Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Yorkshire Dave]

My understanding (not necessarily correct) is that locos were changed (LNW/LBSC) at Willesden or thereabouts on the Sunny South Express. Indeed, somewhere I have a vague recollection of reading of some comparative tests that took place when the LBSC loco continued northwards over the LNWR (possibly related to superheating). I assume an LNWR loco would be too tall to run on the LBSC as the LNW loading gauge was exceptionally generous height-wise.

My understanding is the locos were changed at Willesden. The tests were related to superheating as the LBSC Marsh I3 4-4-2T was a fuel efficient engine.

The LBSC also had a generous loading gauge (balloon stock was restriction 5 under SR days) and it may have been turntable lengths at the time which prevented other railways large locos from working through given the Marsh Atlantics were probably the LBSCs longest locomotives at a shade over 58' over buffers.

 

[40057]

My understanding is the locos were changed at Willesden. The tests were related to superheating as the LBSC Marsh I3 4-4-2T was a fuel efficient engine.

The LBSC also had a generous loading gauge (balloon stock was restriction 5 under SR days) and it may have been turntable lengths at the time which prevented other railways large locos from working through given the Marsh Atlantics were probably the LBSCs longest locomotives at a shade over 58' over buffers.

I guess there were multiple reasons why locos had to be changed to one from the company owning the line. Route knowledge for a start. The stock must have been dual braked and there might have been issues of having a vacuum braked train on the Brighton line.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Interesting to see the Fairburn 2-6-4T at Brighton in 1959.

I thought that they would have all migrated North by that date, so it's school day time again.

The beginnings of discussions about transferring the fairburn tanks away from the SR began in March 58 however it wasn't until 29/11/59 that 34 of them were exchanged for an equivalent number of standard tanks that went to Eastern and Central Section sheds. The exchange took some time and it wasn't until Mar 60 before 42101 departed for it's natural home of Watford, norf of the bleedin river, as some Londoners are want to say.

 

[oldravendale]

A bit of pleasurable traffic going on since my last post. A lovely comment, Jan @Lyndhurstman.

Interesting stuff kicked off by the Black 5 at Brighton, so thanks @40057 for raising the question and then to Roger @Roger Pound, Tony @76043, Jan and 40057 (again) and Dave @Yorkshire Dave for filling in some gaps.

I remember the Fairburn tanks on the SR as well, Nigel @46240 (and very pleased that the photos of the E4 tanks are useful) and I then remember 42101 at Watford, Martin.

Altogether some interesting stuff to add to the Brighton shed scenes file.

One more photo now from home shores before another (and possibly the last) brief sojourn in Ireland:

A USA tank, 30072 at Southampton Docks Shed on 14th June 1959. It was at this shed from at least January 1948 (BR Database) and moved to Guildford in March 1963 before withdrawal in July 1967 (SLS). On 12th August 1967 the loco was seen at Salisbury MPD alongside many other withdrawn SR locos. (SLS). It’s famously preserved on the K&WVR – see 30072 (US Army 1973, SR 72 & BR 30072)



A Class WT 2-6-4T built by the LMS/BR in 1949 for the Ulster Transport Authority. It moved to Northern Ireland Railways in 1968 and was withdrawn in 1971. No 53 was built new for the UTA.



PPs Class 4-4-0 No 74 Rostrevor built by Beyer Peacock in 1896 as a PP and rebuilt as a PPs in 1930 and here at Adelaide MPD on 7th August 1959. Just look at the quality of the coal in that tender! It moved to the UTA in 1958, was renumbered 42x in 1960 and was withdrawn in 1963.



Two of PPs Class 4-4-0 No 76 Hercules built by Beyer Peacock in 1896 on shed at Adelaide MPD on 7th August 1959 - except these are not both the same engine! No 76 was rebuilt to a PPs from a PP in 1930 and moved to the UTA in 1958 in a well patched up condition to keep it going. Note the identical patches on the tenders and cab sides of both locos. No 76 was withdrawn in 1958, one assumes as the UTA received it. Before I put up the next photos I'll see if I can get any closer to identifying the second loco of this pair.





Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

The above 4-4-0s show some residual lining on their cabs and splashers. What colour would this have been in the period shown? I assume the underlying base colour was black.

 

[daifly]

Hi Brian
I know absolutely nothing about the locomotives of Ulster but was suitable intrigued to attempt the identification of the second 4-4-0 loco in the photos above.
The general design of the locos made a date of 1896 seem a bit unlikely - 1910/20s perhaps. Investigations suggest that the locos are U2 class locos mostly built by North British. No 76 was NBL 1924-built 'Olderfleet Castle' withdrawn in September 1959 and may well be out of use in the photo. It certainly has had its nameplate removed.
Taking that a stage further, of the 18 locos built/converted to U2s, only 8 remained in use in August 59 - 72, 74, 76, 78 80, 84, 85 & 86. The second photo appears to have no backing nameplate which reduces the list to 72, 85 & 86 which were never named. Enlarging the photo on my monitor, the bufferbeam number suggests that the loco is 85. This was a MR-built loco converted by NCC to U2 in 1934.
In answer to Arun's @Arun Sharma query, wikipedia suggests "However, the livery that the UTA finally adopted saw the engines painted black with vermilion and yellow lining. Buffer beams, name and number plate backgrounds were red and the practice of putting the number on the front buffer beam was continued"
Dave

 

[oldravendale]

Agreed, Arun, but I have no first hand knowledge of the livery of either of these locos. However, looking at preserved examples the livery of passenger locos appears to have been a lightish blue with black and white lining. Here's one Tim took on a rail tour in Ireland in around 1980. (Tim's records for his black and white photos are considerably less than perfect but for the colour slides are virtually non-existent. He also used a lot of slide film where the returned slides after processing are not in dated mounts...)



As far as the second loco above so far without identification is concerned I believe it actually is another PPs, clearly in UTA ownership. That gives a very limited number of options as many/most were withdrawn by 1959 as No 76 was at the time Tim photographed it. Trying to interpret the number on the buffer beam is difficult too - it looks as though it could be 86 but that was a V lass 4-4-0 of considerably later vintage. So the options are: 42, 43 (both withdrawn 1960), 46 (1958), 50 (1960), 74 (1963 and renumbered 42X in 1960), 76 (1958), 107 (1958). Maybe someone with better sleuthing powers than I can come to the rescue.

Brian

 

[40057]

Hi Brian
I know absolutely nothing about the locomotives of Ulster but was suitable intrigued to attempt the identification of the second 4-4-0 loco in the photos above.
The general design of the locos made a date of 1896 seem a bit unlikely - 1910/20s perhaps. Investigations suggest that the locos are U2 class locos mostly built by North British. No 76 was NBL 1924-built 'Olderfleet Castle' withdrawn in September 1959 and may well be out of use in the photo. It certainly has had its nameplate removed.
Taking that a stage further, of the 18 locos built/converted to U2s, only 8 remained in use in August 59 - 72, 74, 76, 78 80, 84, 85 & 86. The second photo appears to have no backing nameplate which reduces the list to 72, 85 & 86 which were never named. Enlarging the photo on my monitor, the bufferbeam number suggests that the loco is 85. This was a MR-built loco converted by NCC to U2 in 1934.
In answer to Arun's @Arun Sharma query, wikipedia suggests "However, the livery that the UTA finally adopted saw the engines painted black with vermilion and yellow lining. Buffer beams, name and number plate backgrounds were red and the practice of putting the number on the front buffer beam was continued"
Dave

I agree the number on the buffer beam reads as 85.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks chaps, Dave @daifly and @40057. Yours crossed with mine, Dave.

I took the numbers and details from the listings of locos transferred to the UTA (which these two clearly are) in 1958 but I've not looked at the possibility of locos from other railways and whether the numbers were duplicated. Looking at the locos again there's definitely something MR/LMS 2P-ish about them which I should have considered. I'll spend some time later to review but rugby interrupts service for a few hours.

Brian

 

[daifly]

Dating the colour slide from Portrush Flyer data suggests July or Aug 1980/1/2/3 only as possible years.

Dave

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dave @daifly. You are absolutely on the money. In fact the picture preceding the two now in question is of a GNR(I) PPs and is an entirely different design and railway. The best way of dealing with this is going to be by scrapping my initial commentary and writing a new one based on the data you've provided with any extras I can get out of the Irish Steam Loco Register.

The Portrush Flyer is 1980 according to Tim's notes but I can't find it on Six Bells Junction in any of the years between 1979 and 1983....

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

I looked at the three Irish 4-4-0s this morning and became mightily confused. The first is ex GNRI PPs class number 74, renumbered 74x 3/58, renumbered 42x 3/60, Wdn 7/63.Fine thus far and then I struggled to find any GNRI 4-4-0s with Belpaire fireboxes, apart from the V and VS class three cylinder engines which neither of the last two pics were of.

After reading Dave's posts I realised that they are ex NCC U2 class locos. The first was obviously named and probably not inuse and has subtle variations compared to the other one. I think Dave's assessment of it is correct however 78 Chichester Castle still existed at the time, I think the buffer beam number is more likely 74.

The second one is in many ways far more interesting despite being nominally of the same class. The U2 class had eighteen members, 7 of which were built by the NBL in Glasgow as a broad gauge 2P, five in July 1924 and two in May 1925. The NCC built three the same also in1925. York Road rebuilt four U class 4-4-0s in 1924/1927/two in 1937, which carried the same nos 70-73 and has originated in Derby. They also rebuilt four Von Borries A class 4-4-0 compounds, 20/67/59/63 in 1929-1936 which became U2 nos 84-87, 85 was as Dave said unnamed, both it and 86 were eventaully scrapped in 3/60 despite having been out of use since 1957. The third pic could be 86 but again I think 85 is most likely from the evidence. The compounds originated from the B&NCR which the Midland Railway had interests in prior to the formation of the NCC.

The Jeep 53 was one of the two that hauled the last stone train before the end on steam on NIR.
Martin

 

[daifly]

The Portrush Flyer is 1980 according to Tim's notes but I can't find it on Six Bells Junction in any of the years between 1979 and 1983....

Brian
Try here A History - Portrush Flyer - Whitehead Railway Museum
and here Dates Of Trains - History - RPSI
Dave