Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[AJC]

Finally "October 1960 Unknown loco Query M7 Crossing River Adur near Shoreham". I've had the benefit of being able to study a considerable enlargement and I'm confident that this is, indeed, an M7.

View attachment 163000

Brian

Hi Brian - at that date it couldn't really be anything else: it's too big for an H (and in the wrong area), the wrong shape for either an E4 or an Ivatt 2 and anything else had been withdrawn or was shedded so far away (the O2s at Plymouth Friary) as to be not worth considering. The coaching stock is readily identifiable: it's a 1960 pull and push conversion from Maunsell corridor stock with a strengthener, likely also fitted for that sort of working and almost certainly an ex-SECR 100 seater per the pair preserved at the Bluebell.

Adam

 

[mickoo]

What's interesting about the Hornsey shot is all the main line signals set to clear, I've not checked 9th Jun 63 but suspect it's a Sunday and the signal box is locked out for the day.

The 46245 special is heading North, the fly over (rebuilt in 1961 to remove the center bow truss span) in the background is just north of Harringay station and called as such (Harringay up goods flyover).

Tim is technically standing in what is called Ferme Park up goods, about half way between Harringay and Hornsey stations. The signal box is Ferme Park North Down and Tim is a long way from any public access point.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Don't know about the WR which frankly I doubt but 31891 is a U1 rather than a U, not easy to tell the difference in this view, w/dn 6/4/63, cut up at Eastleigh we 8/6/63. A well travelled engine, the furthest westwards it was shedded was Exmouth Junc and the furthest east Bricklayers Arms, with most of the central division in between.

Martin

 

[oldravendale]

I've not gone away, just been tied up with a number of projects with which I won't bore you. So we'll continue where I left off as though nothing has happened.

Firstly my grateful thanks for the additional info from Adam, Mick and Martin. I'm remiss in not at the least acknowledging the trouble you've taken to flesh out some pretty thin details.

We're moving now in to what will appear to be a confusion of photos and dates. These are as they came out of the shoebox and were scanned so we'll be back and forth for a bit, but it all adds to the variety.

We'll start with A4 60021, Wild Swan on the "Heart of Midlothian" at Kings Cross in October 1960. This loco was a long time resident of Kings Cross Top Shed, arriving in June 1950 and not leaving until June 1963 when it moved to New England. It was withdrawn from New England in the following October and was scrapped, I suppose rather appropriately, at its birthplace of Doncaster in January 1964 (all BR Database and SLS).

In the second photo Thompson L1 2-6-4T 67779 can be glimpsed. It was itself a Kings Cross engine at the time, moving to Colwick before withdrawal in December 1962. (BR Database and SLS).



This next one is, to be frank, a bit uncertain. It's titled "Kings Cross October 1960" but I truly don't know whether that's where it was photographed although the date of the photo is in line with the other photos around it. Quite honestly that steep street makes Kings Cross rather unlikely in my view, although it's a part of London which has changed enormously since the photo was taken. I particularly like the Ford parked outside the Old Curiosity Shop. Maybe this scene with its interesting roof profiles will stimulate a modelling project?



Finally for this set, back to Shoreham and the River Adur in October 1960.



Brian

 

[Osgood]

This next one is, to be frank, a bit uncertain. It's titled "Kings Cross October 1960" but I truly don't know whether that's where it was photographed although the date of the photo is in line with the other photos around it. Quite honestly that steep street makes Kings Cross rather unlikely in my view, although it's a part of London which has changed enormously since the photo was taken. I particularly like the Ford parked outside the Old Curiosity Shop.

MX (Middlesex) registration fits in I guess.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

This next one is, to be frank, a bit uncertain. It's titled "Kings Cross October 1960" but I truly don't know whether that's where it was photographed although the date of the photo is in line with the other photos around it. Quite honestly that steep street makes Kings Cross rather unlikely in my view, although it's a part of London which has changed enormously since the photo was taken. I particularly like the Ford parked outside the Old Curiosity Shop. Maybe this scene with its interesting roof profiles will stimulate a modelling project?

This is in The Lanes, Brighton.

The 'House of Correction' Part I

The 'House of Correction' Part II

Also found this on t'interweb from an old postcard.

 

[MarkR]

Nice TR!

 

[3 LINK]

Finally "October 1960 Unknown loco Query M7 Crossing River Adur near Shoreham". I've had the benefit of being able to study a considerable enlargement and I'm confident that this is, indeed, an M7.


View attachment 163000

Brian

Good evening Brian,

Regarding the above photo, the M7 did not cross the River Adur but is running along the east side of the river and was heading north towards Bramber and Steyning and on upto Guildford I would expect.

Cheers,

Martyn.

 

[mickoo]

I've not gone away, just been tied up with a number of projects with which I won't bore you. So we'll continue where I left off as though nothing has happened.

Firstly my grateful thanks for the additional info from Adam, Mick and Martin. I'm remiss in not at the least acknowledging the trouble you've taken to flesh out some pretty thin details.

We're moving now in to what will appear to be a confusion of photos and dates. These are as they came out of the shoebox and were scanned so we'll be back and forth for a bit, but it all adds to the variety.

We'll start with A4 60021, Wild Swan on the "Heart of Midlothian" at Kings Cross in October 1960. This loco was a long time resident of Kings Cross Top Shed, arriving in June 1950 and not leaving until June 1963 when it moved to New England. It was withdrawn from New England in the following October and was scrapped, I suppose rather appropriately, at its birthplace of Doncaster in January 1964 (all BR Database and SLS).

In the second photo Thompson L1 2-6-4T 67779 can be glimpsed. It was itself a Kings Cross engine at the time, moving to Colwick before withdrawal in December 1962. (BR Database and SLS).

View attachment 166784View attachment 166785
Brian

Mmmm A4 and ECML, now we're getting to the good stuff

 

[oldravendale]

Dave - that is brilliant! I've no idea how you found that but you are clearly correct and I know Tim was posted to Brighton for his National Service. Despite my daughter now living in Brighton and feeling that I know the town quite well I'd certainly not recognised it. Thank you.

Thanks also to Martyn for correcting the info I had about this photo. Duly corrected in "Properties".

And Mick -

Mmmm A4 and ECML, now we're getting to the good stuff

There is certainly more to come - a few very soon at Kings Cross in 1960, but these will arrive via quite a convoluted route.

However, more at Shoreham. These two are described as "M7 30052 on Brighton - Horsham Push-Pull by River Adur Estuary near Shoreham October 1960". 30052 was a Brighton engine from June 1960 whence it moved to Nine Elms in May 1961. It ended its days at Bournemouth from where it was withdrawn in May 1964. It was disposed of at T W Ward, Briton Ferry, by the end of October the same year.



We're now moving to some of Tim's earliest pictures. This one is described as "Unknown 8P Euston Summer 1959." It was unknown because the neg was so badly underexposed that details were difficult to read from it, however it's 70049 on the Irish Mail at the old Euston. At the time it was not named which rather confirms the date for us as naming as Solway Firth did not occur until May 1960. 70049 moved around a fair bit in 1959 and in the absence of a decipherable shed plate it's difficult to know where it was allocated at the time of the photo. It started at Hollyhead and moved in early November to Chester and later the same month to Crewe North before ending up at Camden in December. Eventually it was withdrawn from Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1967 before going to J McWilliams at Shettleston where it was scrapped in March 1968. (BR Database - the SLS details follow the same pattern but are different by a few days).



Brian

 

[AJC]

Dave - that is brilliant! I've no idea how you found that but you are clearly correct and I know Tim was posted to Brighton for his National Service. Despite my daughter now living in Brighton and feeling that I know the town quite well I'd certainly not recognised it. Thank you.

Thanks also to Martyn for correcting the info I had about this photo. Duly corrected in "Properties".

And Mick -

There is certainly more to come - a few very soon at Kings Cross in 1960, but these will arrive via quite a convoluted route.

However, more at Shoreham. These two are described as "M7 30052 on Brighton - Horsham Push-Pull by River Adur Estuary near Shoreham October 1960". 30052 was a Brighton engine from June 1960 whence it moved to Nine Elms in May 1961. It ended its days at Bournemouth from where it was withdrawn in May 1964. It was disposed of at T W Ward, Briton Ferry, by the end of October the same year.

View attachment 166853View attachment 166854


Brian

Those are quite nice. The second is more notable for the lorry content than the railway. Three of the Army's 'Commer-cabbed Fords', more correctly described as a Fordson Thames E4. They had a V8 petrol engine and were thus very thirsty - many went into civilian service, usually with new engines, as Timber tractors and the like. All were rail portable, even the Ambulance versions (just), though those with tilts had them lowered for transit:

Army lorries in transit at Hove Station, Summer 1965 by Ian Nolan, on Flickr

Ford Thames E4 3 ton 4x4 truck LAA tractor FV13303, 1952 | Online Collection | National Army Museum, London

collection.nam.ac.uk

Adam

EDIT - PS, I have a pair of the ambulances intended as loads for lowmacs - must finish those...

 

[oldravendale]

Adam - again, grateful thanks. It's wonderful the way this thread quite often takes us down some fascinating rabbit holes, and this could well be one of them. Duly added to the photo details.

There's another photo here which failed to attach to the post this morning, and I've been struggling to get it to attach since then. The original description was img1050 TM 61666 B17 Clacton Dep L'pool St Summer 1959 copyright Final.jpg which was the title under which I tried to attach it but it'd have none of it. I reduced the file size and changed permissions with no effect. Then I entirely dropped the description and just called it img1050.jpg, and it attached OK. I then changed L'pool to Liverpool and that attaches too, so it's something to do with that apostrophe. Perhaps some one who's now out of the stone age with their tech abilities will tell me why the initial attachment failed to attach numerous times - well, it did attach the title but with no picture.

Anyway, to complete the set for today, and it's quite obvious why I wanted this to work because it is, as indicated above, B17 61666, Nottingham Forest, at Liverpool Street (perhaps unusually on the electric side of the station) in the summer of 1959 and photographed from the cab road which I personally remember so well as the best vantage point. There's some electric stock in view for those interested in such things although I'm hard put to establish what it is. Anyway, 61666 was a Colchester engine in the summer of 1959, moving to Stratford in November and being withdrawn in March the following year. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Stratford works with indecent haste by the end of the month. (Rail UK)



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Well, following my earlier post and comments about the travails of getting a photo to attach it appears that no-one in this august collection understands why it failed either. I'll put it in the "nobody knows" box.....

For today, no such issues and a few photos which will hopefully fill Mickoo with joy. The first two are in Tim's original format and I've also tightened up the framing of those two shots accounting for the first four photos. To start with A4 60027 Merlin backing out of Kings Cross in the summer of 1959 having brought in "The Elizabethan" and not a diesel in sight. Merlin is carrying a 64B Haymarket shed plate which agrees with the known allocation at the time. It went to St Margarets in September 1964 by way of St Rollox but lasted only a year thereafter being withdrawn in September 1965. It was scrapped in December at Campbells, Shieldhall. (BR Database and SLS).



This next one is, to me at least, rather more exciting as it's one of the humdrum and therefore less photographed subjects. This is L1 2-6-4T 67794 bringing empty stock in to Kings Cross, again in Summer 1959. The train looks, to me, to be compartment stock which suggests a local service and it was rather unusual to see locals leaving the main station. It's difficult to determine whether the shed plate is 34A Kings Cross or 34F, Grantham. 67794 was a Kings Cross Top Shed loco from November 1959 but previously at Grantham which would have been a fair distance for a tank loco to travel to get as far as the smoke. It went back to Grantham in May 1961 and was withdrawn in the following October. (BR Database and SLS) It was then recorded in Darlington scrap yard in the November by the SLS. Rail UK confirms disposal at Darlington by the year end.



Finally for today another A4, 60026 Miles Beevor having arrived on the Flying Scotsman at the buffer stops in Kings Cross in Summer 1959. This loco has a particular resonance for me as I saw it on every visit I made to Kings Cross. It carries the Kings Cross 34A shed plate where it was allocated at the time. It moved away in June 1963 eventually ending up at Aberdeen Ferryhill in April 1964 for use on the three hour expresses from Aberdeen to Glasgow. It was nonetheless withdrawn in December 1965 although disposal took a while as it lasted until September 1967. Whether it was stored at Hughes Bolckows (North Blyth) scrapyard for all this time is unknown.



Brian

 

[daifly]

There's another photo here which failed to attach to the post this morning, and I've been struggling to get it to attach since then. The original description was img1050 TM 61666 B17 Clacton Dep L'pool St Summer 1959 copyright Final.jpg which was the title under which I tried to attach it but it'd have none of it. I reduced the file size and changed permissions with no effect. Then I entirely dropped the description and just called it img1050.jpg, and it attached OK. I then changed L'pool to Liverpool and that attaches too, so it's something to do with that apostrophe.

Hi Brian

You've solved your own problem. Prohibited characters in filenames include # < > % { } * ? $ ! ' + ` | =

Get rid of the apostrophe and the problem goes with it.

Dave

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
The pictures of Merlin show two movements. In the first the radius rod is in the lower portion of the expansion link and therefore is in forward gear and the signal above the tender is at danger (no display in the route indicator), in the second the radius rod is now in the reverse gear position and the signal is off with the route indicator displaying M2 (Down Main No2) which is the right hand line looking north in the western most tunnel. It's also on a different line. Also in the first the fireman is looking forward and in the second backwards. Now if the loco is bound for Top Shed which seems most likely then the choice of line is odd since it merges with the Down Main No1 to become the Down Main at Belle Isle Down SB immediately to the north of Gasworks Tunnel and there is no obvious route at Copenhagen SB to Goods and Mineral Junc SB and the shed. It seems to me at some time and distance that the down slow or down main 1 would have provided an easier approach.

In the first pic of Wild Swan at K'sX there is in the far corner a Mk1 in carmine and cream which is quite a late survivor in that livery I would suggest, most especially on a reasonably main line service.
Regards
Martin

 

[mickoo]

Anyway, to complete the set for today, and it's quite obvious why I wanted this to work because it is, as indicated above, B17 61666, Nottingham Forest, at Liverpool Street (perhaps unusually on the electric side of the station) in the summer of 1959 and photographed from the cab road which I personally remember so well as the best vantage point. There's some electric stock in view for those interested in such things although I'm hard put to establish what it is. Anyway, 61666 was a Colchester engine in the summer of 1959, moving to Stratford in November and being withdrawn in March the following year. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Stratford works with indecent haste by the end of the month. (Rail UK)

View attachment 166881

Brian

Nothing unusual at all, perfectly normal procedure

Platform 11 was always East Anglia departures to Norwich, Clacton, Harwich etc. Platform 10 on the other side of the taxi rank (RH in this picture) were East Anglia Arrivals. In my days (early 80's) 10,11 or 12 could be arrival or departure (from Ipswich- Norwich trains), but 90% arrived on 10 and departed from 11 and very occasionally in on 12.

Platform 9 was an odd one, arrivals and departures to Central Anglia, mainly Cambridge and Kings Lynn.

Given the shadows on the ground this looks like a late morning/early afternoon departure and given the choice of motive power is probably for Clacton or more as likely to Harwich for a boat departure. Britannia's held sway on the Norwich turns but B17 were not unknown to Norwich and this being a Colchester engine puts more weight on a Clacton or Harwich service.

This side of the taxi rank was the East side and the electric trains served Southend and Shenfield, originally 1500V DC it was later converted to 25Kv AC; The conversion took place around 1960.

In the background is an AM7 unit, built in 1956 and converted to 25Kv in 1960, you can just make out the five indicator lamps under the 2nd mans window, usually a very good indication it's still 1500V DC, only the AM6 (306) and AM7 (307) had these.

Of little interest here, AM6 were close (earlier) cousins of the Woodhead 506 class, the AM6 was built in 1949, the 506 in 1954.

The AM codes were GEML only as far as I'm aware, later BR gave them numbers, 3xx was Overhead AC, 4xx was SR DC and 5xx was a mish mash of everything else DC, covering Woodhead, North London Line, Wirral and Merseyside.

Even further afield interest wise, the first EM1's (76) were tested on unfitted freights out of Ilford between Shenfield and Stratford until enough of the Woodhead line was electrified to carry out testing closer to home.

The West side was electrified later in the early 60's and was always 25Kv AC, those services ran to central and west Anglia and split off the GEML at the first station (Bethnal Green) out of Liverpool Street.

 

[mickoo]

Brian
The pictures of Merlin show two movements. In the first the radius rod is in the lower portion of the expansion link and therefore is in forward gear and the signal above the tender is at danger (no display in the route indicator), in the second the radius rod is now in the reverse gear position and the signal is off with the route indicator displaying M2 (Down Main No2) which is the right hand line looking north in the western most tunnel. It's also on a different line. Also in the first the fireman is looking forward and in the second backwards. Now if the loco is bound for Top Shed which seems most likely then the choice of line is odd since it merges with the Down Main No1 to become the Down Main at Belle Isle Down SB immediately to the north of Gasworks Tunnel and there is no obvious route at Copenhagen SB to Goods and Mineral Junc SB and the shed. It seems to me at some time and distance that the down slow or down main 1 would have provided an easier approach.

In the first pic of Wild Swan at K'sX there is in the far corner a Mk1 in carmine and cream which is quite a late survivor in that livery I would suggest, most especially on a reasonably main line service.
Regards
Martin

Engines arriving on the East side of the station (Platforms 1-5) did not have a direct route out to Belle Isle.

Engines would back out to the North Spur between the Eastern and Central Gasworks tunnel bores, then draw forward to either Platform 6, 7, 8, in this case 8 by the look of things.

Then they would back out through the west bores of Gas works tunnel (Down Fast & Slow) to Goods & Mineral (Via Copenhagen) at Belle Isle and then reverse back to top shed.

 

[michael mott]

I do enjoy looking in on this thread, I am always intrigued by the knowledge that you all share and how observant you all are. I was at Kings Cross shed once while a lad growing up in London, I went there with a couple of friends John Womphrey, and Geoffrey Gardner collecting numbers I was around 11 years old at the time so 1959 We were standing on the turntable in the shed when an A4 trundled onto it, we stood there transfixed as the turntable began to move the the A4 rolled off presumably toward the station. A moment of my childhood I shall never forget!

Thanks for jogging my memory.
Michael

 

[Martin Shaw]

Following Mick's useful post and my own signalling info, given the loco is reversing toward down main 2 which doesn't have easy access to top shed at Copenhagen I wonder if it is in fact going to the station yard, which can be accessed from DM2 by further reversals. It may have the Elizabethan headboard but since coal is still visible in the tender it obviously hasn't come from Edinburgh, possibly only Grantham so I think a quick clean of the fire and a splash round should see it going north again quite quickly. Any thoughts?
Martin

 

[mickoo]

Martin, if he runs down DM2 (which merges with DS at Copenhagen) then he'll have to run past Copenhagen box and set back over the Down South London Goods (DSLG) and into Top shed, it's not an easy route for sure. Copenhagen is one of the few Kings X area box diagrams I've not yet managed to find.

If he ran down the Down slow (DS) then he can cut straight up the (DSLG) ramp, then switch back to Top shed and not get involved with Copenhagen as the Goods & Mineral deals with that switch. He could of course not take the freight ramp and merge with DM2 and follow the path in the first paragraph, now that would be going the long way around!

Ironically if he took DM1 in the middle bore, which can be accessed from Platforms 1-5, then he can cut right across DM2 and DS (before they merge) on the other side of Gasworks to pick up the DSLG ramp to Top shed.

I'm not sure where engines reversed at Copenhagen/Goods & Mineral when coming up the DSLG, do they run up to the Up Goods or run onto the Down goods, either way one part of the journey will be bang road. My gut is they stop on the hump opposite Copenhagen box and then set back to Top shed and avoid both goods lines (of Ladykillers fame)

Given that the engine probably arrived on P1-5 and has easy access to Top shed from there, but didn't and is now shunting on the East side, then it's fair to assume he'll head down into DM2 and then back (via Shunt 100 if your diagram is the same as mine) into Passenger Loco for a quick turn and top up.