Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Dog Star]

Another unknown Black 5 attributed to South Kenton in April 1963. Two for the price of one here, as the remasked image has, for me, much more dynamism than the unmasked one. From my memory of the location I'm pretty confident that this is between North Wembley and Wembley Central looking in the London direction. That rail bridge crosses the WCML just before Wembley Central.

Brian,
We have been lineside here before... the rail bridge carries the GCR line between Neasden Jcn and Northolt Jcn. Last time there was a train working over the bridge.

regards, Graham

 

[mickoo]

Brian, you're right, I only followed the line back to the next biggest station which was Neasden and 2 + 2 =5

It looks like a link line from the GCR to the GWR which I think heads to Birmingham.

 

[Dog Star]

Just a little thing - that railway bridge is not the GCR main line which crossed the WCML at Northwick Park...

Brian (@oldravendale),

Please remember that the GCR split at Neasden... the north route passing Neasden LT depot does go past Northwick Park whilst the west route wanders through the suburbs and then joins the GW & GC Jt at South Ruislip (nearest station to Northolt Jcn.). I suggest that there are some who would consider that the GCR Main Line was that to the west rather than to the north.

regards, Graham

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The EMU is an Ex LMS Oerlikon, the black smudge on the front of the yellow panel is the above buffer beam MU hoses grouped as three which the 501 didn't have, the 501 has several much higher level junction boxes spread out under the windscreens, in addition, there is no center head code display as fitted to the 501 class.

Yes, definitely Oerlikon - as you say the MU junction box grouping and the lack of route headcode box together with the cab window width is a giveaway.

And concur it's North Wembley.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Dave..... but my books say the Oerlikons were gone by 1960. Your knowledge is extensive though, so if you say they were still about in 1963 that's good enough for me!

As for the line over the bridge, chaps, GCR it is.

Thanks for keeping the advice going and for checking the accuracy.

Brian

 

[Lyndhurstman]

Hello

I must be weird (no need to set up a poll) , but the conflation of scaffolding and wagonry in @mickoo's shot of 7007 and the backs of the buildings in the one of 7029 are of interest to me. As is the litter..

With regard to lamp positions, and the vagaries thereof, the Pannier (9659) in @oldravendale's post has an A headcode Miscellaneous: Great Western Railway Lamp Headcodes, Tail Lights and Train Identification Boards

Cheers

Jan

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Following on from @Dog Star's comments I believe the GC Neadsen-Northolt Jct and the Ashendon Jct-Grendon Underwood Jct link was built by the GC to alleviate the congestion and delays to their premier expresses caused by the Met services to Aylesbury, Watford and Verney Junction (then on a double track from Harrow to Aylesbury). And avoid Dutchlands Summit between Amersham and Great Missenden.

The two annotated 1:25,000 OS maps may place some context to readers unfamiliar with the locations.

The map below shows the lines around the Wembley/Harrow/Sudbury area and I've circled the two GC railway bridges over the LM main line, North Wembley Station and Northolt Jct to the West.



The map below shows the North End of the GC & GW joint at Ashendon Jct and Grendon Underwood Jct @Dog Star refers to.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Thanks Dave..... but my books say the Oerlikons were gone by 1960. Your knowledge is extensive though, so if you say they were still about in 1963 that's good enough for me!

If the Oerlikon units had disappeared by 1960 then it may well be one of the LMS/GEC compartment stock 3 car units. This one was taken in 1963.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Jan. I'll use that headcode chart as a reference in future.

Dave. Thank you for a very complete description of the GCR lines in NW London. That's really helpful. The area around Waddesdon and Quainton is hardly recognisable now that the HS2 chaps have their teeth in to it after years as a very pleasant and attractive backwater. Also for your comment about the Oerlikon/LMS sets.

Willesden Shed Yard in May 1963 and rebuilt Patriot 45527 Southport. It was a Holyhead engine from September 1961 and moved to Willesden in June 1963. It moved on to Carlisle Kingmoor, then Carlisle Upperby before returning to Kingmoor and withdrawal in December 1964. It went to Arnott Young, Troon, for scrapping which was completed during April 1965. (BRDatabase)



Continuing the theme so Willesden Shed Yard again in May 1963 and Britannia 70024 Vulcan. It was on the Willesden allocation at the time of the photo (it's wearing a 1A shed plate) and afterwards wandered widely around the system until landing at Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1966 where it lasted almost exactly a year before withdrawal. It went to TW Ward at Killamarsh for destruction which was completed towards the end of April 1968. (BRDatabase)



Finally for today's visit to Willesden in May 1963 is Black 5 45301 looking in fine fettle. It has a 6G Llandudno Junction shed plate where it was allocated in March 1963 until May. It moved to Cricklewood, Nottingham and finally Annesley from where it was withdrawn in July 1965. It then went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped by the end of the year. (SLS & BRDatabase)



Brian

 

[LarryG]

Rebuilt Patriot 45527 Southport has LNWR bogie wheels (probably off a Claughton).

 

[farnetti]

Thank you Dave. Actually, looking at the photo again I agree it can't be Wembley Central - the DC lines join the main line only shortly before the station and there would be more space for the sidings of Willesden Goods Yard behind the local train that's being overtaken. I suppose it could be North Wembley but I'm still thrown by that large building the other side of the bridge. Could it be Kenton? Again I'm thrown by that large building which in profile does not look like the Travellers Rest. Neither do I remember that footpath, although at the time of my train spotting most was done in Northwick Park where the Met/GC crosses the WCML.

I'll keep working on it.

I believe that the Oerlikon stock had all been withdrawn by 1960, Mick. I reckon my first guess is probably correct - it's the LMS stock which came after the Oerlikon but before the 501. See posts #29, #43 and others in "An unusual collection" on WT and by me. Semantics I know but Yorkshire Dave went to some trouble to explain the differences.

Anyway, all grist to the mill again but I just wish I could confirm the location of that Jubilee photo. Thanks again for refining and correcting the info.....

Brian

For those interested in the Oerlikon, GEC and 501 stock (and others) there is an excellent book on the subject - History of the North London Railway Volume 1 - published by the North London Railway Historical Society. I am not sure whether it is still in print.

Ken

 

[oldravendale]

The notes say Willesden in March 1963. Royal Scot 46125, 3rd Carabinier in the shed yard and carrying a 1A (Willesden) shed plate. However, this calls the date of the photo in to question as it was not transferred to Willesden (from Holyhead) until June 1963 (BR Database) or early July (SLS). It transferred away to Annesley in mid September 1963 (BR Database) or October 1963 (SLS) and was withdrawn from there in October 1964 (BR Database and SLS). It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped in January 1965 (BR Database).



Next, also at Willesden in March or possibly June 1963 is 70000 Britannia and frustratingly the shed code is obscured - it may have given a lead on pinning down the date. It was a Willesden engine between March and the end of May 1963 when it moved to Crewe North (BR Database and SLS). It then went to Crewe South and finally Newton Heath in March (BR Database) or April 1966 (SLS). It was withdrawn at the end of May 1966 (BR Database and SLS). For its history after withdrawal and as it moved in to preservation see 70000 Britannia



Now to Old Oak lineside in June 1963 with 61XX 6142 on a train of probably empty mineral wagons. That shed code looks like 81A (Old Oak Common). In April 1957, October 1957, May 1958, October 1959 and June 1964 it was at Old Oak (Locoshed books). The earliest allocation I can find on line is Southall in August 1964 from where it was withdrawn in September (BR Database and SLS). I can find no advice about where it went for disposal although scrapping is recorded as being by the end of December the same year.



Brian

 

[daifly]

Brian

The Prairie Papers #2 by Ian Sixsmith pub Irwell Press shows 6142 as an OOC loco from 4Feb39 to 24Aug64 when it moved to Southall. It was scrapped by Hayes/Birds at Tremains Yard, Bridgend by 31Dec64. Scrapping info from RailUK website.

Dave

 

[Tim Hale]

Hi,

Thanks for mentioning turning facilities at London termini,

When was the turntable at Waterloo adjacent to platform 18 taken out of use? I may well be mistaken but I dimly remember seeing an image of a V-class on it.

​

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

When was the turntable at Waterloo adjacent to platform 18 taken out of use? I may well be mistaken but I dimly remember seeing an image of a V-class on it.

The turntable shown on your LSWR signalling diagram was taken out of use and relocated when Waterloo was rebuilt in 1922.

The original LSWR turntable appears on the 1892-1914 OS maps alongside Griffin Street.



However after 1922 it had been relocated southwards beyond York Street. During this process or sometime later York Street was re-named Leake Street.

This 1944-1970 OS map shows the new turntable position and in both cases above and below it appears to be a 16m (53') turntable using the measurement tool on the NLS Maps..



Here I have superimposed the 1892-1914 map section over the 1944-70 series map (actually post 1951 as the Festival of Britain sites are shown).

The red is on the 1944-70 map and shown the pre and post 1922 turntable locations. I would suspect the post 1922 turntable fell out of use once steam was withrdrawn from the Southern Region in 1967.



Hope it helps.

 

[Tim Hale]

Thank you,

Tim

 

[oldravendale]

Dave - Thank you for that additional info which rather completes the history of the loco. As far as Rail UK is concerned I've been having difficulty accessing it since it went on the new server. However, as a result of your post I made a search via a different route and have now established how I can get the info again. Bravo mon brave!!

Tim and Yorkie Dave. Thanks for additional info about London turntables, in this case Waterloo. I had no idea there were so many around London and, I suspect, neither did most of us.

For today a brief intermission on the LMR.

June 1963 at Bushey Troughs with Britannia 70044 Earl Haig. At this time it was on Crewe North's allocation but subsequently moved to Crewe South, Newton Heath and finally Stockport Edgeley in May 1966 (BR Database) or June (SLS). It was withdrawn at the end of October 1966 and went to T W Ward, Beighton where it was scrapped by 20th February 1967 (BR Database and Rail UK).



Also at Bushey Troughs on the slow up line in June 1963 is Fairburn 2-6-4T 42096. By the direction the crew is facing it could be shunting, or perhaps more likely a view is being taken along the length of the train. 42096 had been a Watford engine since leaving the Southern Region at the end of 1959, moving to Wllesden and then Lostock Hall in June (BR Database) or July 1965 (SLS). It was withdrawn just before Christmas 1966 (BR Database and SLS) and went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was scrapped during May 1967 (BR Database and Rail UK).



Finally for today and still at Bushey Troughs and facing the opposite direction to the first two photos in June 1963 and featuring the water tower. I've spent many happy hours on that bridge watching the spectacle of the expresses dispensing water in every possible direction. This is an unidentified 8F 2-8-0 - I could take a guess at the number but that would need an element of belief! The very mixed train is of interest though - if only we had a better view of it. I assume it has a fitted head, it's on the fast up line although doesn't appear to have the scoop down and here again the crew man appears to be looking backwards - or maybe the scoop is down and he's looking for overflow from the tender.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

For today a brief intermission on the LMR.

For those unfamiliar with the locale - Bushey, Watford High Street and Watford Junction stations are circled.

 

[oldravendale]

Smashing stuff, Dave! Looking at distances on the map I'm even more inclined to believe it quite unlikely that the Fairburn was shunting.

Brian

 

[Osgood]

Lovely portrait of a clean 42096, Brian.

(Edit: Regarding the 8F) - I've never seen a water pick-up, but imagine that at relatively low freight speeds there would be at least some evidence of water loss at the scoop?

And judging by the steam drifting lazily away from the safety valves, I wonder if it just possible that the 8F is stationary.
There are no real indicators to suggest movement or at rest, but isn't that so often the case with locomotives?