Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[mickoo]

Also, Martin, thanks for shortening the list of possible A3s. It's quite possible there'll be a shot of another A3 in this sequence which will fit one of those you suggest.

IMG#2495 The unidentified A3 can be narrowed down a bit. It looks very much like a dia 107 boiler and an obvious GN tender which reduces the possibilities to 10, and if one discounts the ScR allocated ones and the outlying ER one, eg Ardsley, then it comes down to probably one of 6.
60052 Prince Palatine Darlington, 60054 Prince of Wales Grantham, 60066 Merry Hampton Kings X, 60075 St Frusquin Heaton, 60083 Neil Gow Heaton, 60112 St Simon Grantham. Of these I would suggest either the Kings X or Grantham locos might be first choice but beyond that a pure guess.

The unidentified A3 is one of four engines, check the chimney and note the small vane smoke deflectors on top of the smoke box, only 60048, 55, 61 (seen in the same set of images also fitted) and 112.

Only one engine meets the other criteria, 60112.

 

[76043]

Is it possible the two coach train is the Harrow on the Hill shuttle? It may have been withdrawn by then? I've seen older shots of it with Gresley stock and some old GCR railmotor conversion. I can't make out the lamp codes.
Tony

 

[Dave Holt]

Martin. I believe it went to Nottingham. Presumably, places further north were served by papers printed in Manchester.
Dave.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Is it possible the two coach train is the Harrow on the Hill shuttle? It may have been withdrawn by then? I've seen older shots of it with Gresley stock and some old GCR railmotor conversion. I can't make out the lamp codes.

I didn't see any local trains from Harrow on the Hill to Marylebone in the 1961 timetable, however....

.....there were two local M-F trains starting at Haddenham at 07.57 and 20.40 and arriving at Marylebone at 09.17 and 22.01 respectively - Haddenham-Ilmer Halt-Princes Risborough-Marylebone. And there was also one M-F train which started at West Ruislip at 18.20 for Marylebone arriving at 18.49: West Ruislip-South Ruislip-Northolt Park-Sudbury Hill, Harrow-Sudbury & Harrow Road, Wembley Hill-Marylebone.

On the other hand why would BR provide a service from Harrow on the Hill to Marylebone when the LT service was more intense with trains both from Uxbridge and Aylesbury to Baker Street.

As Tim's photos were taken alongside Neasden LT (Bakerloo) station - and on 1st August during the longer summer days - it could be one of the two ex-Haddenham local trains or the one local from West Ruislip as the junction for the GC/GW Neasden/South Ruislip link via Sudbury Hill was just to the north under the bridge seen in the background. The speculation is endless .

On this NLS OS 1:1,250/1:2,500 1944-72 extract the photos are taken from the area ringed in blue and the junction for the GC/GW link is ringed in red.

 

[Roger Pound]

The only information I can dig up from my limited resources is that the 'Newspaper' was booked as a 2.32am working from Marylebone to Leicester. I do know it was a shared working between Neasden and Leicester crews. One could assume either Leicester or Nottingham was the terminating point, but I cannot help further on that.

Roger

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The only information I can dig up from my limited resources is that the 'Newspaper' was booked as a 2.32am working from Marylebone to Leicester. I do know it was a shared working between Neasden and Leicester crews. One could assume either Leicester or Nottingham was the terminating point, but I cannot help further on that.

Would the 'Newspaper' have gone via High Wycombe, Princes Risborough, Calvert or up the Met/GC via Harrow on the Hill, Aylesbury, Calvert?

 

[76043]

I didn't see any local trains from Harrow on the Hill to Marylebone in the 1961 timetable, however....

.....there were two local M-F trains starting at Haddenham at 07.57 and 20.40 and arriving at Marylebone at 09.17 and 22.01 respectively - Haddenham-Ilmer Halt-Princes Risborough-Marylebone. And there was also one M-F train which started at West Ruislip at 18.20 for Marylebone arriving at 18.49: West Ruislip-South Ruislip-Northolt Park-Sudbury Hill, Harrow-Sudbury & Harrow Road, Wembley Hill-Marylebone.

On the other hand why would BR provide a service from Harrow on the Hill to Marylebone when the LT service was more intense with trains both from Uxbridge and Aylesbury to Baker Street.

Got my Harrow's mixed up, I meant the Northolt, South Harrow, Neasden line, not Harrow on the Hill. There was some sort of shuttle service on this line, I don't have my GCR books to hand right now.
Tony

 

[76043]

Would the 'Newspaper' have gone via High Wycombe, Princes Risborough, Calvert or up the Met/GC via Harrow on the Hill, Aylesbury, Calvert?

I think the answer is in the District Controllers View book for the GCR south, unfortunately I don't have it to hand right now.
Tony

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Got my Harrow's mixed up, I meant the Northolt, South Harrow, Neasden line, not Harrow on the Hill. There was some sort of shuttle service on this line, I don't have my GCR books to hand right now.

Too many Harrows ..... Hill, Wealdstone, North, South....

Just had a look at the Eastern Region 1958 timetable and there was an infrequent afternoon service (mainly Saturdays only) between Marylebone and West Ruislip connecting with trains to High Wycombe and Princes Risborough and vice versa.

This service doesn't appear in the London Midland Region 1961 timetable and it looks like it was one of the first casualties on the transfer of the GC services from the Eastern to the London Midland Region (apart from the one West Ruislip-Marylebone service I alluded to in post #2,844). A sight of a London Midland 1959 or 1960 timetable will confirm this.

 

[Dave Holt]

The newspaper train ran to Nottingham, with a loco and crew change at Leicester. Colin Walker's Main Line Lament book recounts a 1957 footplate ride to Leicester on A3 60104 Solario. The train ran on the main line via Aylesbury.
That book and The Last Years of the GC Main Line, by Robert Robotham, contain photos of the return working, described as the Nottingham to Marylebone parcels train, returning newspaper empties.
As I said previously, the return train was used, dishonestly, by Beeching to illustrate under-used services ripe for closure.
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

There's some great stuff here about the train movements out of and in to Marylebone. Many thanks and keep 'em coming!

Firstly Dave H and Martin's comments. I suspect that it's possibly a newspaper train but it's late in the day for one running in to Marylebone, and if the train is going North overnight it has the brake van on the wrong end. What about an up parcels train? And despite your thoughts about the Manchester newspaper train it's still the wrong way round! However, (flash of inspiration) it would have come up to Marylebone (let's not get in to that one) from Manchester brake an on the rear, so to go back to Manchester would have needed the whole train turning. At this distance in time I can't remember whether there was a triangle at Neasden, but if there was.... Roger - thanks for your additional bit of info about the newspaper train. And I suspect, Dave, it would have gone via Aylesbury, but then again.....

Then Yorkie Dave. That's really food and drink stuff. My comment about the short train was based on many hours in my late childhood watching trains at Northwick Park and I never remember a train either too or from Aylesbury of only a couple of coaches. That doesn't mean there were none, of course, so your surmise might be right. Stuff certainly gets a bit complicated when you factor in the routes available to ex-Marylebone trains at Neasden. In the times I remember, when Met line trains were still going through to Aylesbury, they'd leave Baker Street behind an electric loco non-stop to Harrow (on the Hill). Although I travelled on them quite a few times I can't remember the stopping pattern after Harrow, but once at Rickmansworth for the engine change they were (generally) "all stations" to Aylesbury. I think it's a fundamental question as to why the BR services needed to be at all intensive when there was a regular Met service. (Incidentally, although the motive power from Rickmansworth was usually Fairburn 2-6-4 tanks after the L1s had gone it was not unknown for one of the Met steamers to be pressed in to service, or even on at least one occasion, a Jubilee).

Mick D. Thanks for reducing the potential list of A3s to, erm, one!

Tony. Again I don't remember a shuttle to any of the Harrow stations but it's entirely possible there was one. If it went to South Harrow I'd not have seen it at Northwick Park but South Harrow seems a rather odd destination and I only ever remember seeing LT stock there. I guess push-pull could have worked but I don't remember any run round facilities at South Harrow. I guess we have to say that Yorkie Dave probably has the answer and it may not have been Harrow at all. I think you need to locate that book right now, Tony!

Finally, at least for now, Dave H, the manipulation of facts to suit the required result was not unique. Look at the S & D and the Settle & Carlisle to name but two. Make it three with the GCR.

King 6003 King George IV on the up Red Dragon at Old Oak Common on 1st August 1961. This loco had been on Old Oak Common's allocation since at least 1947 and was withdrawn in August 1962 being scrapped at Swindon Works in September. (BR Database).



43XX 2-6-0 6385 on a down parcels train at Old Oak on 1st August 1961. It had been a Reading engine since November 1959. It went in to store in August 1963 and then to Didcot in November before withdrawal almost immediately at the end of the same month. (SLS). It was scrapped at Kings, Norwich, in June 1964.



Schools Class 30925 Cheltenham on an up train from Lymington Pier at Wimbledon on 29th July 1961. It was allocated to Stewarts Lane in February 1961 and Basingstoke in August the same year. SLS) Thereafter it all gets a bit woolly but there's agreement that withdrawal was in December 1962 and Rail UK says that was from Basingstoke. The history of the loco in preservation is well recorded elsewhere.



Standard 5 73085 Melisande on an up express at Wimbledon on 29th July 1961. It was allocated to Nine Elms and had been since June 1959. It went to Feltham in October 1965 and Easteigh a month later, then Nine Elms again in June 1966 where it was withdrawn at the end of Southern steam in July 1967. It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport, in April 1968.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Apologies for returning to Neasden....

Is it possible the two coach train is the Harrow on the Hill shuttle? It may have been withdrawn by then? I've seen older shots of it with Gresley stock and some old GCR railmotor conversion. I can't make out the lamp codes.
Tony

I've done some more digging on this West Ruislip-Marylebone service and I have come across one or two photos in my books of this service being hauled by a L1 with two gresley corridor coaches.

.....and looked at some more timetables regarding this service:

1949-1950 Eastern Region - Hourly weekday (Mon to Sat) service (dep West Ruislip for Ickenham) from 08.55 to 22.50 connected with trains from High Wycombe which at the time did not call at the intermediate stations of South Ruislip; Northolt Park; Sudbury Hill, Harrow; Sudbury & Harrow Road and Wembley Hill.

The Central Line extension to West Ruislip came into operation on 21st November 1948 which may have had a possible effect on passenger numbers and/or West Ruislip-Marylebone service was lightly used.

1955-1958 Eastern Region - by this time this service had been reduced to four at lunchtimes on Saturdays and three in the evening on weekdays (Mon to Sat). Morning rush hour trains from High Wycombe continued to call at South Ruislip; Northolt Park; Sudbury Hill, Harrow; Sudbury & Harrow Road and Wembley Hill. Also for Ickenham was dropped from West Ruislip for Ickenham to become West Ruislip.

1961 London Midland Region - this had been reduced to one evening weekday service (Mon to Sat) dep West Ruislip at 18.20. High Wycombe rush hour trains continued to call at South Ruislip; Northolt Park; Sudbury Hill, Harrow; Sudbury & Harrow Road and Wembley Hill.

As August 1st 1961 was a Tuesday with late summer evenings and if Tim's photo below was taken around 18.40 then it would be a rare catch if this was the once a day (Mon to Sat) 18.20 West Ruislip-Marylebone train. The possible timing may well fit in with the other photos taken around Neasden of the nightly parcels/newspaper train stock movment towards Marylebone and the evening rush hour trains heading towards Aylesbury - at least it would be nice to think so.

 

[76043]

That's brilliant, thanks for digging out that info on the West Ruislip trains.
Tony

 

[oldravendale]

Dave. Thank you. Once again a cracking bit of research, and the two coach trains were clearly not unknown on the GC! The only bit Tim got wrong about this was that the point of origin was not Aylesbury. As Tim lived close to London and could probably reach Neasden in an hour or so I'd not be at all surprised if this was an evening after work trip. That would make your suggestion regarding the time of the photos about right. We have more info here than for any other post I think and quite how I'm going to fit it all in to the "Subject Details" attached to the photo file I'm unsure. One or two of the entries are already too big so I'm now thinking that I'll create a reference book attached to these pictures. It'll be a terrible waste of some wonderful reference material to lose it.

Merchant Navy 35011 General Steam Navigation on a down Bournemouth train at Wimbledon on 29th July 1961. It had been allocated to Bournemouth from February 1960 where it was withdrawn in February 1966. It went to Barry Srapyard where I photographed it in 1967. It left Barry in March 1983 and went in to storage at Preston Park. It's currently under an extremely long term restoration programme - to air smoothed condition - at the Swindon and Cricklade Railway.



Schools Class 30925 Cheltenham at Waterloo on 29th July 1961. What's the tilley lamp for, I wonder? We saw this loco on the same day at Wimbledon in post #2851. It was allocated to Stewarts Lane in February 1961 and Basingstoke in August the same year. (SLS). Thereafter it all gets a bit woolly but there's agreement that withdrawal was in December 1962 and Rail UK says that was from Basingstoke. The history of the loco in preservation is well recorded elsewhere.



Back to Neasden and Fairburn 2-6-4T 42157 on a down Aylesbury local at Neasden on 1st August 1961. In general these locos ran smokebox leading when going up to Marylebone. It was allocated to Neasden in January 1960 and moved away to Woodford Halse in June 1962 when Neasden closed and was the withdrawn in July 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works in November. (Rail UK).



Another Fairburn 2-6-4T, No 42284 again at Neasden with a down Aylesbury local on 1st August 1961. Another Neasden engine since June 1958 it moved to Saltley in December 1961, then Rowsley, Leicester Midland, Nottingham and finally Derby in November 1964 where it was withdrawn in December. It went to Cashmore's, Great Bridge, where it met its end in July 1965.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

30925 was wdn from Basingstoke along with 30926 and 30934 on 29/12/62. There was a massive cull of SR locos on that date and seems to have been an accountancy exercise, lots of earlier locos including the Brighton K's en masse, which seem to have been discarded without any consideration for traffic needs. All three were long term allocations to Bricklayers Arms prior to the Kent Coast electrification and were allocated to B'stoke between Aug 61 and Jan 62. They replaced three others of the class 30904/5/8 which had been there only from 1958/9 and were withdrawn late 61. I presume they were used on the semi fasts to Waterloo, so Tim's photo is unusual in that the loco was officially still allocated to Stewarts Lane. I think the Tilley lamp might be a hurricane lamp, should have paid attention in the scouts.


I found this, and of notice is the headcode board on the loco which along with the trains is going in the general WR direction, is it a Wembley Stadium special perhaps? Also the signal just to the right of the sidings, this is the spectacle which is just visible to the side of the Q1 smokebox in #IMG2507 upthread. Given that most of the signals were UQ the retention of a LQ ex GC signal must have been something fairly rare by that date.
Regards
Martin

 

[Barry37]

At this distance in time I can't remember whether there was a triangle at Neasden, but if there was...

Railmaponline shows a "loop" to the west of Neasden, east of Wembley Stadium - between the Harrow line, and the line to High Wycombe. This could, perhaps, have been used to turn whole trains. There's no trace of it on the satellite view, other than some of the warehouse boundaries follow some of the line's route.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Yes there was a loop which was built in 1923 to serve Wembley Stadium and a year later the 1924 British Empire Exhibition (the staduim is just off the extract below to the left). The station was subsequently used for football specials and closed in 1969. Trains ran in a clockwise direction and I wouldn't know if trains were turned there.

Not to be confused with the Chiltern Line Wembley Stadium station renamed from Wembley Hill.

This annotated NLS OS 1944-72 1:1,250/1:2,500 extract shows the location.

 

[76043]

Wembley Exhibition railway station - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Tony

 

[oldravendale]

Martin - I remember that "cull" and the subsequent concerns by the SR that they had insufficient motive power when they'd just been put in a position by people who plainly failed to understand that locos needed servicing and broke down on occasions. Some of the engines which went for scrap were less than a year out of works. It was also recorded that it was pretty much a straight accounting exercise. Good accountants who work to understand the business are worth their weight in gold. Bad ones who fail to explore the down side of their decisions are a disaster. I've worked with both, one of whom never understood that our machines needed servicing from time to time and always insisted that capacity was based on speed only at 100 % of theoretical output and that machines never broke down or occasionally produced faulty product. Such a principle appears to have been applied here. Before accountants on this forum start throwing sharp implements at me this is only based on my experience and has no scientific research to back it up, although I'll stand on the parapet to defend my corner!

The Wembley Stadium loop may account for the loco in your picture being "smokebox leading" when the tanks normally ran "bunker leading" out of Marylebone - certainly on the Aylesbury trains and, I suspect, the others too. Here are two not wonderful photos from my collection taken on the loop and in both cases the locos are smokebox first. (Copyright is mine). Notice the headboard of the loco in the second photo which matches that on your picture, Martin, although carried on a different lamp iron.





These loop pictures also expand your info, for which I thank you, Barry, and also Dave for really good better particulars expanded by Tony. I'm going to need a new notebook to collect all this extra stuff about the services out of Marylebone, rarely photographed and for which we're again in debt to Tim.

Brian

 

[LarryG]

I think some accountants have two heads! . One told me to raise my prices by a particular percentage each year without any further consideration, yet when I went 'full-time' back in the early 1970s and began to raise my prices to a more realistic level, the first person to give me grief was an accountant who happened to be a customer!