Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[mickoo]

The Fairburn is stationary, look at the smoke rising straight up and the wisp of steam under the cab, neither indicate movement.

Note also drawn out couplings, the engine is not pushing or the grade has stretched out the train.

Given the date I suspect it's a works train, possibly for early electrification works?

 

[Osgood]

Sorry Mick I was referring to the 8F - not that you would have known from my poorly worded post, so I have just edited it to clarify.

 

[mickoo]

Sorry Mick I was referring to the 8F - not that you would have known from my poorly worded post, so I have just edited it to clarify.

Yes I know, we posted at the same time, I was referring to the Fairburn, in hindsight, neither look to be moving.

There are extensive sidings at Bushey to the East as seen in this Britain from the air (copyright) crop.



The Fairburn is almost certainly shunting that yard, the 8F may also be waiting to cross back over and set some stock there as well, why you'd do that from the up Fast and not up Slow (if indeed you could) I don't know.

The attached signalling record track plan (good books for 50's - 60's signal box diagrams (I've got most of the WCML) shows probably not.



The 8F is on a van and parcels train, it may well be stopped with the rear end at the station being loaded/unloaded?

 

[Dave Holt]

42096 is in forward gear, but the loose couplings are taught and the buffers separated, so perhaps it's pushed the wagons and is braking to a stop? An acquaintance in the model railway fraternity told me he managed to derail a Fairburn tank, all wheels off, whilst shunting at Watford - caused by the signalman cancelling a move and changing the points after previously clearing the shunt dolly. He was quite proud of his formal , written warning form and thought the whole episode quite hilarious, though he probably didn't find it so at the time.
Lovely photos as always. Please keep them coming Brian.
Dave.

 

[AJC]

The Fairburn is stationary, look at the smoke rising straight up and the wisp of steam under the cab, neither indicate movement.

Note also drawn out couplings, the engine is not pushing or the grade has stretched out the train.

Given the date I suspect it's a works train, possibly for early electrification works?

I think that's all likely, but not an engineer's train; 16 tonners were used for spoil and so on later (but were easily overloaded), but not generally in the steam era as Grampus and Medfits - no one other than the London Midland had much use for the latter and they went to the engineers in the early '60s en masse - were readily available and much more flexible in what you could do with them. That was certainly the case with electrification works on the Southern in the '60s and from what little I've seen, on the WCML as well. Far more likely that coal wagons were engaged in their day job.

Adam

EDIT - as you suggest, I think it's more likely the Fairbairn is shunting the extensive domestic coal yard (the AP shows hardly any vans at all) at Bushey.

 

[LarryG]

I considered this a classic and ran it through the processor. Will remove it if required.

 

[Gadgie]

What caught my eye in the lovely picture of the Fairburn was (i) the clean condition of the engine given the late date, and (ii) the wildly different end door stripes on the mineral wagons.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I would also suggest the aerial photo of Bushey & Oxhey pre-dates the timeframe of these photos as the station buildings had been rebuilt to the 'modern' 1960's style WCML style as this c1962 photo from the t'interweb (below) attests to.

The background also confirms @AJC 's observation of the yard being full of wagons.



And a bit of trivia - Bushey & Oxhey was renamed to Bushey in 1974.

 

[oldravendale]

Tony and Mick. Thanks for the additional observations. It does, indeed, seem likely that the Fairburn tank is stationary. Whether it's actually ready to shunt the goods yard is difficult to say, but it seems a fair distance from the bridge to the station - too far, perhaps? As for the 8F I'd find it difficult to reason it being on the fast lines if shunting the yard and the track diagram makes that look unlikely. I also noted that after the fitted head there are mineral wagons so it's unlikely to be stopped in the station for unloading.

Thanks, Dave, for the reminiscence about the Fairburn at Watford and to Adam for the comments. And Gadgie - those stripes are certainly far from consistent.

Larry. Every image I put up here has been post processed but as we've said previously different people prefer different reproductions..... No need to take it down, though.

Finally, Yorkie Dave, that's an interesting photo of Bushey Station. It certainly confirms the size of the yard, as does Mick's track diagram.

Another here from Bushey Troughs in June 1963. A Princess Coronation is heading North on the fast line. Might that be the Fairburn's train in the background? The loco details are uncertain but I believe it to be 46239 City of Chester which was a Camden engine until August 1963 when it moved to Holyhead, then Willesden and finally Edge Hill at the end of August 1964 before withdrawal in mid September. It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for disposal which was complete by the end of December (BR Database). The SLS agrees with these dates in approximate terms.



Still at Bushey Troughs in June 1963 and Ivatt Class 4 2-6-0 43018 passes light engine in the direction of its home shed, Watford. The loco went to Willesden at the beginning of April 1965 then Stoke in October before withdrawal a year later. It then went to Cohen's at Kettering and was scrapped during April 1967 (BR Database). Again the SLS is in general agreement.



Finally three of Flying Scotsman in Old Oak roundhouse in May 1963. I've done a search for a train around that date for which 4472 might have been intended but have drawn a blank. Certainly the loco can be seen to be in light steam. Perhaps Old Oak was simply its home when in London at that time.



Brian

 

[mickoo]

Brian, the bridge isn't that far from the station and it does depend on how long the Fairburn train is, even then it will have to draw clear as the siding crossover (17) may be track protected and the controlling signal will not be right on top of it.

A quick comparison today with the OS reveals that crossing 17 is about 1200' from the bridge.



A crop of the OS map shows crossing 17 and a signal post on the up slow, unusual to be one there heading toward London as you're well clear of the station and the next block is some distance away, therefore that might be the controlling entrance signal to the yard. Given the Fairburn crews physical stance they may be trying to look back over the train to see that signal, the curve, cutting and bridge supports might obscure it from the other side.



Nice to see the footpath and roundabout (wonder what that was, unlikely to be a bandstand in the middle of allotments, unless the allotments came later as a wartime measure) is still present and gives a good visual link between the two images.

 

[LarryG]

Part of 46239 still exists. Its original Tender is paired with preserved 46229 Duchess of Hamilton.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks again, Mick. The map and photo are pretty convincing! I don't remember the bridge being so close to the station but the last time I stood on that bridge was probably 50 years ago and we were usually looking South.

I didn't know about the tender, Larry. That's a useful little snippet to add to the info about 46239.

BTW, all "Likers" current and in the past, that first image of Flying Scotsman is No 1,000. We've actually not seen 1,000 images yet as, due to the vagaries of the Dale filing system these images start at 314. The set I'm currently working on go up to 4,250 although there are a number in there which will not see the light of a WT day as there are a few family pics and multiple images of the GCR in preservation which is actually the reason Tim and I became friends. Then there are another 461 black and white shots which Tim specifically asked me to scan for him and another over 300 colour images. That should keep us going for a while yet!

I'm tactfully ignoring the drawer full of negs which remains at Tim's erstwhile home and which will come to me in due course.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Finally three of Flying Scotsman in Old Oak roundhouse in May 1963. I've done a search for a train around that date for which 4472 might have been intended but have drawn a blank. Certainly the loco can be seen to be in light steam. Perhaps Old Oak was simply its home when in London at that time.

The Six Bells Junction historic railtour website records 4472 was used on these tours during 1963 - There may well have been more but unrecorded.

20 & 21/04/63 - These legs of the Ffestiniog Railway Society: London Paddington - High Wycombe - Birmingham Snow Hill - Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury - Ruabon. 21/04/63 - Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton - Birmingham (Snow Hill?) - Leamington Spa - Banbury - High Wycombe - London Paddington.

18/05/63 - Isle of Wight Special: Gainsborough - Lincoln - Leicester - Banbury - Southampton - Banbury - Derby - Worksop - Gainsborough.

19/10/63 - These legs of the Ian Allan Western Belle: London Paddington - Slough - Twyford - Reading - Southcote Jn - Bewyn - Devizes - Holt Jn - Bradford Jn - Bathampton - Bath Spa - North Somerset Jn - Bristol Tempel Meads - Worle Jn - Uphill Jn - Bridgwater - Taunton. Returning from Exeter Central - Axminster - Yeovil Junction - Templecombe - Salisbury - Woking - Hampton Court Jn - Clapham Junction - London Waterloo

 

[Martin Shaw]

To further add to Mickoo's comments, the ringed on the map signal post is the Bushey up slow advanced starter and is provided purely to enable movements in and out of the yard to be within Bushey SB station limits and therefore not overly bother the Hatch End signalman. This also helps keeps the "marks" at Hatch End down and potentially save a few bob on the bobbys wages. Notably there isn't a corresponding signal on the up fast.
Regards
Martin

 

[Lyndhurstman]

Dave - Thank you for that additional info which rather completes the history of the loco. As far as Rail UK is concerned I've been having difficulty accessing it since it went on the new server. However, as a result of your post I made a search via a different route and have now established how I can get the info again. Bravo mon brave!!

Tim and Yorkie Dave. Thanks for additional info about London turntables, in this case Waterloo. I had no idea there were so many around London and, I suspect, neither did most of us.

For today a brief intermission on the LMR.

June 1963 at Bushey Troughs with Britannia 70044 Earl Haig. At this time it was on Crewe North's allocation but subsequently moved to Crewe South, Newton Heath and finally Stockport Edgeley in May 1966 (BR Database) or June (SLS). It was withdrawn at the end of October 1966 and went to T W Ward, Beighton where it was scrapped by 20th February 1967 (BR Database and Rail UK).

View attachment 162229

Also at Bushey Troughs on the slow up line in June 1963 is Fairburn 2-6-4T 42096. By the direction the crew is facing it could be shunting, or perhaps more likely a view is being taken along the length of the train. 42096 had been a Watford engine since leaving the Southern Region at the end of 1959, moving to Wllesden and then Lostock Hall in June (BR Database) or July 1965 (SLS). It was withdrawn just before Christmas 1966 (BR Database and SLS) and went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was scrapped during May 1967 (BR Database and Rail UK).

View attachment 162230

Finally for today and still at Bushey Troughs and facing the opposite direction to the first two photos in June 1963 and featuring the water tower. I've spent many happy hours on that bridge watching the spectacle of the expresses dispensing water in every possible direction. This is an unidentified 8F 2-8-0 - I could take a guess at the number but that would need an element of belief! The very mixed train is of interest though - if only we had a better view of it. I assume it has a fitted head, it's on the fast up line although doesn't appear to have the scoop down and here again the crew man appears to be looking backwards - or maybe the scoop is down and he's looking for overflow from the tender.

View attachment 162231

Brian

Some smashing photos, once again. My wagon-centric eye enjoyed the nice non-uniformity in the white diagonal stripe on those two minerals.

Cheers

Jan

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the info about the use of Flying Scotsman in 1963, Dave. Tim actually recorded the Ffestiniog Railway special to which you refer passing through OOC and it is shown in post #1208. I had erroneously copied the date as 30th April and I've now corrected that. We've seen previously that Tim's dates can easily be a month out so I'm satisfied that the photo we have here was either immediately preceding or after that rail tour. Other photos from the same film probably should be back dated a month too.

Thanks, Martin, for the additional Bushey info too. As the evidence builds I'm starting to swing towards the Fairburn tank shunting Bushey sidings.

On to more photos. First is Hornsey in Oct 1960 with 60111 Enterprise passing - except that 60111 didn't receive the smoke deflectors until March or April 1962 (SLS) so the photo must be after that date. Nevertheless the loco had been at its final shed, Grantham, since 1957. It was withdrawn from there at the end of December 1962. It went to Doncaster for scrapping which was completed by early April 1963 (BR Database, SLS and Rail UK).



Tim's notes record this as "Redhill-Reading Line Taken in the vicinity of Dorking Town Station Jun 63." The loco is U1 31899 and possibly taken from the train featured below. 31899 was a resident at Norwood Junction from 10th October 1961 from where it was withdrawn at the end of December 1962 (BR Database) although the SLS says it was shedded at Salisbury from 26th May 1961 although both agree on the withdrawal date. The lack of a shed plate suggests that withdrawal had certainly occurred when this photo was taken although we don't know the precise location of the shed. There's also an SLS record of the loco being at Eastleigh on 11th September 1963 "Waiting works or scrap". BR Database records a scrapping date of November 1963 so it is highly likely that 31899 was scrapped on site at Eastleigh.



Four very similar shots here, all recorded as "Redhill-Reading Line Taken in the vicinity of Dorking Town Station Jun 63." Tim's originals are in portrait format and my remasks are landscape. Very little more to go on, I'm afraid, except that the loco appears to be a Standard class 4MT 2-6-4T.





Brian

 

[Jeremy Good]

The first of the "Reading to Redhill" photos showing 31899 looks to be a photo of Redhill shed taken from a train running between Redhill and Earlswood. The tunnel mouth on the extreme right of the photo looks like the Quarry Line tunnel - the fast, Redhill avoiding, line.

The photos of the 4MT and train are more difficult to locate.

 

[AJC]

Thank you once again for sharing these, Brian. The train loco 'somewhere near Dorking' certainly is a Standard 4 tank - that would be usual fare on these trains, I think.

My eye was drawn by the selection of mineral wagons at Hornsey, all nicely varied.

From left you can see:

• 'SNCF' cupboard door type (BR dia. 1/112: BR/SNCF 16T Mineral MoS cupboard door) which has been partially replated - you can see the joins on the ends and sides.
• Next is a RCH 1923 spec' wagon almost devoid of paint;
• Next a common 1/108, welded type per the Airfix kit;
• The riveted wagon beyond has a pressed steel end door which makes it either a 1/105 (ex-Ministry of War Transport) or 1/109 (BR, mostly contractor built) - if I could see the brakes more clearly I could tell for certain as the former had independent brakes;
• Beyond that is another ex-MWT wagon, a diagram 1/102 (the lack of top door and apparent independent brakes mark that out), before we start to get repeats, in the form of more 1/108 and RCH type minerals.

Adam

EDIT - the gist of all this is that if you're modelling that interesting period in wagon development from the end of the Second World War to c.1962, you can treat yourself to any mineral wagon design that takes your fancy. After that, maybe be more selective?

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The first of the "Reading to Redhill" photos showing 31899 looks to be a photo of Redhill shed taken from a train running between Redhill and Earlswood. The tunnel mouth on the extreme right of the photo looks like the Quarry Line tunnel - the fast, Redhill avoiding, line.

I concur - this is the NLS OS 1:1250/1:2,500 1944/70 part map of the area and the Quarry Line tunnel south entrance is circled





As the Reading-Redhill line was only electrified on two sections at that time; Reading-Wokingham and Reigate-Redhill (but not including the short stretch of the electrified main line around Guildford these trains traversed between Shalford Junction and Guildford) it's quite easy to narrow down where the photos of the 4MT and train were taken. I would categorically say they were taken on the curve out of Redhill heading towards Reigate. The first photo of the pair shows the lone house on the left at the top of the cutting next to the bridge.



To place some context of the area this is the 1:25,000 OS map. The blue circles are the north and south entrances of the Quarry line tunnel. Redhill-Tonbridge line curving away to the bottom right and Redhill-Reading to the centre left. I believe the Tonbridge-Redhill section was electrified much later following the introduction of the Eurostar services to provide an additional diversionary route.



As an aside the coaching stock is Maunsell 8' Hastings gauge as there is a lack of tumblehome as seen on the 8'6'' Eastern Section stock.

 

[oldravendale]

Jeremy - that's really helpful, as is Yorkshire Dave's confirmation. As ever the info will be added to the description.

Adam - thank you for the confirmation of the loco and for the description of all those mineral wagons.

For today more "Redhill-Reading Line Taken in the vicinity of Dorking Town Station June 1963." In all these shots the coaching stock looks of interest but my personal knowledge is insufficient to identify it. Class U 2-6-0 No 31628 passes an unknown location with no shed plate. It had been at Guildford since 1950 and was withdrawn from there on 14th June 1964. It was broken up at Cashmore's Newport in December the same year (BR Database and SLS).

The first photo is Tim's original full frame and the second is my remask of the same negative.



Next, also "Redhill-Reading Line Taken in the vicinity of Dorking Town Station June 1963." Another 2-6-0 but this time an N Class No 31821 carrying a 70C Guildford shed plate where it had been since December 1961. It went to Exmouth Junction in August or September 1963 and was withdrawn from there on 14th May 1964 (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped by October of the same year but the yard involved is unknown (BR Database, SLS and Rail UK).



The final shot for today from "Redhill-Reading Line Taken in the vicinity of Dorking Town Station June 1963." shows BR Standard Class 4 2-6-0 No 76033 carrying an undecipherable shed plate. This was a Brighton engine in June 1963 but moved to Guildford in September before going to Eastleigh at the beginning of 1965. It moved back to Guildford in June 1966 from where it was withdrawn in January or February 1967. It went to Cashmore's Newport for scrapping where the deed was done during September the same year (BR Database and SLS).



Brian