Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

42880 Crewe 11/6/30, St Rollox 5/7/30, Corkerhill 8/2/36, Kingmoor 15/4/39, Hamilton 19/2/49, Hurlford 7/10/61, Ayr 9/2/63, Wdn 27/11/64.
45173 went new to Carlisle 31/8/35 although which shed is open to question but thereafter always a Northern Division or ScR engine. Wdn 23/7/64.
73008 Perth 14/7/51, Rugby Test Plant 8/9/51, Perth 22/3/52, Ferryhill 3/8/64, Wdn 20/9/65. No mention of St Blazey nor likely it ever went there.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dave. I thought we'd completed the story about the bombing of Berkhamsted but we probably have now!

And thank you Martin for completing the history of those locos.

Black 5 44880 on a freight leaving Beattock Yard on 9th September 1961. This had been a St Rollox engine for many years until moving to Motherwell in December 1962. It was withdrawn in November 1966. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Motherwell Machinery and Scrap at the end of May in 1967.



Fairburn 2-6-4T 42130 banking a freight to Beattock Bank on 9th September 1961. The loco was allocated to Beattock since August 1954 and was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was another loco that went to Motherwell Machinery and Scrap and the deed was done by the end of November 1963. (Rail UK).

Nice portrait of an LNER brake (probably to the disappointment of the photographer!). The vehicle in front is much more interesting, however, a BR dia. 2/001 Arm ME (LMR allocated) or EL (ER allocated). It's clearly loaded with something, I wonder what? Anyway, @hrmspaul has pictures. Quite an interesting looking wagon:



Stanier 2-6-4T 42440 leaving with the 9.00am to Silloth from Carlisle Citadel on 9th September 1961. The loco had been at Carlisle Canal since June 1961, moved to Wigan Central at the beginning of June 1963 where it was withdrawn at the end of September 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Wards, Sheffield, in May 1965. (Rail UK).



Pickersgill 72 Cass 4-4-0s 54502 and 54507 in store in Beattock Yard on 9th September 1961. 54502 had been allocated to Dumfries since October 1953 and was withdrawn early in October 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettleston, at the end of September 1963. 54507 had been at Dawsholm since October 1949 and was withdrawn in November 1961. (SLS). This one was scrapped in June 1963 at Arnott Young, Old Kilpatrick in June 1963. (BR Database).





A general view of Beattock Yard on 9th September 1961.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

An unidentified Fairburn 2-6-4T banking a freight out of Beattock Yard on 9th September 1961.



Seen recently in post #2771 Patriot 45546 Fleetwood (named in July 1938) on the 8.20am Birmingham train at Carlisle Citadel on 9th September 1961 with Jinty 47292 alongside. The Patriot was allocated to Warrington Dallam in April 1960 and was withdrawn in June 1962. (SLS). It was disposed of at Crewe Works in August 1962. (Rail UK). 47292 had been at Carlisle Upperby since March 1955 and was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works for scrap, completed in August 1963. (WHTS/Railway Observer).

I love the 'complete Fowler' shot depicting a parallel Patriot and a Jinty. Pat's in this condition were getting as rare as hens teeth by 1961 and I fully understand how the emotion lead the photographer take three shots. I saw one near Frodsham towards the end of the class and by this time they looked very vintage in a sea of taper boilers.



45546 and train on its way to Birmingham.



A general view from the Carlisle Citadel platform on 9th September 1961. That's probably still 45546 and train in the distance.

The series of Carlisle pics have been very rewarding, reminding me of the period I spent there in 1973 on the WCML mod. Apart from the steam locos which had of course disappeared almost everything else was pure LMS with some LNW and NE influences still readily apparent. IMG#2463 captures it very well, the only differences being the forest of OHLE and the new PSB built behind the hut in the pic middle. It was a long time ago.



V2 60951 on empty stock for the 7.20am Edinburgh train from Carlisle Citadel on 9th September 1961. It was a St Margarets engine and had been since May 1960. It was withdrawn at the end of December 1962, going to the Locomotive Works at Cowlairs where it was scrapped in November 1963. (SLS and BR Database).



Royal Scot 46130 The West Yorkshire Regiment entering Carlisle Citadel Station on a parcels train on 9th September 1961. On 9th September this was a Leeds Holbeck engine and had been since December 1959. It moved to Low Moor on 16th September and back to Holbeck in June 1962 where it was withdrawn in December. (SLS). It then went to Crewe Works where it was scrapped by the end of October 1963. (Rail UK).



Finally, to complete the far north of England and Scottish series here's Jinty 47292 again, light engine at Carlisle Citadel on 9th September 1961.



Next we'll be back in London and our more normal fare around the capital.

Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

I would have thought that the unidentified 2-6-4T is a Fairburn variant. I could just about convince myself that there is no running plate beyond the cylinder. It isn't a Standard class 4 as it doesn't have that graceful curveunder [is that a word?] on the lower tank sides.

 

[AJC]

Nice portrait of an LNER brake there, Brian (probably to the disappointment of the photographer!). The vehicle in front is much more interesting, however, a BR dia. 2/001 Arm ME (LMR allocated) or EL (ER allocated). It's clearly loaded with something, I wonder what? Anyway, @hrmspaul has pictures. Quite an interesting looking wagon:

BR Arm ME EL Diag 2/001

The first diagram 2/001 in the BR Specially constructed diagram book is for a heavily constructed, but unusually short armour plate (carrying) wagon the Arm EL or ME. Just 24ft. over headstocks they could carry 40tons. Genesis make a 4mm kit. NOTE – These photographs are low quality scans and...

paulbartlett.zenfolio.com

View attachment 203146

Stanier 2-6-4T 42440 leaving with the 9.00am to Silloth from Carlisle Citadel on 9th September 1961. The loco had been at Carlisle Canal since June 1961, moved to Wigan Central at the beginning of June 1963 where it was withdrawn at the end of September 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Wards, Sheffield, in May 1965. (Rail UK).

Adam

 

[LarryG]

I love the 'complete Fowler' shot depicting a parallel Patriot and a Jinty. Pat's in this condition were getting as rare as hens teeth by 1961 and I fully understand how the emotion lead the photographer take three shots. I saw one near Frodsham towards the end of the class and by this time they looked very vintage in a sea of taper boilers.

 

[Dog Star]

Next we'll be back in London and our more normal fare around the capital.

"Normal"? The content and comments tell a different story.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Arun. I agree. It's definitely not a Standard 2-6-4T and to my eyes most likely a Fairburn.

Adam. Indeed that's a very interesting wagon which I'd not have noticed but for your sharp eyes. What a shame there isn't more of it!

I agree with that, Larry. The original Patriots always appeared somewhat ancient compared with their rebuilt brothers and sisters, as particularly did the G2a 7F 0-8-0s. I was privileged to see both.

"Normal"? The content and comments tell a different story.

Hmm! Perhaps a rather clumsy use of language there! I should have perhaps simply called the upcoming photos "nearer to home". Anyway, upcoming they are.

Thanks all.

Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

If you will excuse yet another memory from an aged enthusiast, when I first became a 'train-spotter' the first locomotive I saw with a nameplate that I could read was 5538 'Giggleswick' - a parallel boilered 'Patriot' in the late forties - sort of 1946/48-ish. It was dirty and tired looking, taking a mixed freight south from Leicester and was signalled to take the Nuneaton branch at Wigston North junction. This loco remained in original condition until withdrawal and, to my regret, I never saw it in action again.

In my ignorance at that time I had been, until that sighting, unaware of the practice of naming engines - well, we all had to start learning somewhere! Thanks for indulging me once again.

Roger

 

[John Duffy]

Hmm! Perhaps a rather clumsy use of language there! I should have perhaps simply called the upcoming photos "nearer to home". Anyway, upcoming they are.

You left our capital at Haymarket

 

[oldravendale]

You left our capital at Haymarket

OK. Give in. "Nearer to Tim's home"...

 

[Martin Shaw]

The series of Carlisle pics have been very rewarding, reminding me of the period I spent there in 1973 on the WCML mod. Apart from the steam locos which had of course disappeared almost everything else was pure LMS with some LNW and NE influences still readily apparent. IMG#2463 captures it very well, the only differences being the forest of OHLE and the new PSB built behind the hut in the pic middle. It was a long time ago.

Regards
Martin

 

[Dave Holt]

It's definitely a Fairburn. The BR standards had a double step in the tank bottom (as well as having a more curved profile) and the Stanier locos had the bunker sides sloping in towards the top.
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Roger. These individual memories are actually very important to the thread.

Thanks too for your memories of Carlisle, Martin. Again so useful in putting the photos in an historical context.

Dave. Your confirmation is much appreciated.

So today back to London.

A series of pictures here of Princess Coronation 46250 City of Lichfield on a Carlisle arrival and one of the loco backing out at Euston on 10th August 1961. This had been allocated to Carlisle Upperby since June 1958 and was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It ended up at Arnott Young, Troon, where it was scrapped in December the same year. (BR Database).











Black 5 45096 on empty stock at Euston on 10th August 1961. I'd have expected a Willesden engine to be on a duty such as this, but 45096 was allocated to Patricroft at the time and had been there since May 1959. It then had spells at Agecroft from November 1963, Trafford Park from November 1966 and finally Rose Grove from March 1968 being one of the last survivors withdrawn on 3rg August 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Sheffield, by the end of the year. (Rail UK).

The Black 5, 45096, tender first on empty stock at Euston, with a well filled tender, makes me wonder if it was a visiting engine used for that purpose to get it down to Euston in order take out a later train back to the Manchester area. Thus saving a return light engine movement at a busy terminus?

Re the Black Five 45096 lasting to the end of steam, it makes me think that all the beggaring about with no top feed, rear top feed, forward top feed, sloping throatplate, Caprotti motion, longer wheelbase, roller bearing and making a BR version of it was a load of cocking about for no gain.




Rebuilt Jubilee 45736 Phoenix on a relief arrival at Euston on 5th August 1961. It was allocated to Crewe North and had been since September 1960. In October 1962 it went to Holyhead, thence to Camden, back to Holyhead, Willesden, Carlisle Kingmoor ending up at Carlisle Upperby in August 1964. It was withdrawn in September 1964 although the SLS then record an allocation back to Carlisle Kingmoor in October 1964. I suspect this was just for storage. (SLS). It was scrapped at Hughes Bolckows at North Blyth by the end of January 1965. (Rail UK).




Brian

 

[oldravendale]

The next photos were clearly taken during a day out in London visiting the stations and London sheds. They're in a right old jumble - I made no effort to scan in negative number order so we'll be all over the place! Still, variety is the spice of life and all that.

Hall 6900 Abney Hall on shed at Old Oak Common on 5th August 1961 and even at this relatively early date without a smokebox number plate. It was allocated to St Philips Marsh in October 1959, then Fishguard Goodwick in December 1962, Swindon in February 1963 where it was in store i September, then St Philips Marsh again in November 1963 and finally Bristol Barrow Road in June 1964. It was withdrawn in October the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at R S Hayes, Bridgend by the end of February 1965. (Rail UK).




47XX 2-8-0 4708 on shed at Old Oak Common on 5th August 1961. 4708 had been allocated to Old Oak since 1952 and was withdrawn from there in October 1962. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was scrapped in August 1963. (BR Database).



Fowler 2-6-2T 40006 on shed at Willesden on 5th August 1961. It was allocated to Willesden in May 1961 after a period as Wolverton Carriage Works shunter. It was withdrawn in October 1962 going to Horwich Works where it was scrapped in January 1963. (SLS and Rail UK).

Jim Davenport, who worked at Lees MPD in clerical before moving to Crewe, told me the cabs were very hot and the Oldham men referred to them as 'Bread Vans'. I also believe 'Novelties' was also used, maybe because they replaced the LNWR Coal Tanks on the Lees push-pull workings.



28XX 2-8-0 2836 inside Old Oak Common Roundhouse on 5th August 1961. At the time this was allocated to Didcot and had been since September 1959. It was recorded as stored in June and August 1963 but active, still at Didcot, in September but moved to Severn Tunnel Junction in November where it was withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Birds, Newport, by the end of February 1965. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[LarryG]

Re the Black Five 45096 lasting to the end of steam, it makes me think that all the beggaring about with no top feed, rear top feed, forward top feed, sloping throatplate, Caprotti motion, longer wheelbase, roller bearing and making a BR version of it was a load of cocking about for no gain.

Good to see a Fowler 2-6-2T among the pictures. I never fired one, but a small group of us trainee firemen did clamber all over some rusty ones at Bolton MPD before being less loose on a live Austerity 2-8-0 in steam haha. They were our local engines in the 1950s plodding along out of Oldham as if all day would do...

 

[simond]

it was a load of cocking about for no gain.

probably kept a load of staff employed though...

 

[Dave Holt]

The Black 5, 45096, tender first on empty stock at Euston, with a well filled tender, makes me wonder if it was a visiting engine used for that purpose to get it down to Euston in order take out a later train back to the Manchester area. Thus saving a return light engine movement at a busy terminus?
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

Larry. Thanks for starting the debate! Those are good points about the Black 5 and the different versions thereof. However, it's true to say that equipment improvements in industry are rarely by revolution, usually by evolution, (unless your name is Oliver Bulleid). ie Try a small change and see if it gives a small improvement. At the end of the day a number of these small improvements result in a significant benefit overall. And was there really no gain from those changes to the Black 5? At this distance in time it's difficult to say.

As for the Fowler 2-6-2 tanks my memories of them are on the locals from St Pancras to Luton, and probably Bedford thereafter. They can't have been bad locos after all, as they did that job for many years.

I suspect your surmise might be right, Dave. I can't be certain whether the loco is against the buffer stops, ie just brought the empty stock in, or at the country end and taking empty stock out. If the former it's more than likely that the loco will be attached to a train going north once it's been released.

Here's a picture which must be about as rare as hens' teeth or unicorn droppings. It's a 72XX 2-8-2T in Old Oak Shed, and I've never seen a photo of this class in Old Oak previously. At the time of the photo the loco was allocated to Banbury and had been there since June 1960 so around 70 miles from Old Oak. It's in the roundhouse on 5th August 1961. It was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). Its demise came at King & Sons, Norwich, in June 1964. (Rail UK).

Having had a look through the relevant book of 72xx class engines there is a photo of one of them at Reading and 7236 herself at Banbury, and the vast majority somewhere in S Wales so I think it's an extremely rare photo, almost no one would believe it without the evidence. Quite why is less easy, something exceptionally heavy into Acton, loco coal possibly?



Modified Hall 6989, Wightwick Hall, under repair at the Old Oak Factory on 5th August 1961. This is also one of the less common pictures as , although Old Oak was relatively easy to "bunk" the factory was not. 6989 was allocated to Worcester in August 1959 and moved on to Gloucester Horton Road in October 1962 where it was withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It was one of the more fortunate example of the class going to Barry Scrapyard. It has been restored and Preserved British Steam Locomotives report it to be at the Bluebell Railway where it will remain through 2024.

6989 Hereford 15/5/49, Worcester 24/3/56, Hereford 18/5/57, Worcester 8/8/59, Gloucester 6/10/62, Wdn 13/6/64.



Condensing 57XX pannier tank 9702 in Old Oak Common Yard on 5th August 1961. It had been allocated to Old Oak from at least 1948 and was withdrawn in May 1962 and went to Cashmore's, Newport where it was scrapped in November 1962. (BR Database).

9702 Apart from a spell 12/1940 - 2/1941 at Southall it was otherwise always allocated to Old Oak.



Castle 4037 The South Wales Borderers in Old Oak Common Yard on 5th August 1961. Home shed was Newton Abbot where it had been since July 1957 and it moved to Exeter in July 1962 where it was withdrawn the following September. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmores, Newport, by the end of December the same year.

4037 Rebuild of Star Class Queen Phillipa in 6/26, renamed 14/4/37
BR era Old Oak 1/1/48, Penzance 16/5/56, N Abbott 28/9/56, Landore 23/2/57, N Abbott ?/6/57, Stored ?/3/62, Exeter 14/7/62, Wdn 17/9/62,



Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

I believe the Fowler 2-6-2T's were known in some parts as 'Bread Vans'. Why, I know not! Whilst they were noted for being reluctant steamers, they were used on local turns such as the Leicester-Nuneaton shuttle in the days when I was a lad and learner loco-spotter, as I recall.

Roger