Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Northroader]

Besides the ECS sidings in the OOC, there was also a group of sidings on the south side of the main line just before the flyover was reached, sitting at the same level as the flyover approach. Then there was also Paddington Yard, the down main line as it left the station kept close to the retaining wall, and there were a few carriage sidings between this and the up main. Light engine moves could go there as well, with a pilot shunting engine leading into the buffer stops.
At the Festival of Britain in 1951, besides the English Electric diesel up at the side of the viaduct, there was also a brand new Britannia Pacific on show. For me, this was the first bit of the new “British Railways” I had experienced, and I was very impressed. The private manufacturers were represented by a large 4-8-2 for export to India, and history by the Buddicom 2-2-2 on loan from France.

 

[Dog Star]

The lines to the left of the loco are the flyover up and down E&C but there is no facility to cross from up to down which is why the engine is comimg from the direction it is. I think if it were a light engine move from Padd it would have come over the flyover, why wouldn't it?

I think - needs to be confirmed - that the flyover was a single line and not signalled for both way running.

 

[Martin Shaw]

I think some caution might be needed here in case we start getting into different eras. Micks diagram is Padd departure signalling which I think will have been modernised by the opening of Old Oak signalbox in 1962, which took over the work previously done by OO West, OO East, and Friars Junc. OLd Oak box albeit power operated wasn't really a PSB in the moderns sense of it and a OO PSB was opened in 1967 which did away with all the GWR boxes east of OO. I can't really add anything other than my own further unsubstantiated thoughts to ECS and LE working on the WR so can't usefully comment further. In reply to Dog Star, assuming we are talking about the same flyover, was there more than one, certainly in 1962 onwards there was a double line of rails called "Up and Down Engine & Carriage". I assume E&C stands for what I think, I can quite imagine that post steam operations ECS working diminished significantly and a single line provided adequate capacity.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the additional stuff, Martin. I was about to respond by saying that I don't remember and none of Tim's photos, despite the many at Old Oak, show a light loco on the ramp up to the flyover - then I found one of a Castle tender first on the ramp backing towards Paddington. The fact that it's a loco going towards Paddington makes it equally likely that the flyover could have been used for locos coming light from Paddington (but see Graham's post above). The question that raises, I suppose, is why our Castle/King should not be taking that route which you may have answered. And you are right, I've yet to remember a photo of a light loco running from Paddington to Old Oak tender first.

Thanks Mick for your additional info too. Based on the photographic evidence we have in this collection of trains at the buffer stops in Paddington it seems that most empty stock was brought in by 57XX/94XX/15XX pannier tanks and when they were relieved of suburban passenger duties 61XX 2-6-2Ts, usually smokebox end facing towards Paddington which would agree with your proposal. That's not to say that bigger engines never brought empty stock in to Paddington but I suggest it was relatively unusual.

Then Northroader raises the issue of the pilot engine at Paddington. Although convoluted maybe empty stock was moved to Paddington by large locos intended for express work out of the station and then handed over to the pilot to position. One thing which seems very unlikely from the available evidence is that carriage stock was backed in to Paddington. (Thanks too for your info about the Festival of Britain).

Then Graham - you rotter - throws another confusion in to the mix. I can't comment on whether the flyover line was single track or not. Certainly from the position of the footbridge it can be seen to be double track, but did it become single later on? I've also yet to find a photo (though memory is becoming somewhat confused now) of an ECS coming down the ramp to OOC. That may, of course, be due to Tim's wish to photograph the most dynamic pictures of locos working against the gradient but the lack of any photo at all of such a movement in itself seems a bit odd.

So I'm now thoroughly confused about the possibilities but confused at a much higher level than I was before this discussion began. The next photos will add to that confusion.

So I'm now going to do what this thread is all about and put up some more photos.

Paddington, March 1963 and here's Castle 7005 Sir Edward Elgar, reporting number A22 in place, heading in to the station with passengers visible in the coaches. We 've seen the loco previously, so if you want details go to post #1218.



Here it is again, but in this case, judging by the positions of the crew and the steam, looking as though it's still going in to the station.



But now apparently and judging by the crew man looking backwards backing its train out of Paddington and with the reporting number removed from the frame! I'm keeping quiet about the possible train movement and will be interested to see how it keeps the conversation going.

Edit. Another couple of thoughts about this one. The cylinder drain cocks are open and the loco doesn't appear to be putting any effort in to moving the train. I wander if the whole ensemble has been collected by one of the tank locos and the coaching stock will move to the coaching sidings with the loco being dropped off at Ranelagh Road for turning. Despite having brought a passenger train in to Paddington there's still loads of coal in that tender. The front lamp position has been changed too, from express passenger to (possibly) light engine or more likely a tail lamp.

Note the then new DMU behind the loco.



Brian

 

[mickoo]

Martin,

The Padd signal diagram is 1961 and I think pre any signalling and track rationalizations, though I may be wrong.

Brian, interesting shots, the first two are engine arriving for sure, the third is an ECS move but the Castle is not (appears not) doing any work, I suggest to relieve pathing that the train is being taken back by a shunting engine at the country end and the Castle is going for a free (path) ride back to OOC.

I'd like to know what train A22 is because despite arriving at Paddington, it still has a healthy load of coal, therefore my previous image of 7007 may not have been a light engine move, the lack of coal use is not a clear indication of an engines movement.

Did the GWR swap engines at Swindon, Didcot or Reading, I don't believe they did but I'm not a GWR acolyte so will take advice. The LNER changed engines at Doncaster and quite a lot at Grantham, LMR was Crewe unless it was a Liverpool, Manchester or Chester/Holyhead run.

Looking through GWRJ (the four main volumes are 73, 76, 78, 82 and there are probably more that I don't have concerning Paddington) the arrivals and departures are more distinct that I imagined, the June 54 timetable has all expresses arriving at platforms 8 through to 11, only three trains in 24 hrs arrive at Platform 7. Departures for the same date are all 1 to 4 with only 6 trains departing from platform 5.

Platforms 5-7 are predominately used for locals and parcels as are 14 and 15 with a few from 10, 11 and 12.

Back to OOC flyover, it was double track in 1926 and those tracks were UP (northern line) and DN (southern line) carriage, the DN carriage terminated at Westbourne park next to Portabello Jct SB. Only the UP carriage continues into Paddington and splits into two as seen on the previous diagram just West of Ranelagh Road.

Back even further to Brians photo that kicked all this off the running lines are thus.



1: UP Carriage/ECS via flyover.
2: DN Carriage from Westbourne Park via flyover, terminates at Westbourne Park.
3: Not named but joins 4 about 1/2 mile distant, could well be LE avoiding allowing light engines to run around stationary goods on line 4.
4: UP Goods which terminates in goods shed behind Royal Oak.
5: DN Goods and Carriage/ECS, this splits at Westbourne Park, DN goods goes to the goods depot behind Royal Oak, DN Carriage goes into Paddington.

So, we still know naff all, if the engine is coming off line 5 then it is a LE back to OOC, but if it is going forward it may take the LH switch at the single slip, run on the UP Goods (line 4) and then cross all lines at MP 1¾ to get to the UP Carriage. My gut feeling is that it's the first option and the engine is running back to OOC. I would expect LE to Paddington to take the LH pair of these lines and join line 3 or 4 which are both UP lines to Paddington.

The answer is for Brian to enlarge the single slip under the bridge, it the route is straight the engine is LE to OOC, if it is diverging then it maybe LE to Paddington.

I don't think the tracks changed names much if at all between 1926 and the above 1961 signalling diagram, certainly those lines on both diagrams do align and match.

 

[Dave Holt]

Now, if the GWR had fitted its locos with outside valvegear, like proper railways did, it would be easy to determine the direction of travel.
Dave.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Mick
There was a subtle renaming in late 62 although operationally I expect it made very little difference. Lines 1 & 2 were the up and down engine and carriage lines that flew over the whole shebang and reconnected with the rest of the world at Ladbroke Grove SB. Line 3 was the "up engine line siding" which as you say connected with line 4 a bit nearer Padd. Lines 4 and 5 were as your post except line 5 was just the "down goods and carriage". Interestingly there is a signalled move from lines 2 to 5 inclusive to Old Oak shed so whilst I agree it's going backwards I don't think you can place too much reliance on the lay of points behind a move, a lot of traps/points were self restoring after occupation and release of a track circuit. I think we may be trying to be a bit too clever here, it feels dangerously like we are making the story fit far too little evidence, he said rather unconvincingly.

Engine swaps mid journey on the GWR were I think unusual, they had mastered the art of making locomotives that could go more than 60 miles without breaking down. As a child I was taken by my parents to Bridgewater a fair bit, according to my late father it was almost always a Castle at the sharp end and the train would either be a Taunton or Exeter with stops at Reading, Swindon, Bath maybe, Bristol TM, and he was insistent that engines weren't changed en route, it was a long time ago.
I think the GWR has had a good go today.
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

My gut feeling is that it's the first option and the engine is running back to OOC. I would expect LE to Paddington to take the LH pair of these lines and join line 3 or 4 which are both UP lines to Paddington.

After reading all the comments regarding this photo I would concur the loco is returning to the sheds - otherwise it would be wrong line working if it was travelling forwards and why would it display a light engine headcode on the rear?

Also if the loco had come off shed wouldn't more of the cab interior be obscured by a full coal load or didn't the WR heap their tenders in the same way as other regions.

Since the photo was taken late in the winter or spring afternoon given the length of shadows cast by the footbridge the photo was taken from to me it would imply the loco has more than likely come off an earlier West Country or 'local' departure.

On another note having looked around the photo rather than the subject in question it is evident the Grand Union Canal is higher than the railway judging by the leaching salts from the retaining wall on the left and nice to think Tim is still with us as I suspect this is his shadow.

 

[Brian Daniels]

Loco is I would say backing onto Old Oak after coming out the carriage sidings and reversing under the bridge. If it isn't it's just SPAD'ed a Limit of Shunt board!

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for all the efforts about this, Mick. In particular the last one about the route set. Here's the photo suitably enlarged from the original TIFF transfer then back to jpeg. I believe it shows the route.



I'll follow up all the other stuff, probably tomorrow. But thanks for everything in expanding the discussion.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Mick, Martin, Yorkie Dave and Brian. We've collected a load of info over this thread about loco and train movements around OOC. Thanks for trying to reach a conclusion which, I suspect, will be impossible. However, right now it looks as though the loco is probably backing on to the shed. Having said that we have photos of two ECS trains side by side on those very tracks waiting to make the charge up the incline, so they must have been bi-directional if they are allowing movements on to the shed.

Also, Dave, I'm taken by your suggestion that Tim's shadow is in the photo.

Anyway, onwards with some more stimulation!

This is March 1963 at Paddington. From the look of the crewman viewing the road behind the loco it's backing out of the station with a parcels coach. I've given up trying to make sense of the lamp codes! The loco is 94XX 8481 carrying an 81A Old Oak shed plate. It went new to Cardiff Cathays in 1952 and ended at OOC via Barry (Shed) in March 1963 so was a new arrival when this photo was taken. It was withdrawn in June 1965 and is recorded as scrapped in October. (BRDatabase). Unfortunately I can't access RailUK to confirm where this occurred.



Also at Paddington in March 1963 is Modified Hall 7914 Lleweni Hall displaying an 81D Reading shed plate. It left there for St Phillips Marsh in April 1964 going to Bristol Barrow Road in June. It was withdrawn at the end of 1965 and went to Cashmore's, Newport, where it was scrapped by the end of May 1966. (BRDatabase)



Now back to the LMR and South Kenton April 1963. This calls in to question the description of earlier photos where this location is described as North Wembley. In this shot, top left hand corner is a station name board and allowing for the fact that it's out of focus that looks a lot more like South Kenton than it does North Wembley. Further research shows that North Wembley is pretty much a clone of Kenton, with a road overbridge at the country end of the platforms on which sits the station booking hall whereas the station at South Kenton is accessed via an underpass and is an island platform. So, South Kenton it is and I'll go back and change the description against the earlier photos.

Anyway, this is Royal Scot 46125 3rd Carabinier. In March 1963 it was a Crewe North engine moving to Holyhead on 20th April. It ended up at Annesley in September 1963 by way of Crewe North, Holyhead again and Willesden. Withdrawal came from Annesley in October 1964 and it went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped by the end of January 1965. (BRDatabase)



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

South Kenton, April 1963 with Fairburn 2-6-4T 42221 on a lengthy freight. The location is certain - The Windermere pub still exists, is listed and is at South Kenton. I don't know what that loco lamp position signifies. 42221 was a Willesden engine at the time moving to Kirkby in Ashfield in May. It was withdrawn in September 1964 and scrapped in the following November but I know not where. (BRDatabase)



South Kenton again in April 1963. The passenger train staple on the WCML at this time was the Black 5 and although the number of this one is obscured by the reporting number it's making its way towards London on what could well be an outer suburban service.



This is South Kenton again in April 1963 looking towards London. Although the loco number is again obscured I read this as possibly 45526 Morecambe and Heysham which at the time was a Carlisle Upperby engine. Can this be confirmed as a Rebuilt Patriot? The other problem is that 45526 was at Carlisle Upperby at the time with a shed code of 12A and I can't make the shed code on the loco look like 12A whichever way I hold it up! Thoughts and comments will be appreciated.



Brian

 

[mickoo]

Definitely a rebuilt Patriot.

There are a few distinct areas where the rebuilds differ, the cab side sheet, buffer beam and middle cylinder cover are the easiest.

Royal Scots have an almost double depth buffer beam, the middle cylinder cover has two steps, is physically larger and reaches up to the same level as the running boards, thus the front top edge is beveled to fit within the front frame profile; the cab side is the original Fowler one and has only one window and a rear cut out.

Patriots have a normal thin buffer beam, no steps on the smaller middle cylinder cover (with corresponding smaller bevel) that reaches only 3/4 up to the running boards; the cab side is a Stanier cab with two side windows.

 

[oldravendale]

Once again, Mick, I'm indebted to you for confirming the loco in my last post as a Rebuilt Patriot, although I remain doubtful that it's actually 45526.

This is entitled South Kenton April 1963. That station in the left background is not, however, South Kenton. As we've seen previously, South Kenton is an island platform and the station in this shot is certainly not. (There's possibly an LMS EMU in the London-bound platform - it may be a 501 rather than one of the LMS sets but the focus at the edge of the frame is not great). This station could be North Wembley but I think that white building which can just be traced above the bridge is the modernist Wrigley's Building which would make this Wembley Central. Wembley Central was not rebuilt until the WCML electrification so would be in its original form in this photo.

As for the loco, it's certainly a Jubilee on a very substantial train using the express line in to Euston. Regrettably the number is indecipherable again.



Another unknown Black 5 attributed to South Kenton in April 1963. Two for the price of one here, as the remasked image has, for me, much more dynamism than the unmasked one. From my memory of the location I'm pretty confident that this is between North Wembley and Wembley Central looking in the London direction. That rail bridge crosses the WCML just before Wembley Central.



This at Willesden in May 1963. Britannia 70049 Solway Firth of 21D, Aston. It was actually transferred to Aston from Holyhead on 25th May 1963 so just about fits the timing of the photo (although the SLS says 1st June 1963). It moved around a bit afterwards, including a period at Willesden, ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor from where it was withdrawn in December 1967. It went to J McWilliams, Shettleston where it was scrapped on 15th March 1968. (BRDatabase)



Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

Brian.
I don't think the Jubilee photo is Wembley Central. The southern approach there is round quite a sharp curve almost up to the platforms, if I recall.
Dave.

 

[mickoo]

The EMU is an Ex LMS Oerlikon, the black smudge on the front of the yellow panel is the above buffer beam MU hoses grouped as three which the 501 didn't have, the 501 has several much higher level junction boxes spread out under the windscreens, in addition, there is no center head code display as fitted to the 501 class.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dave. Actually, looking at the photo again I agree it can't be Wembley Central - the DC lines join the main line only shortly before the station and there would be more space for the sidings of Willesden Goods Yard behind the local train that's being overtaken. I suppose it could be North Wembley but I'm still thrown by that large building the other side of the bridge. Could it be Kenton? Again I'm thrown by that large building which in profile does not look like the Travellers Rest. Neither do I remember that footpath, although at the time of my train spotting most was done in Northwick Park where the Met/GC crosses the WCML.

I'll keep working on it.

I believe that the Oerlikon stock had all been withdrawn by 1960, Mick. I reckon my first guess is probably correct - it's the LMS stock which came after the Oerlikon but before the 501. See posts #29, #43 and others in "An unusual collection" on WT and by me. Semantics I know but Yorkshire Dave went to some trouble to explain the differences.

Anyway, all grist to the mill again but I just wish I could confirm the location of that Jubilee photo. Thanks again for refining and correcting the info.....

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

I need some help!

As I've said previously I've used the RailUK site for loco scrapping info in an effort to give a complete picture of what happened to the locos in Tim's photo collection. Very recently the site is not allowing access. Is anyone else having this issue, or have I been singled out? (Not that I'm paranoid or anything).

If we have lost that site it's a great shame as it has been a reliable source of information at the highest level of investigating the history of locos which suits the style of showing photos with some but not too much detail. Does anyone have this book? BR Steam Locomotives Complete Allocations History 1948-1968 If so it'll be helpful for me to know if it gives disposal info for locos as they were withdrawn and scrapped - my understanding is that it gives shed allocations but that info is already on BRDatabase which can often provide info about where a loco went for scrapping but not always.

If it doesn't give that amount of detail does anyone know of a reliable source, whether on line or as a publication?

Brian

 

[mickoo]

Brian, I suspect your right as I wasn't aware there was a batch difference between the Oerlikons and subsequent LMS designs, neither did I see Dave's posts as I only tend to drop in and out of here on occasion, to that end I have tended to just group them all as one and named them as such. Either way, it's certainly not a 501

The first photo is North Wembly, ignore buildings and just go be geography and bridges, they rarely change much, it's a four track main with up and down electric lines with individual platforms, only one station fits that profile, even today the bridge layout remains near identical.

The Wrigleys factory was north east of North Wembley station, not Wembley Central.



Tim would have been stood at bottom left, North Wembley is in the middle, Wrigleys is top right, copyright Britian from the air (heavily cropped)



The next shot of the Black 5 is the same spot but looking toward London with Wembly Central behind the bridge, the bridge still exists today and the location is just south of Wembley North. The through truss bridge I believe is the Ex GCR main line.

Neither are anywhere near South Kenton (relatively speaking)

 

[oldravendale]

You've come up trumps again, Mick!

In my mind the Wrigley's factory flashes past on my left (as I go in to town) and then it's Wembley Central. Anyway, you've proven beyond doubt that the Wrigley's factory is at North Wembley and suddenly everything falls in to place. That really helps to sort the location of some of the earlier photos - and some of those yet to come. (Tim was a Hornsey boy, LNER and all that, so his knowledge of the geography of NW London is understandably suspect.)

Just a little thing - that railway bridge is not the GCR main line which crossed the WCML at Northwick Park - there are some photos to come which will show the relationship. I only ever saw one train on that bridge and I believe, in the 1960s, it was one of the routes used for transfer freights between regions, so possibly here between the LNER and Willesden/Hither Green but others will have far greater knowledge.

As all my early life (after we moved from the East End which I don't remember) was in Kenton and I've used the route from Tring in to Euston any number of times I should know the route really well. Is it any wonder that criminal witnesses can get their "memories" so confused?

As for the LNWR/LMS units, you'd need to be a Yorkshire Dave to work that one out.

Brian