Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

I would add a third, and IMHO highly valid reason, and that's reliability. Oil lamps on trains have been gone a while but in rural signalling it's probably only a decade. Failure of grid distribution potentially disables miles of railway these days.
Martin

 

[Arun Sharma]

Just an idle question really - Is there any reason why the British railway companies (later British Railways) persisted with paraffin/kerosene locomotive head and tail lamps rather than adopt electric head and tail lights early on similar to the US, Germany and France?

The first B1s were not trialled with oil lamps solely their electrical ones. There is a comment in one of the books on Thompson and his engines that the signalman at Doncaster refused to allow such an engine out of the running shed onto the main line unless oil lamps were also fitted. I will have a hunt around for the reference idc.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for picking that up, Adam. It's certainly not a van train (Tim's original description called it a parcels train so that will be corrected, and also for the details of those banana vans. Excellent and useful references too.

Thanks for the detail about 60825, John, and I wonder if Martin has found the error. I'll see if there's anything in the notes which suggests I've transcribed the number incorrectly. Also, Martin, thanks for shortening the list of possible A3s. It's quite possible there'll be a shot of another A3 in this sequence which will fit one of those you suggest.

Interesting stuff too about the A1s/A2s. As far as the electric lamps are concerned and Yorkshire Dave's follow up I suspect the situation is as Heather, Adam and Martin describe. I don't have sufficient knowledge to say how important in identifying trains lamp positions are on the continent but I wonder whether the use of relatively fragile filament lamps may have had something to do with the slow adoption in the UK. In addition I'm sure that it would have been easier for a signalman to identify train lamp positions in daylight when they are nominally in a white casing. But what do I know? If Arun can locate the reference we may have an answer.

Traditional front three-quarter views this time...

King Class 6013 King Henry VIII on an up Wolverhampton train at Old Oak Common on 1st August 1961. Home shed was Old Ok Common where it had been allocated since March 1960, moving to Stafford Road in May 1961 where it was withdrawn at the end of June 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Swindon Works at the end of the same year.



Another King, this time 6001 King Edward VII on a down Birkenhead train at Old Oak Common on 1st August 1961. The loco had been allocated to Stafford Road since 1954 and was withdrawn at the end of September 1962. (SLS). It was sold for scrap in December the same year and went to Cox and Danks, Oldbury. (BR Database).



Castle 7013 Bristol Castle on an up Worcester train at Old Oak Common on 1st August 1961. This had been an Old Oak Common engine since new in 1948 and was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped during June 1965 at Cashmore's. Newport.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

I have been looking into this locomotive electric lighting matter to see if I can shed any light, sorry. On the LNER it seems that Thompson did some experiments with an axle driven generator and equipment by Metro Vick, the A1/1 Great Northern had it fitted upon conversion, the four A2/1s were to be fitted but at least one never had it at all, and the prototype L1 lastly. None kept this for very long, it had an unfortunate tendency to unscrew itself when running in reverse.
The so called Thompson A2/3s which came along in the latter half of 1946, are really Peppercorn engines to a Thompson design and it is with Peppercorn on the LNER/ER that the significant start of this happens. The first B1 was into traffic in 1942 and along with the following 44 were fitted with oil lamp irons only. It was 1046 built by the NBL into traffic in May 46 and subsequently fitted with a Stones turbo generator and lighting at Doncaster in Oct 46 that set the precedent for the remaining B1s although surprisingly 61400 -61409 weren't so fitted. I suspect it was going out of favour by then (4/50 - 6/50). Additionally all of the Peppercorn A1s and A2s were fitted although as mentioned above some, maybe most, subsequently lost it. The Thompson A2/3s show signs of having been converted to fit electric lighting but it appears that none of them actually had it.
The contractor built L1s, NBL and RSH had it fitted, some of the Darlington built ones fitted later on and a few not at all. It seems a bit messy.
Thompson retired in June 1946 and within a short period electric lighting began to be fitted en classe. I draw no connotation here beyond recognising the fact.

Perhaps logically that son of Doncaster, Oliver Bulleid also thought it a good idea and so his pacifics were equipped with the exact same Stones equipment that the LNER settled on, with rather greater success. Perhaps the SR fitters weren't so scared of sparks given the usually fatal third rail close by.

Peter Coster in his writings on ECML matters comments most favourably on the benefits of electric lights, I'll see if I can find the passage.

Swindon and Crewe being essentially rather more conservative companies would have no truck with this new fangled electrickery.

An interesting diversion I hope, apologies Brian.

Regards
Martin

 

[Osgood]

Regarding the fragility of filament lamps - heavy duty shock-resistant bulbs became available for rough service applications e.g. work lamps, so I imagine appropriate bulbs could be sourced for such a critical job.

 

[simond]

If nothing else, the wide use of oil lights in the railway industry ensured that the infrastructure supply line and staff training was in place.

Batteries would need at least another couple of decades’ development before a reliable and portable electric tail light could be provided, I think. (When did this happen/become common?)

If you have to use oil in one place, it makes it more difficult to eliminate from another.

I suspect signal lamps were less a technical, more a Capex, issue.

 

[Heather Kay]

Swindon and Crewe being essentially rather more conservative companies would have no truck with this new fangled electrickery.

On the loco side, perhaps. The LNWR C&W department down in Wolverton were quite happy inventing electric carriage lighting.

 

[oldravendale]

Apologies are most definitely not required for your latest, Martin. I knew that quite a number of ER and SR locos had electric lamps and it always seemed extraordinary to me that they were not used. (In fact I have one of the lamps complete from a Light Pacific - well, I think that's where it's from but I guess could be from any of the electrically fitted locos. There's no railway designation on it but it's most certainly correct and in brass. I don't know which classes carried brass lamps but not all were brass as I have the "Bullseye" front from an L1 (67739) and that's cast iron.)

Tony. I didn't think my comment through, did I? Electric lamps were in use on tube trains for years and I'd heard somewhere that there were such things as shock resistant bulbs.

Simon. You raise more questions there. This is a bit of a rabbit hole and very interesting. There must be many of us who'd like to understand why the electric lamps weren't used more widely. In fact were they used at all? I guess the SR could have used them as they utilised discs and those in combination with the electric lights would have worked quite well, I'd have thought.

And Heather. You are, of course, quite right but carriage lighting is, perhaps, a different barrel of worms.

Thanks all for a stimulating discussion.

Tim's up to his old tricks here, taking photos in unusual locations.

Class W 2-6-4T 31915 on an Acton to Feltham freight at Old Oak Common High Level on 1st August 1961. Quite why Tim chose to take photos here we'll never know. Perhaps he appreciated their potential rarity. After all, why choose to stand beside a line which probably carried no more than three or four trains an hour when he could be beside the GWR or LMS main lines with their vast choice of trains? I'm so grateful that he did it, though! 31915 was a Norwood Junction loco at the time of the photo and had been since November 1960, moving to Exmouth Junction in November 1962 where it was withdrawn in September 1963. (SLS). (BR Database suggests the last shed to have been Norwood Junction and a withdrawal date of October 1963. and just to confuse us utterly WHTS advises a withdrawal date according to the SLS of November 1963.) Neither BR Database nor Rail UK can suggest a scrapyard location but WHTS advises the loco was scrapped at Eastleigh Works by the end of November 1963 - it was reported as arriving in Eastleigh Works by the Railway Observer on or after 4th November.



I believe this to be a bit further along the same stretch of line but now at Neasden. Q1 0-6-0 33012 with brakevan at Neasden 1st August 1961. It had been on Feltham's allocation since 1948, moving to Guildford in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in November. (SLS). Rail UK advises it was scrapped at Birds, Morriston although no date is given. WHTS advises that the loco was recorded by LCGB as at Swansea East Dock awaiting transfer to the scrap yard on 27th February 1965 so it was doubtless broken up soon after.



This is another location I've not seen photographed previously, on the GC line behind Neasden Met Railway Station. The bridge which can be seen in the background of the second photo (and others yet to come from this sequence) is over the Met/GC lines and is at the entrance point to the LT Neasden Works. The other side of the station building would have seen the Met electric locos barrelling through with their trains to Rickmansworth (change engines) and Aylesbury. Behind Tim were the extensive GC carriage sidings. In many trips past those sidings I only ever saw one train taken out. That was a vast resource used, probably, on a very few weekends a year.

B1 61028 Umseke on a down Nottingham train at Neasden on 1st August 1961. We've seen this loco previously as far back as post #580. 61028 was a Neasden engine from 1954. On 1st February 1958 it's shown as "On Loan" even though it remained at Neasden which coincides with the GC line becoming the responsibility of the LMR, and then allocated there on 23rd February which I suspect was to keep the Marylebone services running while Black 5s were found to replace the B1s. It was, however, allocated to Leicester in February 1959 and then Woodford Halse in the July before withdrawal in October 1962. (SLS). It met its eventual demise at Darlington where it was scrapped in March 1963. (BR Database).



I'm a bit less comfortable about the identity of this loco which is recorded as B1 61399 on an up Marylebone train at Neasden on 1st August 1961. The reason for my discomfort is that 61399 was a Sheffield Darnall engine from February 1960 until December 1962 when it moved to Canklow. (SLS). Would a Sheffield engine have found its way to London via the GC? In any event it was withdrawn in September 1963 (SLS) and scrapped at Marples and Gillot in Sheffield in the following December. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Mr Irwell's view of things
31915 Norwood Junc 20/2/32, Stewarts Lane 11/7/38, Norwood Jct 24/11/60, Exmouth Jct 19/11/62, Wdn 5/9/63, Cut up Eastleigh Works 30/11/63.
33012 Eastleigh 25/9/42 (on loan to Newhaven and Fratton) Eastleigh 45, Guildford 26/7/47, Feltham 1/4/48, Guildford 14/9/64, Wdn 22/11/64.

I wonder if the road and overbridge behind the W is Wood Lane, it's rather a long time since I was in the vicinity but a distant bell is ringing. Just to the right of the Q1 smokebox is a LQ signal arm spectacle, so I think that it and the second B1 are at Neasden South Jct, which I have a diagram for but can't quite place this LQ signal.

Is 61028 on a Nottingham train, it has a class 2 headlamp and it's a long way for non corridor stock and presumably scant lavatory accommodation. I too think 61399 is less than likely although of course not impossible, why would be my question although the stock seems more suited to a relatively long distance train.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks again, Martin. Those are all well worth adding to the descriptions - I'll do so. As for the 61028 picture I guess it could be on an Aylesbury train and Tim's description is incorrect but at this distance in time we'll never know.

Standard Class 4 2-6-0 76040 on empty stock for the Starlight Special, although it looks more like a parcels train to me at Neasden on 1st August 1961. The loco was new to Neasden in 1954 and didn't move until June 1962 when it went to Cricklewood. It was then allocated to Saltley, Aston and back to Saltley before it ended up at Croes Newydd in September 1966 where it was withdrawn in April 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohens, Morriston, in September 1967.


Even before take over by the Midland Region regular motive power on the locals were the Fairburn 2-6-4Ts and here's 42279 on a down Aylesbury train at Neasden on 1st August 1961. It was at Neasden from October 1958, then Cricklewood in June 1962 and Leicester Midland in October the same year where it was withdrawn in July 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped in Crewe Works by the end of October. (Rail UK). On the up line is one of the new, replacement, DMUs.



Fairburn 42250 on another down Aylesbury train at Neasden on 1st August 1961. This loco was at Neasden from January 1955 moving to Woodford Halse in June 1962 where it was withdrawn in December 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped in April 1965 by J Friswell at Banbury Shed. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

Nice to see the southern end of the GC. The picture of 'Umseke' in particular brought back memories - it was the first named B1 I saw as a young loco-spotter. As regards Sheffield locos working through, the old GC line saw many locos working through from the Eastern and North-East regions when I was a lad. An evening working known by local spotters as 'the York goods' regularly had a York district B16 in charge. Various types of locos, even members of the 'Britannia' class, were all performers on fitted fish trains from Immingham and Grimsby in their heyday. These workings were steadily diverted away as the line was mercilessly run down, but it was well known that the GC sheds would hang on to visiting former ex-LNER types as long as possible given the unpopularity with the crews of the ex-LMS types being allocated to them. Thus, a Canklow B1 would have been 'fair game', don't you think?

Apologies for rambling on - again!

Roger

 

[Dave Holt]

Brian. Perhaps "Starlight Special" was the nickname for the overnight newspaper train from Marylebone? The empties returned south the next morning with a couple of passenger coaches attached to the 20 or so parcels vans. It was notoriously featured stopping at Brackley, huge train with a large loco, a V2 I think, and only one or two passengers boarding/disembarking in a film by Beeching. The commentary claims the waste of such a large train for only a handful of fare paying passengers and to show how under utilised such lines were. Cynical manipulation of the truth to prove a point you might say.
Dave.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Starlight Special was the marketing name used by BR for the weekly service overnight on a Friday between Scotland (St Enoch/Waverley) and London (St Pancras/Marylebone). It ran from the end of March to mid September between 1953 and 1962. It was made up of corridor stock with seated accommodation only and was run to compete with luxury coach travel, although that journey pre M6/M74 was by no stretch luxurious. There was apparently on the Fair Friday 1961 nine separate trains from St Enoch to London. Leaving Glasgow it was often double headed, typically a 2P in front of a Black 5, the pilot coming off at New Cumnock and then an engine change at Leeds, Whitehall Jct area, othertimes it might well be a Britannia. The Brit and Black 5 would be Corkerhill engines, the 2P from Hurlford shed. BTW now both locations where you have to know where to look to find any sign at all. Obviously at least twice in both directions and often a lot more. It was by all accounts pretty successful.

There was also an overnight car carrier/sleeper service between Marylebone and St Enoch that was in operation by 1961 as a forerunner of Motorail. This was a string of GUVs with some sleepers/seated coaches and looking at IMG#2510 the last vehicle through the bridge arch is definitely a carriage rather than a straight sided van so I think the picture is of the ECS for that train, the loco certainly has ECS lamps. Besides 1st August 1961 was a Tuesday so it's not a Starlight Special.

I can't quite remember when Neadsen shed closed, (actually 1962) we have discussed this before (prob Royal Scots on the GC) but I seem to remember that locos for GC services were serviced at Cricklewood and then Willesden prior to closure as a through route.

Regards
Martin

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

Starlight Special was the marketing name used by BR for the weekly service overnight on a Friday between Scotland (St Enoch/Waverley) and London (St Pancras/Marylebone). It ran from the end of March to mid September between 1953 and 1962. It was made up of corridor stock with seated accommodation only and was run to compete with luxury coach travel, although that journey pre M6/M74 was by no stretch luxurious. There was apparently on the Fair Friday 1961 nine separate trains from St Enoch to London. Leaving Glasgow it was often double headed, typically a 2P in front of a Black 5, the pilot coming off at New Cumnock and then an engine change at Leeds, Whitehall Jct area, othertimes it might well be a Britannia. The Brit and Black 5 would be Corkerhill engines, the 2P from Hurlford shed. BTW now both locations where you have to know where to look to find any sign at all. Obviously at least twice in both directions and often a lot more. It was by all accounts pretty successful.

Hurlford is long gone, now an industrial estate, but Corkerhill is still very active and visible alongside the M77. Principle depot for diesel unit maintenance in the West of Scotland.

Ian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Ian
You're quite correct of course, inelegant phrasing on my part. What I should have said is that there is no evidence of a steam era locomotive depot, unlike say at Polmadie.
Martin

 

[Martin Shaw]

A paragraph from Peter Coster's book A1 and A2 Pacifics published by Irwell Press. It certainly supports Arun's comment previously and also why the lighting didn't last very long

The important sentence at the bottom of the previous column immediately prior to this piece says,
" It was a great pity that the operators did not allow the use of electric lighting"

 

[oldravendale]

Roger - Thanks for yours regarding B1s. I'm glad these posts draw out so many memories for you. Also your thoughts about that putative Sheffield engine rather put my mind at rest so I'll leave the identification as it is, at least for the present.

Dave, Martin and Ian. Thanks to you both for the info about the "Starlight Specials". I had a reference in my somewhat unreliable memory bank that these trains ran from London to Scotland and vice versa, were composed of non-sleeper stock and were extremely popular. In general it appears I was correct but now have so much more detail. Would "Starlight Special" stock be on the GC, though? After posting the photo I also noticed that passenger coach at the rear of the formation so, if the train carried mails and parcels as well as passengers the photo starts to make sense. Neasden Shed did indeed close on 18th June 1962 when the allocation was moved to Cricklewood, which explains the number of locos reallocated there at the time. Memory says that when Cricklewood closed on 14th December 1964 the allocation came to Willesden.

Also, Martin, thanks for building up some more background to the electric lights question. Perhaps the Southern had it right!

Another Fairburn 2-6-4T, No 42251 on an up Aylesbury train at Neasden on 1st August 1961, however this is too short to be a regular Aylesbury train so may simply be an empty stock movement. The loco was a Neasden resident from January 1955, moving to Woodford Halse on closure of Neasden in June 1962, then Bangor, Chester, Lostock Hall, Tebay and finally Low Moor in May 1967 where it was withdrawn at the end of September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Drapers, Hull, by the end of April 1968. (Rail UK).



Black 5 45004 on an up parcels and van train passing Neasden Station on 1st August 1961. The loco had been at Crewe North since October 1958, moving to Crewe South in January 1962 and finally Llandudno Junction in July 1963 where it was withdrawn in October 1966 (SLS) going to Cohens, Morriston, where it was scrapped in March 1967. (BR Database).



Stanier 2-6-4T 42604 standing light engine at Willesden Junction Station on 1st August 1961. This had been allocated to Willesden since October 1958, moving to Bushbury in June 1963 and finally Aston in May 1965 where it was immediately withdrawn. (SLS). It was scrapped on September 1965 at Cashmore's, Great Bridge. (BR Database).



We've seen this loco previously, but a lot further north, in post 2752. It's Princess Coronation City of Nottingham here on a down parcels and van train at Willesden Junction Station on 1st August 1961. It had been at Crewe North since October 1957, then Camden in March 1963 and back to Crewe North in May the same year where it was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, during December the 1964. (BR Database)



Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

Still think it's more likely to be the empty stock for the newspaper train, which definitely ran on the GC. The so called passenger coach visible at the rear could well be a Mk1 full brake to provide the guard's accommodation.
Dave.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Another Fairburn 2-6-4T, No 42251 on an up Aylesbury train at Neasden on 1st August 1961, however this is too short to be a regular Aylesbury train so may simply be an empty stock movement.

A short train is entirely possible - a bit of background first.

In January 1961 diesel units started to make their appearance and I've managed to track at least one or two workings. One was the 10.57 Aylesbury to Marylebone which then appeared to have spent the rest of the day between Marylebone and High Wycombe therefore the one in Tim's photo (post #2,830) could have originated from Aylesbury or High Wycombe depending upon the time of day the photo was taken.

I've done some digging into the August 1961 timetables and there were 13 local weekday (M-F) BR departures from Marylebone to Aylesbury between 05.00 and 19.45 of which there were only 6 between 10.00 and 17.30. The remainder of the Aylesbury services numbering around 25 (M-F) during the day were provided by LT from Baker Street between 05.30 and midnight.

In the reverse direction there were 14 local weekday (M-F) BR departures from Aylesbury to Marylebone between 07.00 and 21.45 of which there were 6 between 09.30 and 17.45 (09.41, 10.45, 10.57 (diesel), 14.08, 16.46 and 17.35). With the increased frequecy and standard 5 to 6 coach train length of the LT Aylesbury-Baker Street trains it could be quite conceivable the BR train consists of two coaches in between the rush hours.

Given the low number of BR Marylebone-Aylesbury and Aylesbury-Marylebone departures Tim did pretty well to capture these (unless they were High Wycombe services).

Coming back to post #2,830 the longer Aylesbury trains could be the 17.00, 17.07, 17.22 or 1748 rush hour trains. On the other hand they could be High Wycombe trains but I'd have to find photographic evidence of these at High Wycombe as the only ones I've seen taken there are of Western Region trains from Paddington - yuk . High Wycombe also had a regular interval service to and from Marylebone and was therefore not as erratic as the Aylesbury services.

LT ceased passenger services north of Amersham on 12th September 1961 making Tim's photos interesting during this period of the transition of the LT Aylesbury services to BR.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Still think it's more likely to be the empty stock for the newspaper train, which definitely ran on the GC. The so called passenger coach visible at the rear could well be a Mk1 full brake to provide the guard's accommodation.

Indeed Dave, you could well be right however I would offer the observation that if it is a full brake it's rather going to be at the wrong end of the train leaving Marylebone given that the last vehicle being a brake van requirements hadn't been superceded at that time. Nothing to prevent a massive shunt at the terminus of course. As a matter of interest where did this newspaper train go to?
Regards
Martin