Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[mickoo]

Brian,

The first picture is in the same location as the other two, just further down the line, compare the hills, fields and vegetation between the first and third photo. I suspect the first photo is taken very close to the head shunt buffers in the third photo which is pretty much where the second shot is taken but looking the other way.

 

[LarryG]

First two pictures; Thompson bogie passenger brake van and a BR 4-wheel GUV plus a narrow-bodied Maunsell set.

More narrow bodies Maunsell coaches in third a fourth pictures

Fourth picture; LMS Stanier 50' passenger full brake leading with ribbed roof (pre-war built).

 

[Jeremy Good]

Possibly just west of Betchworth station (just visible in the background). I think it was one of the few to have sidings and a headshunt due to vicinity of the quarries. The hills look like the slopes leading up to Box Hill but the profile is a bit different now as they’ve filled some of the quarries with, I believe, Channel Tunnel spoil.

I might get a chance to walk the dogs in that direction over the weekend and will see if I can identify the location more accurately.

Jeremy

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Mick. I agree, and there are four more today at the same location, but we still don't know actually where it is although Jeremy (thank you) makes a good proposal. If, having walked the dogs Jeremy you feel even more confident about the location I'll be interested. The station, box and goods shed are rather more easily seen in the first image to follow so may help.

Thank you, Larry, for the details about the coaching stock. All added to the photo information.

We're still with "Redhill-Reading Line Taken in the vicinity of Dorking Town Station June 1963." Here's U Class 2-6-0 31628, another long term resident of Guildford shed since 1950 and which was withdrawn from there in the middle of June 1964. It went to Cashmore's Newport where it was scrapped during the following December (BR Database and SLS).



This is N Class 2-6-0 No 31861 in the same location and still described as "Redhill-Reading Line Taken in the vicinity of Dorking Town Station June 1963." 31861 had been at Redhill since June 1959 and was withdrawn at the beginning of May 1963 which suggests that the date we have from Tim may need adjusting by a month or so. I don't know where it went for disposal although this was apparently complete by the end of June 1963 (BR Database and SLS).



I suspect these are both the same train and still "Redhill-Reading Line Taken in the vicinity of Dorking Town Station June 1963." The loco is N Class No 31871 carrying a 75B, Redhill shed plate. It had been at Redhill since June 1959 and was withdrawn in November 1963. It was scrapped by the end of January 1964 although it's another for which we have no details of the scrapyard involved (BR Database and SLS).



Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

In the first photo, the signal box nameplate appears to have two words - a longer one followed by a shorter. I can't read the wording but it looks to me to fit with "Dorking Town" better than with "Betchworth" .
Another clue might be the sign in the field opposite the foot crossing?
Dave.

 

[Ressaldar]

Possibly just west of Betchworth station (just visible in the background). I think it was one of the few to have sidings and a headshunt due to vicinity of the quarries. The hills look like the slopes leading up to Box Hill but the profile is a bit different now as they’ve filled some of the quarries with, I believe, Channel Tunnel spoil.

Jeremy

during the construction of the M3 motorway (Lightwater to Sunbury section 1970 - 73)) by Bovis Civil Engineering, over one million tons of chalk was extracted from the Betchworth quarry and transported by road to site as backfill to form berms across the worked out gravel pits between Sunbury and the Thames crossing near Chertsey, which were then backfilled and the carriageways built on top. So the Channel Tunnel spoil was backfilling for the hole that the M3 extraction formed.

We did however receive daily limestone trains from Foster Yeoman into out private siding at Longcross. No photos I'm afraid.

regards

Mike

 

[mickoo]

Brian,

Oh I see, sorry, I thought y'all knew that, it's Dorking West.

An aerial view looking westward, those three groups of trees on the distant hill side still exist today.



The allotments are still there in the bottom right, seen behind shots of engines leaving the station.

Infrastructure changes, geography takes a little longer.

 

[Martin Shaw]

I have had a trawl through signalling documentation, Betchworth had a level crossing adjacent to the signal box and was at the opposite end of the station from the sidings. This is definitely Dorking Town, so called by the SR in 1923 to differentiate it from the former LBSC station which they called Dorking North. Dorking Town signalbox closed in 1966 and the station was renamed again in 1987 to Dorking West.

Re 31861/71, the info I have (Irwell Press) is that both were scrapped at Eastleigh works, 1861 w/e 29/6/63 and 1871 w/e 1/2/64.
Regards
Martin

 

[Jeremy Good]

Looking again at the photos and various other references I have come to the conclusion that it is most likely Dorking Town. The turnout in the foreground that looks like a double slip appears in several other photos of the station. In early days it was two overlaid turnouts, possibly known as a Barry Slip.

The groups of trees on the hillside at Ranmore Common (just west of Dorking) shown in the modern view are also fairly conclusive. Having looked this morning while dog walking, the hillside by Betchworth is a different shape and more heavily wooded - Ranmore is more open.

Sorry to lead you up a garden path on this one but Dorking Town looks the more likely location.

Jeremy

 

[michael mott]

What are all the dark parts that look a bit like soil erosion?
Michael

 

[Osgood]

What are all the dark parts that look a bit like soil erosion?
Michael

Looks like early morning shadows cast by trees.
If you try Google Maps satellite view you’ll get a direct overhead, you can tie up the two by reference to the quarrying activity seen mid distance at around 10.30 and allotments near right in view above.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for all the information regarding location. I can't find Dorking Town on current maps, Mick, but it looks as though it was the name when the photo was taken, even though it's now renamed Dorking West. The next photo at an unidentified station may nail it for certain.

That info re 31861 and 31871 completes the data to go with those photos, so many thanks for that, Martin.

A continuing theme - "Redhill-Reading Line Taken in the vicinity of Dorking Town Station June 1963." which we now know to be accurate as far as the location is concerned. Here's U Class 2-6-0 No 31635 of Guildford, where it had been allocated since 1957. It was withdrawn in early December 1963 and scrapped in January 1964. (BR Database and SLS). The location of the scrapyard is again unreported but on the grounds of previous comments suggest it's likely to have been Eastleigh.



Three from the train now, all "Redhill-Reading Line Taken in the vicinity of Dorking Town Station June 1963."







Here's a loco we've seen previously and was identified then as Willesden in May 1963. This is included in the Dorking Town June 1963 photos for some reason which may suggest that the Dorking photos are also May rather than June. This is 46125 3rd Carabinier - see post #1333 for details.



Another shown as Dorking Town is this one, actually Willesden in May 1963. 70000, Britannia as shown in post #1333.


Brian

 

[mickoo]

Brian, it's the same station.

Dorking West railway station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Just to complete the picture there are three stations in Dorking - one ex-LBSCR and two ex-SECR - each one has been renamed twice. Annotated 1:25,000 NLS OS map shows the relative locations.

 

[mickoo]

Dave, thank you for doing what I thought about doing, but ultimately was just too lazy to do

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
The purportedly unidentified location is of course D Town, the wall visible at the rear of the platform gives it away. The signal box is hiding behind the first coach if your a bit confused as to orientation. I would suggest that "in the vicinity of" is changed to "at" since they either are or elsewhere.

Your grounds for assumption are reasonable, 31635 was reduced to razor blades at Eastleigh, w/dn we 7/12/63, cut up we 1/2/64, (Irwell Press).
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Mick and Dave for the final confirmation. These can now, indeed, be correctly labelled as you suggest, Martin. Also, Martin, thank you for the confirmation about 31635 and the slight correction to the date of scrapping. Would you be kind enough to confirm your reference for this info so I can attribute it properly?

Now for a few photos - almost an intermission - which show that Tim didn't always get things right. Focus for all these is dodgy, as is exposure with a bit of camera shake thrown in on the photos of trains passing. There's no specific loco information for any of these although they are all identified as "Cricklewood Feb 61". The first and possibly the best of the bunch is View inside Cricklewood Roundhouse. I believe a Black 5 or 8F, Stanier 2-6-4T, 3F 0-6-0T, possibly a Fowler 2-6-2 or 2-6-4T and the front of probably a 3F 0-6-0T can be identified - just!.



Then, still at Cricklewood Feb 61 7P 4-6-0 Down Sheffield Express passing Cricklewood Yard


5XP 4-6-0 Up Nottingham Express Passing Cricklewood Yard.



General View Cricklewood.



This is still entitled "Cricklewood Feb 61" which it most certainly isn't. The location is Paddington and the loco is Castle 5043 Earl of Mount Edgcumbe which was an Old Oak loco and had been for many years. It ended up at Cardiff East Dock from where it was withdrawn in December 1963 (BR Database) and was one of the survivors at Woodhams. For details see 5043 Earl of Mount Edgcumbe



Consider this a bit of a hiccup - more and better photos will follow!

Brian

 

[LarryG]

View inside Cricklewood Roundhouse. I believe a Black 5 or 8F, Stanier 2-6-4T, 3F 0-6-0T, possibly a Fowler 2-6-2 or 2-6-4T and the front of probably a 3F 0-6-0T can be identified - just!.

View attachment 162845

Ivatt 2 2-6-2T(?), two Fairburn 2-6-4T's, Jinty 0-6-0T, Fowler 2-6-4T ad another jinty 0-6-0T

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your proposals re the contents of the shed, Larry. Frankly I'm in no position to disagree and both Fairburns and Jinties could be found at Cricklewood at this time. Those 0-6-0 tanks still look like the Midland version to me.....

I'm really not sure that the last post deserved the "Likes", and I reckon Tim would have agreed. There is certainly a loyal band of followers for this thread, so thank you.

Now, just to prove that those last photos were an aberration here is something better. The Railway Preservation Society organised a special for 15th June 1963 from Sheffield Victoria and return. The headboard seems to read the Great Central Special although that's not confirmed and I can do no better than quote the entry taken directly from Six Bells Junction to whom I make appropriate acknowledgement:

4472	Sheffield Victoria - Beighton Jn - Chesterfield Central - ??? - London Marylebone
4472	London Marylebone - (?reverse of outward route?) - Sheffield Victoria?

Notes:
(1) Route confirmation required - the return journey did not travel via the Chesterfield Loop. Nick Catford Comments: This was a final train over the Chesterfield Loop (closed to passengers 5th March 1963) was organised by the Railway Preservation Society for Saturday 15 June 1963. The locos owner Alan Pegler and driver Peter Reynolds met Chesterfield’s then Mayor Alderman J Anderson on the footplate. Alderman Anderson had travelled in the train from Sheffield. The Derbyshire Times of the 21 June 1963 reported: "…he [the Mayor] blew the souvenir whistle handed to him by Stationmaster Mr. E. Thompson, waved the green flag – and the train moved off. Then, in a dozen words, the Mayor of Chesterfield closed an era. “I’m a Midland man myself,” he said. “But it’s a sad occasion all the same".
​

The first photo is Tim's original and the second is my remask.



I'm going to defer to Six Bells Junction for this one as well. Tim's title is "June 1963 46245 Farewell Special Hornsey N London." There were two tours involving the ECML in June 1963 and I believe this one to be the Home Counties Railway Society "Doncaster Special" of 9th June 1963 which appears to have carried no head board. (There was another to Doncaster using 46245 on 6th June which involved Swindon somewhere in its journey, although the data on that one is very sketchy). Again, with acknowledgement to Six Bells Junction:

46245	London Kings Cross - (via ECML) - Doncaster
46245	Doncaster - (via ECML) - London Kings Cross

Notes :
(1) David Whittaker comments: A number of claims of a very high maximum speed on the descent from Stoke Summit towards Peterborough have been made for this run, some of them in the popular railway press. Figures of 119, 112 and 108 mph have been mentioned. Tellingly, however, there have not been properly detailed logs produced, with passing times, mileages and average speeds to support such claims, though a Duchess is obviously capable of high speeds over such a favourable stretch of track. The 112 and 108 mph figures were apparently recorded over one quarter mile with a wristwatch! Enough said.
(2) Formed in 1955 and originally known as the 'Middlesex Loco Spotters Club', their name was changed in the late 1950's to the 'Home Counties Railway Club' then in January 1963 it changed again, to the 'Home Counties Railway Society'.​

Princess Coronation 46245 City of London was a Camden engine in June 1963 although it moved to Willesden later in the year. It was withdrawn from Crewe North in September 1964 and was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge during December 1964.



The next one is entitled "June 1963 Hornsey N London." Not much to add to that, I suspect.



I believe this one is also at Hornsey in June 1963. Whether Tim was trying to be "arty" or this was an accidental shot we'll now never know, but it has a certain charm.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Here's something of a change in style - which was generally not perpetuated! These shots were taken around the river at Shoreham, East Sussex, scenes that are pretty much imprinted on my brain for the wrong reasons - I was at the Shoreham Airshow when the Hunter went down and we'd parked away from the airfield so walked alongside the river.

Anyway, this is Tim's "October 1960 River Adur near Shoreham". The bridge across the estuary can be seen on the extreme right. That big building centre right is Lancing College.



This is "October 1960 River Adur Crossing near Shoreham". To the best of my knowledge the viaduct is still in use.



Still in October 1960 and this is U1 Class 31891 on a Westbound Freight Crossing the River Adur near Shoreham on the viaduct. 31891 was a Brighton engine in 1960, moved to Three Bridges in October 1961 and back to Brighton in December 1962. It was withdrawn in April 1963 and was scrapped by the end of June (BR Database). The SLS varies a bit as it doesn't recognise the move to Three Bridges although it does record the double allocation to Brighton and a withdrawal date of 6th April 1963. It also advises that the loco was transferred to the Western Region on 29th April 1963! It was also recorded by the SLS in Eastleigh scrap yard on 12th May so it's reasonable to assume that the loco was scrapped there.



Finally "October 1960 Unknown loco Query M7 Crossing River Adur near Shoreham". I've had the benefit of being able to study a considerable enlargement and I'm confident that this is, indeed, an M7.



Brian