oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks Dave. Yes, I realised that when I came to update the records attached to the photos and yours crossed with me correcting my post. Apologies and thanks for your update.
Brian
Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
Brian
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Original air smoothed Battle of Britain 34083 605 Squadron on a down Ramsgate train at Paddock Wood Station on 10th June 1961. It was allocated to Ashford in May 1961 and then Exmouth Junction in November the same year where it was withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It was observed in store at Exmouth by the Railway Observer in early and late September 1964, then at Hayes/Bird's Bridgend where it was reported by the LCGB in February 1965 and by the Railway Observer in June 1965. According to WHTS it was last seen intact at Bird's on 27th September 1965.
It's a Folkestone or Dover train as the headcode is London Bridge (or Charing Cross, Cannon Street or Holborn) Bricklayers' Arms and Folkestone or Dover via Chislehurst, Tonbridge and Ashford. For the headcodes on this ex SER route London Bridge is stated at the starting point although the train more than likely began it's journey at Charing Cross or Cannon Street as these were the ex-SER termini and they all have to pass through London Bridge. In general Kent coast services via Tonbridge and Paddock Wood started at Charing Cross or Cannon Street. The terminal side of London Bridge was ex-LBSCR.
It is unlikely Kent coast trains started at Holborn as this was an LCDR terminus primarly handling surburban traffic, as was Blackfriars and most services went via Elephant and Castle rather than London Bridge. The eastern side of Victoria was the other ex-LCDR terminus (western side was ex-LBSCR) and this is where their Kent coast trains started and generally traversed the old LCDR route via Rochester and Faversham.
Last seen very recently in post #3131 is Class C 31588 backing stock in to Paddock Wood Station on 10th June 1961, the final day of services on the Paddock Wood to Hawkhurst line. To repeat the earlier comments: 31588 was allocated to Gillingham in at least 1947 and moved from there to Ashford in November 1961 where it was withdrawn on 23rd June 1962. (SLS). The SLS also records it as being allocated to Stewarts Lane two days later but this seems most unlikely. According to WHTS it was observed in Ashford Works on 1st July and BR Database report a scrapping date of July 1962 which all fits quite nicely.
This photo confirms the 2-HAP elcectric stock - the lavatory compartment is the give-away.
Another of the same loco on a Hawkhurst train at Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961, new electric stock much in evidence. That signal box just cries out to be modelled.
The BR outline electric stock seen here is the then new 2-HAP stock alluded to in earlier posts. The stock in front of the 2-HAP is an earlier BR 1951-59 built 2-EPB or 4-EPB based on the familiar Bulleid 4-SUB design as it's coupled to the 2-HAP.
The 1940s SR built Bulleid 4-SUBs could not couple to the BR (both BR and Bulleid designed) built 2-EPB and 4-EPB due to different braking systems (EPB = Electro-Pneumatic Brake).
An unidentified N Class 2-6-0 on a local train at Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961 using set 549. It seems to have the number chalked just above the buffer beam but it's still difficult to read. The C Class can be seen in the platform on the extreme left and what appears to be Bulleid stock to the right, but doubtless (and with luck) that description will be put right.
This is more likely to be a local service to Ramsgate as it's traversing part of the Victoria or West London line and Ramsgate via Herne Hill or Catford Loop route - which the headcode indicates.
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David Waite
Western Thunderer
I wonder how much smoke entered that signal box at Paddock Wood there would be plenty of
gaps through the lever frame, rodding and cable holes that the smoke could enter through .
David.
gaps through the lever frame, rodding and cable holes that the smoke could enter through .
David.
Includes German Railways 1974
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks for your thoughts on the N Roger. Incorporated "just in case".
Yorkshire Dave - once again many thanks for filling so many gaps. All now incorporated in the full descriptions.
David - I'd not even thought about the smoke issue with that box. I wonder what the atmosphere was like inside the Clapham Junction box... Thanks for the comment.
One of the BR built and then rebuilt West Country class locos 34100 Appledore on the down Golden Arrow south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. It had been a Stewarts Lane engine since February 1958 moving to Brighton in November 1962 where it was withdrawn on the cusp of the end of Southern steam in early July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport in October the same year. (BR Database).
Seen recently on the same trip and recorded in post #3116 is H Class 31305 seen here on a Maidstone East to Tonbridge train comprising a pull-push set of modified Maunsell coaches south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. By October 1955 it was allocated to Bricklayers Arms, so a long way from home here. It went to Stewarts Lane in June 1962 where it was withdrawn in the following November. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge in July 1964. (BR Database).
Class Q1 33031 on a Tonbridge to Maidstone East train south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. This was a Tonbridge engine and had been since April 1948. It moved to Nine Elms in May 1962 and then Three Bridges in November where it was withdrawn in September 1963. (SLS). The Railway Observer reports it at Eastleigh Works where it was cut up week ending 9th November 1963.
Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974 and now, according to the board which can be seen through this building, at Lathen. This looks like a huge mashalling yard which is, I believe, between Meppen and Rheine.
Same location and date with possibly the train featured in the next two photos approaching.
At Lathen and oil burning pacific 012 075-8 passes on a passenger train in March 1974.
Brian
Yorkshire Dave - once again many thanks for filling so many gaps. All now incorporated in the full descriptions.
David - I'd not even thought about the smoke issue with that box. I wonder what the atmosphere was like inside the Clapham Junction box... Thanks for the comment.
One of the BR built and then rebuilt West Country class locos 34100 Appledore on the down Golden Arrow south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. It had been a Stewarts Lane engine since February 1958 moving to Brighton in November 1962 where it was withdrawn on the cusp of the end of Southern steam in early July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport in October the same year. (BR Database).
Seen recently on the same trip and recorded in post #3116 is H Class 31305 seen here on a Maidstone East to Tonbridge train comprising a pull-push set of modified Maunsell coaches south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. By October 1955 it was allocated to Bricklayers Arms, so a long way from home here. It went to Stewarts Lane in June 1962 where it was withdrawn in the following November. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge in July 1964. (BR Database).
Class Q1 33031 on a Tonbridge to Maidstone East train south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. This was a Tonbridge engine and had been since April 1948. It moved to Nine Elms in May 1962 and then Three Bridges in November where it was withdrawn in September 1963. (SLS). The Railway Observer reports it at Eastleigh Works where it was cut up week ending 9th November 1963.
Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974 and now, according to the board which can be seen through this building, at Lathen. This looks like a huge mashalling yard which is, I believe, between Meppen and Rheine.
Same location and date with possibly the train featured in the next two photos approaching.
At Lathen and oil burning pacific 012 075-8 passes on a passenger train in March 1974.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
C Class 31256 on the 12.30 Paddock Wood to Hawkhurst train using a converted Maunsell push-pull set South of Paddock Wood on the last day of the branch, 10th June 1961. It had been allocated to Ashford since June 1959 and was withdrawn in July 1961. (SLS). I can find nothing about disposal although this is likely to have been at Ashford Works. BR Database advises a scrapping date of August 1961.
Rebuilt Battle of Britain 34077 603 Squadron on an up boat train south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. The SLS records the loco as moving to Nine Elms in late May 1961 and previously being at Stewarts Lane since January 1958. I suspect SR management may have jumped the gun in the knowledge that the Kent Coast electrification was almost complete and that the physical move of the loco to Nine Elms didn't occur until there was no use for it on the Kent Coast trains. Somewhat surprisingly it was then allocated to Feltham in September 1964 (although it was, of course, a mixed traffic engine
) but was only there for two months before going to Eastleigh in November 1964 where it was withdrawn in March 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport, in August 1967. (BR Database).
Air smoothed Battle of Britain 34067 Tangmere on an up boat train south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. This was another pacific which was book transferred from Stewarts Lane, where it had been regularly in store and reinstated since 1949 to Salisbury in May 1961. It was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). In April 1965 the loco moved to Woodham's, Barry, and came out of the scrapyard in January 1981. For further details since leaving the scrapyard see 34067 Tangmere (SR 21C167, BR s21C167 & BR 34067)
Sorry - I've run out of time for any more of the German photos today. I'll hope for a bit longer on the thread tomorrow.
Brian
Rebuilt Battle of Britain 34077 603 Squadron on an up boat train south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. The SLS records the loco as moving to Nine Elms in late May 1961 and previously being at Stewarts Lane since January 1958. I suspect SR management may have jumped the gun in the knowledge that the Kent Coast electrification was almost complete and that the physical move of the loco to Nine Elms didn't occur until there was no use for it on the Kent Coast trains. Somewhat surprisingly it was then allocated to Feltham in September 1964 (although it was, of course, a mixed traffic engine
) but was only there for two months before going to Eastleigh in November 1964 where it was withdrawn in March 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport, in August 1967. (BR Database).Air smoothed Battle of Britain 34067 Tangmere on an up boat train south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. This was another pacific which was book transferred from Stewarts Lane, where it had been regularly in store and reinstated since 1949 to Salisbury in May 1961. It was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). In April 1965 the loco moved to Woodham's, Barry, and came out of the scrapyard in January 1981. For further details since leaving the scrapyard see 34067 Tangmere (SR 21C167, BR s21C167 & BR 34067)
Sorry - I've run out of time for any more of the German photos today. I'll hope for a bit longer on the thread tomorrow.
Brian
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Lyndhurstman
Western Thunderer
It's probably the long grass, but that last image looks like it's standing there, cold and forgotten.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Rebuilt Battle of Britain 34077 603 Squadron on an up boat train south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. The SLS records the loco as moving to Nine Elms in late May 1961 and previously being at Stewarts Lane since January 1958. I suspect SR management may have jumped the gun in the knowledge that the Kent Coast electrification was almost complete and that the physical move of the loco to Nine Elms didn't occur until there was no use for it on the Kent Coast trains. Somewhat surprisingly it was then allocated to Feltham in September 1964 (although it was, of course, a mixed traffic engine
This could be going to either Folkestone or Dover - Headcode is Victoria (or Holborn - unlikely) and Folkestone or Dover via Orpington Loop, Tonbridge and Ashford.
Air smoothed Battle of Britain 34067 Tangmere on an up boat train south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. This was another pacific which was book transferred from Stewarts Lane, where it had been regularly in store and reinstated since 1949 to Salisbury in May 1961. It was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). In April 1965 the loco moved to Woodham's, Barry, and came out of the scrapyard in January 1981. For further details since leaving the scrapyard see 34067 Tangmere (SR 21C167, BR s21C167 & BR 34067)
Again, could be going to either Folkestone or Dover.
The first coach in the train behind the utility van is a 'nonedescript' brake built for boat train traffic. It was built to a SECR design and classified 'nonedescript' as the accommodation could be designated as either first or second class depending on the loading requirements (third class was abolished in 1956 and reclassified as second class). The second coach is a Maunsell restriction 0 (Hastings gauge) full first or composite as it has 7 compartments.
Includes German Railways 1974
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Maybe it's just part of a diorama.
Dave - again, thank you for expanding the detail to go with the photos. This will be attached to the images in the normal way...
Rebuilt West Country 34101 Hartland on a down boat train south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. In May 1961 it was a Bricklayers Arms loco having been recently rebuilt at Eastleigh (in 1960). It moved to Brighton in June 1962, Nine Elms in June 1963 and finally Eastleigh in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in July 1966. It went to Woodham's, Barry in October 1966 and was rescued in July 1978 for preservation - see 34101 Hartland for details.
Class N 31406 on a Dover to Tonbridge local train south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. It was a Tonbridge engine in February 1961, moving to Weymouth Radipole in May (which may have been a book transfer brought about by the electrification of the Kent Coast line with physical transfer occurring somewhat later. This would account for this sighting at Paddock Wood) and finally Exmouth Junction in March 1962 where it was withdrawn in September 1964. It was in store at Exmouth in August and September (Railway Observer). The RO also noted it in a siding close to Bristol Barrow Road while in transit to Bird's, Morriston in late December 1964. BR Database report a scrapping date of December 1964 and with the earlier observation at Bristol I think we can assume that it was shortly after.
Q1 33031 on a Maidstone East to Tonbridge train south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. I think we can safely assume that this is the returning train shown in post #3144. To repeat the earlier comments: This was a Tonbridge engine and had been since April 1948. It moved to Nine Elms in May 1962 and then Three Bridges in November where it was withdrawn in September 1963. (SLS). The Railway Observer reports it at Eastleigh Works where it was cut up week ending 9th November 1963.
Some rather less than exciting shots on the Rheine - Emden trip of May 1974 featuring 2-10-0s. The weather looks to have been appalling but Tim was only occasionally blessed with good weather on his trips - reference the previous sequence in Scotland. I suspect these are shots from his hotel and probably somewhere near Emden.
Brian
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
The posting today of a pic of Hartland on the same day as the partially identified rebuilt WC in IMG#2647 rather confirms in my mind that it is 34025. There seem to have been a number of book transfers off the SE division in late May 61 which was obviously in connection with the rundown of steam traction prior to the electrification timetable starting.
Two matters arising form this, there were potentially 11 light pacifics with a BR number ending in 5. Six of them were never rebuilt and on the 10th June 1961 all the rebuilt ones were officially allocated to SW division sheds, 85 501 Sqdn had a nameplate with a crest and was a Bournemouth engine, as was 45 Ottery St Mary which had been there since 1950. 05 Barnstaple had gone to Salisbury in Feb 61 and 95 Brentor had been at Nine Elms since Jan 56. This only leaves 25 which as we know had been a B Arms engine until 2 weeks previously. I think on balance of probability it is 34025 in the earlier pic.
There were on the 10/6/61 seven light pacifics still allocated to SE division sheds, 12,13,14,50,101 at B Arms and 89/100 at Stew Lane, note nothing at Ramsgate or Dover by now. 34100 Appledore was obviously reasonably well kept for the Arrow, however six other pacifics for the whole of the divisions express services is something of a shortfall so I think it wholly plausible that some former incumbents were kept despite being transferred away.
Interesting diversion.
Martin
Two matters arising form this, there were potentially 11 light pacifics with a BR number ending in 5. Six of them were never rebuilt and on the 10th June 1961 all the rebuilt ones were officially allocated to SW division sheds, 85 501 Sqdn had a nameplate with a crest and was a Bournemouth engine, as was 45 Ottery St Mary which had been there since 1950. 05 Barnstaple had gone to Salisbury in Feb 61 and 95 Brentor had been at Nine Elms since Jan 56. This only leaves 25 which as we know had been a B Arms engine until 2 weeks previously. I think on balance of probability it is 34025 in the earlier pic.
There were on the 10/6/61 seven light pacifics still allocated to SE division sheds, 12,13,14,50,101 at B Arms and 89/100 at Stew Lane, note nothing at Ramsgate or Dover by now. 34100 Appledore was obviously reasonably well kept for the Arrow, however six other pacifics for the whole of the divisions express services is something of a shortfall so I think it wholly plausible that some former incumbents were kept despite being transferred away.
Interesting diversion.
Martin
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Of the headcodes seen on the Victoria or Charing Cross to Folkestone and Dover train I've created a map of the routes to Sevenoaks using the Open Railway Map as a source. From Sevenoaks to Tonbridge, Folkestone or Dover the trains follow the same route.
The services from Victoria follow the ex-LDCR route to Chislehurst, one then takes the ex-LCDR route to Sevenoaks via Swanley and the other the ex-SER route to Sevenoaks via Orpington.
The service from Charing Cross follows the ex-SER route.
In respect of the Folkestone and Dover boat trains the Southern and BR(S) were fortunate to have several diversionary routes to bypass engineering works and incidents. One advantage of the routes duplicated by the LCDR and SER rivalry and subsequently retained.
The services from Victoria follow the ex-LDCR route to Chislehurst, one then takes the ex-LCDR route to Sevenoaks via Swanley and the other the ex-SER route to Sevenoaks via Orpington.
The service from Charing Cross follows the ex-SER route.
In respect of the Folkestone and Dover boat trains the Southern and BR(S) were fortunate to have several diversionary routes to bypass engineering works and incidents. One advantage of the routes duplicated by the LCDR and SER rivalry and subsequently retained.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you Martin. Your rationale works for me so I've adjusted the write up for that photo accordingly.
Thanks to you too, David. That map explains all.
Schools 30935 Sevenoaks on a Ramsgate to Wolverhampton train south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. This was allocated to St Leonards in September 1949 and was next reported in store at Bricklayers Arms in January 1953, reinstated in March, back in to store in February 1954 and reinstated again in May. It moved to Nine Elms in November 1961 and was withdrawn in December 1962. It was scrapped at Cohen's, Kettering, in May 1964.
H Class 31305 on a Tonbridge to Maidstone East train south of Paddock Wood on 19th June 1961. Pull-Push set 616 can be clearly identified. This loco has been in several recent posts. By October 1955 it was allocated to Bricklayers Arms, so a long way from home here. It went to Stewarts Lane in June 1962 where it was withdrawn in the following November. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge in July 1964. (BR Database).
A view from the train hauled by Schools 30924 Haileybury on the 9.10am am train from Dover at Polhill Tunnel on 10th June 1961.
Edit: Now known to be Sevenoaks Tunnel, not Polhill.
30924 again on the 9.10am Dover train having arrived at Tonbridge on 10th June 1961. This loco had been at Bricklayers Arms since June 1952 and recorded in store in October 1953, reinstated December 1953 and back in to store at the end of the same month, so clearly reinstated for the Christmas traffic. It was reinstated in February 1954 but back in to store in October and reinstated again possibly for the Christmas timetable in early December and back in to store in February 1955, reinstated in June, stored again in October 1955 and then not reinstated until June 1956. (SLS). Seeing all these seasonal reinstatements makes one realise the commitment to capital resources for seasonal traffic which would give the accountants of today apoplexy! Eventually, in August 1961 it was allocated to Redhill where it was withdrawn in early January 1962. (SLS). It went to Ashford Works where it was cut up week ending 20th January 1962. (Railway Observer).
Apologies - I've run out of time for more German photos but will try again later...
Brian
Thanks to you too, David. That map explains all.
Schools 30935 Sevenoaks on a Ramsgate to Wolverhampton train south of Paddock Wood on 10th June 1961. This was allocated to St Leonards in September 1949 and was next reported in store at Bricklayers Arms in January 1953, reinstated in March, back in to store in February 1954 and reinstated again in May. It moved to Nine Elms in November 1961 and was withdrawn in December 1962. It was scrapped at Cohen's, Kettering, in May 1964.
H Class 31305 on a Tonbridge to Maidstone East train south of Paddock Wood on 19th June 1961. Pull-Push set 616 can be clearly identified. This loco has been in several recent posts. By October 1955 it was allocated to Bricklayers Arms, so a long way from home here. It went to Stewarts Lane in June 1962 where it was withdrawn in the following November. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge in July 1964. (BR Database).
A view from the train hauled by Schools 30924 Haileybury on the 9.10am am train from Dover at Polhill Tunnel on 10th June 1961.
Edit: Now known to be Sevenoaks Tunnel, not Polhill.
30924 again on the 9.10am Dover train having arrived at Tonbridge on 10th June 1961. This loco had been at Bricklayers Arms since June 1952 and recorded in store in October 1953, reinstated December 1953 and back in to store at the end of the same month, so clearly reinstated for the Christmas traffic. It was reinstated in February 1954 but back in to store in October and reinstated again possibly for the Christmas timetable in early December and back in to store in February 1955, reinstated in June, stored again in October 1955 and then not reinstated until June 1956. (SLS). Seeing all these seasonal reinstatements makes one realise the commitment to capital resources for seasonal traffic which would give the accountants of today apoplexy! Eventually, in August 1961 it was allocated to Redhill where it was withdrawn in early January 1962. (SLS). It went to Ashford Works where it was cut up week ending 20th January 1962. (Railway Observer).
Apologies - I've run out of time for more German photos but will try again later...
Brian
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Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
30935 B Arms 6/35, St leonards 26/9/49, B Arms 17/6/50, Ashford 14/6/59, Nine Elms 9/11/61, Wdn 29/12/62, Stored Nine Elms 12/62 - 3/64, Cut up Cohen's Kettering 4/64.
I don't think it's Polhill tunnel (no e in Polhill) as the trailing connection and the rear of the elevated shunt signal aren't right. It is almost certainly the north end of Sevenoaks tunnel. I agree with Adam, a superb picture.
Martin
I don't think it's Polhill tunnel (no e in Polhill) as the trailing connection and the rear of the elevated shunt signal aren't right. It is almost certainly the north end of Sevenoaks tunnel. I agree with Adam, a superb picture.
Martin
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Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
I'm not too sure. The line is dead straight into the south end of Sevenoaks tunnel and wouldn't allow this type of photo which appears to be taken on a left leaning curve. The only tunnel which leans into a left hand curve from the south looking at the OS maps on the ex-SER route is Polhill tunnel. If on the ex-LCDR line via Bat and Ball then it could be Eynsford Tunnel which has a left leaning curve prior to straightening up before the south entrance, however the straight section is relatively long and would not allow a photo like this..
The other tunnel going north on the ex-SER route is Chelsfield Tunnel just north of Knockholt and the OS map does show sidings however the curve into this leans to the right.
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
What I thought was the rear of a signal turns out when magnified to be a man behind something. There are really only three possibilities, we can discount Eynsford as personally I have never seen a pic of a Schools between Swanley and Sevenoaks, it probably did happen but rarely though.
I think the picture has two things wrong in the caption, it is not Polhill tunnel and it is a down train. If it is to be believed the picture following of 30924 at Tonbridge is most definitely a down train and if the same train, is previously entering a tunnel from the north end. Neither Polhill nor Chelsfield tunnels fit the location with the trailing connection.
Martin
I think the picture has two things wrong in the caption, it is not Polhill tunnel and it is a down train. If it is to be believed the picture following of 30924 at Tonbridge is most definitely a down train and if the same train, is previously entering a tunnel from the north end. Neither Polhill nor Chelsfield tunnels fit the location with the trailing connection.
Martin
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
I have my directions mixed up - I always thought the bridge at Tonbridge was at the London end now I realise it's at the Paddock Wood end.
Therefore as you correctly note it's a 09.10 CX (or Vic) departure to the Kent coast and would concur this is the north end of Sevenoaks tunnel. I also see the siding/loop is electrified to form the down carriage sidings.
The ex-SER line to Sevenoaks Tubs Hill and the ex-LCDR lines via Swanley and Sevenoaks Bat & Ball were electrified in 1935 where it terminated until the Kent Coast electrification scheme. The trailing crossover could have been removed shortly after the extension of the electrification or even later during the 1975/76 Sevenoaks Tubs Hill station rebuilding.
Therefore as you correctly note it's a 09.10 CX (or Vic) departure to the Kent coast and would concur this is the north end of Sevenoaks tunnel. I also see the siding/loop is electrified to form the down carriage sidings.
The ex-SER line to Sevenoaks Tubs Hill and the ex-LCDR lines via Swanley and Sevenoaks Bat & Ball were electrified in 1935 where it terminated until the Kent Coast electrification scheme. The trailing crossover could have been removed shortly after the extension of the electrification or even later during the 1975/76 Sevenoaks Tubs Hill station rebuilding.
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
Dave
Just for interest I have attached a section of the Sevenoaks "B" box diagram which shows the trailing crossover into the down main as C&P. The amendment note on the diagram edge is dated 1/4/59 and refers to the C&P work which was obviously done in preparation for the electrification southwards.
Martin
Just for interest I have attached a section of the Sevenoaks "B" box diagram which shows the trailing crossover into the down main as C&P. The amendment note on the diagram edge is dated 1/4/59 and refers to the C&P work which was obviously done in preparation for the electrification southwards.
Martin
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
A day of photo housekeeping today so no new pictures. However...
Thank you Adam. Tim could be quite creative as we've seen previously. Whether by accident or design I'm unsure, but he was never entirely satisfied with his work.
Martin - thanks for yours about 30935 and then to you and Yorkshire Dave for the discussion about that "from the train" photo. I think we (royal we, you understand ) got there in the end. I'm particularly appreciative that you continue to question Tim's descriptions in terms of locations and dates. His notes are not necessarily contemporaneous so the errors are understandable.
Have you noticed as well that the photos which seem to generate the most discussion are those which, at first sight, seem to have little to recommend them? That photo at Sevenoaks Tunnel (post now edited appropriately) is probably quite important from an historical perspective as it captures a specific location at a time of upheaval and change in a particular location, possibly never photographed from that perspective other than by Tim. The full details and diagram are captured in a file specific to the photo.
Brian
Thank you Adam. Tim could be quite creative as we've seen previously. Whether by accident or design I'm unsure, but he was never entirely satisfied with his work.
Martin - thanks for yours about 30935 and then to you and Yorkshire Dave for the discussion about that "from the train" photo. I think we (royal we, you understand
) got there in the end. I'm particularly appreciative that you continue to question Tim's descriptions in terms of locations and dates. His notes are not necessarily contemporaneous so the errors are understandable.Have you noticed as well that the photos which seem to generate the most discussion are those which, at first sight, seem to have little to recommend them? That photo at Sevenoaks Tunnel (post now edited appropriately) is probably quite important from an historical perspective as it captures a specific location at a time of upheaval and change in a particular location, possibly never photographed from that perspective other than by Tim. The full details and diagram are captured in a file specific to the photo.
Brian
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mickoo
Western Thunderer
Regarding Tim's DB jaunt, we've sleuthed pretty much all the locations accept the crossing (seen again recently) but I think I've got that now; again there's more for the location and as yet nothing against. I'll repost Tim's photos here to save folks trawling back and forth.
Several observation points, road dips down then climbs to crossing and does a hard left after the crossing, in the more recent shots there's a small stream, ditch, dyke to the left of the crossing and the crossing keepers house is in a triangle of waste rough ground.
I'm confident it's Duther Street in the small village of Melstrup.
The road has the same features, there's a small stream (overgrown) to the left and the road kicks hard left after the crossing, there are some houses in the top left which also fit those seen in the background of the photo with the stream bridge. Also where the crossing keepers house was, the field has a triangle of waste ground that matches Tims photos; just off to the right is another road crossing and tree lined road running parallel to this one, those tress can be seen in some of Tims shots too.
I don't know what the property was before, it may have just been a residence, it looks a modern property on the corner but European houses age well and my gut feeling is it's the same structure. What it was previously I don't know. but the large space out front could have been a car park.
Here's the clincher for me, Tim took a photo inside.
Note end wall of a building to the right, a pitched roof that runs parallel with the railway line and some sort of fence, possibly balcony wall in the foreground. By inching along in street view you can just get a glimpse of the rear of said property.
Note end gable opening/window/door with balcony and to the right (left in this photo) the additional building with a pitched roof running parallel to the railway line. The pitch of the roof, it's proximity and orientation are what I'd expect to see standing at that window.
Dave might be able to sleuth better what the property was before with his cartography expertise, it may have been a hostel/hotel or maybe even a business/shop and Tim has blagged his way inside for these photos. We'll probably never know, but I'm confident the crossing is Duther Street in Melstrup.
Melstrup is just north of Lathen by a few Km and about half way between Rheine and Emden; so the area is a logical stopping off point for an overnight stay.
Several observation points, road dips down then climbs to crossing and does a hard left after the crossing, in the more recent shots there's a small stream, ditch, dyke to the left of the crossing and the crossing keepers house is in a triangle of waste rough ground.
I'm confident it's Duther Street in the small village of Melstrup.
The road has the same features, there's a small stream (overgrown) to the left and the road kicks hard left after the crossing, there are some houses in the top left which also fit those seen in the background of the photo with the stream bridge. Also where the crossing keepers house was, the field has a triangle of waste ground that matches Tims photos; just off to the right is another road crossing and tree lined road running parallel to this one, those tress can be seen in some of Tims shots too.
I don't know what the property was before, it may have just been a residence, it looks a modern property on the corner but European houses age well and my gut feeling is it's the same structure. What it was previously I don't know. but the large space out front could have been a car park.
Here's the clincher for me, Tim took a photo inside.
Note end wall of a building to the right, a pitched roof that runs parallel with the railway line and some sort of fence, possibly balcony wall in the foreground. By inching along in street view you can just get a glimpse of the rear of said property.
Note end gable opening/window/door with balcony and to the right (left in this photo) the additional building with a pitched roof running parallel to the railway line. The pitch of the roof, it's proximity and orientation are what I'd expect to see standing at that window.
Dave might be able to sleuth better what the property was before with his cartography expertise, it may have been a hostel/hotel or maybe even a business/shop and Tim has blagged his way inside for these photos. We'll probably never know, but I'm confident the crossing is Duther Street in Melstrup.
Melstrup is just north of Lathen by a few Km and about half way between Rheine and Emden; so the area is a logical stopping off point for an overnight stay.
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Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
I have been having a trawl of the web and most illuminating it was, I also had a look for some railway stuff which I can add to the repository.
On the last day of Hawkhust services the morning trains were formed of Maunsell P&P set 609. This was strengthened to 5 coaches on the 2.15pm ex P Wood and remaining trains that day.
In May 1949 BRCW delivered fifteen 4 car sets type N for use on the London/Dover/Ramsgate/Margate services. They were formed into sets 80 - 94 each comprising two semi open third brakes flanking an all third and a composite and were used on all the principal express services on the SE Division until the first stage of the Kent Coast electrification in June 1959. Sets 89 and 90 were transferred to Oxted services and sets 80 and 86 were strengthened to seven vehicles. The remaining eleven 4 car sets remained on the SED until 1962 when they were transferred to the Central Div for Reading - Redhill, Guildford - Brighton, and TWWest - Eastbourne services. Sets 80 and 86 are pertinent as one of them along with a 4 car set formed the stock of 9.10am Charing Cross to Dover and Ramsgate. The seven car set leading went to Ramsgate, the 4 cars were detached at Dover and subsequently formed a service to Tonbridge. Therefore there is only a choice of 4 vehicles, all semi open brake seconds that Tim was travelling in when he took the photo, 4011/4012/4023/4024.
The use of a Schools for an eleven coach train is unusual as it is somewhere near the maximum load for the class on the SE main line, I'll see if I can find load tables, but seventeen miles at steepish gradients for a class 5, hard work by any measure. 30924 Haileybury was at the time a B Arms engine so logical enough but I have seen a pic of 34027 Taw Valley at St Johns on the same train in 1959, it too a B Arms engine then which seems a rather more attractive proposition for the fireman.
Martin
On the last day of Hawkhust services the morning trains were formed of Maunsell P&P set 609. This was strengthened to 5 coaches on the 2.15pm ex P Wood and remaining trains that day.
In May 1949 BRCW delivered fifteen 4 car sets type N for use on the London/Dover/Ramsgate/Margate services. They were formed into sets 80 - 94 each comprising two semi open third brakes flanking an all third and a composite and were used on all the principal express services on the SE Division until the first stage of the Kent Coast electrification in June 1959. Sets 89 and 90 were transferred to Oxted services and sets 80 and 86 were strengthened to seven vehicles. The remaining eleven 4 car sets remained on the SED until 1962 when they were transferred to the Central Div for Reading - Redhill, Guildford - Brighton, and TWWest - Eastbourne services. Sets 80 and 86 are pertinent as one of them along with a 4 car set formed the stock of 9.10am Charing Cross to Dover and Ramsgate. The seven car set leading went to Ramsgate, the 4 cars were detached at Dover and subsequently formed a service to Tonbridge. Therefore there is only a choice of 4 vehicles, all semi open brake seconds that Tim was travelling in when he took the photo, 4011/4012/4023/4024.
The use of a Schools for an eleven coach train is unusual as it is somewhere near the maximum load for the class on the SE main line, I'll see if I can find load tables, but seventeen miles at steepish gradients for a class 5, hard work by any measure. 30924 Haileybury was at the time a B Arms engine so logical enough but I have seen a pic of 34027 Taw Valley at St Johns on the same train in 1959, it too a B Arms engine then which seems a rather more attractive proposition for the fireman.
Martin