Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

A bit more grist
Having had a look through the relevant book of 72xx class engines there is a photo of one of them at Reading and 7236 herself at Banbury, and the vast majority somewhere in S Wales so I think it's an extremely rare photo, almost no one would believe it without the evidence. Quite why is less easy, something exceptionally heavy into Acton, loco coal possibly?

6989 Hereford 15/5/49, Worcester 24/3/56, Hereford 18/5/57, Worcester 8/8/59, Gloucester 6/10/62, Wdn 13/6/64.
9702 Apart from a spell 12/1940 - 2/1941 at Southall it was otherwise always allocated to Old Oak.
4037 Rebuild of Star Class Queen Phillipa in 6/26, renamed 14/4/37
BR era Old Oak 1/1/48, Penzance 16/5/56, N Abbott 28/9/56, Landore 23/2/57, N Abbott ?/6/57, Stored ?/3/62, Exeter 14/7/62, Wdn 17/9/62,

 

[LarryG]

I believe the Fowler 2-6-2T's were known in some parts as 'Bread Vans'. Why, I know not!

Jim Davenport, who worked at Lees MPD in clerical before moving to Crewe, told me the cabs were very hot and the Oldham men referred to them as 'Bread Vans'. I also believe 'Novelties' was also used, maybe because they replaced the LNWR Coal Tanks on the Lees push-pull workings.

 

[daifly]

I thought I had a view of 7234 at OOC but, on closer inspection, it was actually at its home shed - Newport Ebbw Jcn. A mislabelled photo now rectified!
Here's 7207 at Banbury 28Aug61


7221 is at Reading in Jul64 according to info with the photo.


Dave

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Roger and Larry, for the info on the "Bread Vans". Not a description I've heard previously.

Martin - as ever, thanks for the additional grist.

Dave. Those photos are really interesting from my point of view as the 72XX locos to which you refer are actually relatively quite close to London. Perhaps the visit of 7234 was not unique. If we researched in the "Trains Illustrated" of the time the visit may have been mentioned in the traffic pages which wallowed in sightings of unusual or rare locos in unexpected locations. As for 7207 at Banbury - it was allocated there from June 1960 to November 1964 when it was withdrawn. Banbury is about 70 miles from Old Oak which may have been a stretch for a 72XX although it's possible to imagine that it made a servicing stop at another shed along the way. I wonder why there was a need for such a powerful freight loco there. It's not exactly a hive of industry! 7221 was also allocated to Banbury but only from December 1963 to November 1964 so is another potential visitor to London in some sort of special circumstances. I'm glad we've helped to positively identify the photo of 7234. Smashing photos for sure.

A Jubilee recorded as 45674 but actually 45647 Sturdee on a down relief passing Willesden No 1 box at Willesden Junction on 5th August 1961. It was allocated to Aston in February 1060, transferring to Crewe North in June 1962, then Saltley, Farnley Junction, back to Crewe North and finally Leeds Holbeck where it was withdrawn in April 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped in September 1967 at Cashmore's, Great Bridge. (BR Database).



Several shots of Princess 46208 Princess Helena Victoria on shed at Willesden on 5th August 1961. Seen previously in posts #2528 and #2631 46208 had been an Edge Hill engine since 1951 and was withdrawn in October 1962. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works and was scrapped in November. (Rail UK).









Rebuilt Crosti 9F 92025 on shed at Willesden on 5th August 1961. It's been on these pages previously, in post #536 where it's shown in its original form. Alongside is named Black 5 45156, Ayrshire Yeomanry, a somewhat rare visitor. 92026 was at Wellingborough from May 1961, then Kettering in August 1963, Kirkby in Ashfield, Newton Heath, Birkenhead Mollington Street and was withdrawn from Speke Junction in November 1967. But this is according to the SLS and there is no allocation date for Speke Junction which suggests the last shed was actually Birkenhead as reported by Rail UK possibly with the loco stored at Speke Junction after withdrawal. It was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie, during April 1968. (BR Database).

45156 was allocated to Newton Heath in April 1957, thence to Bolton in December 1962, Warrington Dallam, Edge Hill, Patricroft and finally Rose Grove where it was withdrawn at the end of steam in August 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Sheffield, by the end of December 1968. (Rail UK).



A3 60103 Flying Scotsman making its way to the servicing depot at Kings Cross Station on 5th August 1961. The history of this loco is, of course, well known. Suffice to say that it was a Kings Cross engine and had been since April 1957, withdrawn in January 1963. (SLS).



A1 60144 King's Courier arriving at Kings Cross from York on 5th August 1961. Home had been Doncaster since November 1957 and it was withdrawn from there in April 1963, going in to Doncaster Works for cutting up in May.



A1 60136 Alcazar awaiting right away with the Talisman at Kings Cross on 5th August 1961. This loco has been discussed previously in posts #1742 and #1750. It was a Doncaster engine confirmed by the 36A shed plate and had been since since April 1959 being withdrawn from there on 22nd May 1963. (SLS). It lasted barely a week thereafter being scrapped at Doncaster Works by 29th May. (BR Database).

Look at the chap in the foreground. Could have been me! except that I didn't carry my ABCs around with me. The look on his face says "Oh no! Not bloomin' Alcazar again."



Brian

 

[Rob R]

Brian,
Re 72xx at Banbury. There was still a lot of Oxfordshire ironstone being extracted in the early 60's. Heavy stuff to shift around.

 

[Arun Sharma]

Interesting picture of the front end of 70042 Lord Roberts at Willesden in the company of the ex-Crosti 8/9F. The Brit has not yet received its oval buffers. Anyone who has built a 7mm DJH Brit will have noted the slip of paper in the box where DJH will replace the round buffers for oval ones if the modeller is building 70042.

Sorry - Brain failure - the Brit with the oval buffers was 70045 [following a minor altercation around 1966]

 

[Dog Star]

As for 7207 at Banbury - it was allocated there from June 1960 to November 1964 when it was withdrawn. Banbury is about 70 miles from Old Oak which may have been a stretch for a 72XX although it's possible to imagine that it made a servicing stop at another shed along the way. I wonder why there was a need for such a powerful freight loco there.

As noted above, 7200s which were allocated to Banbury would have been used for the iron ore traffic from the Oxford Ironstone Company sidings to the north of Banbury station. I do not think iron ore was worked down towards London from Banbury, more likely that an engine south of Banbury was a stand-in to cover a failure of another engine which was working an up freight towards the capital.

As an aside the 7200s from South Wales worked coal trains through to Salisbury.

I understand that the class nickname was "Piddlers" because water would leak from the balance pipes between side tanks and bunker tank; the length of the engine was such that the stresses on the balance pipes lead to cracks in the metal - several, including 7202 at Didcot, finished their lives with the metal pipes replaced by large (6"?) diameter rubber pipes between the tanks.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Rob for picking up the bit about the Oxfordshire ironstone. I'm kicking myself for that failing to register when I wrote my piece. Also to Dog Star for your further and better particulars. As you suggest substitution of the 72XX for a failed loco seems most likely and in view of the distances they travelled to get to Salisbury I guess London was actually well within their capabilities.

Arun - I have to admit that I'd not a known one way or the other about the Brit buffers, so thanks for correcting your initial post which would have been included with the picture otherwise.

I'm intending to be back later today with more pics but I'm just about to do a security sweep on my PC...

 

[Roger Pound]

Just a thought-cum-question. Would or could 7202 have been used in freight transfers from Banbury to Woodford Halse (GC)? It was not unusual for such workings to arrive at Woodford with a WR locomotive which would then be taken off and the train continued behind an ER or, in later days LMR locomotive. I must confess that the only personal knowledge and published photographic evidence I have seen was of 28xx loco's with such trains at Woodford. I acknowledge that the bulk of such freight workings may have originated from beyond Banbury, thus ruling out the likely use of 7202, but it is just an intriguing thought upon which I am sure those with better knowledge of WR workings may explain at length.
Thank you in advance, fellow Thunderers.

Roger

 

[oldravendale]

Yet another possibility, Roger. We know that if one was really lucky, right place, right time, some extraordinary and very unlikely workings could be seen in the late 50s or early to mid 60s. (That's 1950s - 1960s, not 1850s for the sake of clarification). Trains Illustrated was really good at detailing such unusual workings. Nowadays everything looks the same so such experiences are not possible. (Ducks behind a parapet and hides).

Rapidly moving on.

I've just noticed that the picture of Alcazar shows an A1 with no electric head lamps. On checking back through Tim's photos I can't find another, although I've not examined every single photo. Was Alcazar unique?

Royal Scot 46144 Honorable Artillery Company on arrival at Euston on 5th August 1961. By now a Willesden engine, confirmed by the 1A shed plate, it went to Llandudno Junction in September 1961 and finally Crewe North in July 1963 where it was withdrawn in January 1964. (SLS). It went in to Crewe Works to be scrapped which was completed by the end of January. (Rail UK).



Double heading Black Fives 44874 and 45222 on a down Manchester and Colne train at Kilburn High Road on 5th August 1961. Seen previously in post #2658 44874 had been a Carnforth engine since October 1950, then Stoke from August 1961 and back to Carnforth in September 1961 and was withdrawn at the end of main line steam in August 1968. (SLS). It went to Draper's at Hull and was scrapped by the end of March 1969. (Rail UK).

45222 was allocated to Willesden in December 1960, moved to Rugby in September 1961, then Rugby in September 1961 followed by Bletchley, Bescot, Banbury, Colwick and then Newton Heath in November 1966 where it was withdrawn in February 1967. (SLS). Drapers of Hull did the deed which was completed by the end of July 1967. (Rail UK).




An unidentified A3 leaving Kings Cross on 5th August 1961.

The unidentified A3 can be narrowed down a bit. It looks very much like a dia 107 boiler and an obvious GN tender which reduces the possibilities to 10, and if one discounts the ScR allocated ones and the outlying ER one, eg Ardsley, then it comes down to probably one of 6.
60052 Prince Palatine Darlington, 60054 Prince of Wales Grantham, 60066 Merry Hampton Kings X, 60075 St Frusquin Heaton, 60083 Neil Gow Heaton, 60112 St Simon Grantham. Of these I would suggest either the Kings X or Grantham locos might be first choice but beyond that a pure guess.

Only one engine meets the other criteria, 60112.

A3 60112 St Simon has been seen a long while ago, in post #821. It had been a Grantham engine since July 1959, moving to Doncaster in October 1963 and New England in November the same year where it was withdrawn in December 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at A King & Sons, Norwich, by the end of February 1965. (Rail UK).





V2 60825 and A3 60061 Pretty Polly backing in to Kings Cross on 5th August 1961. That coal on the tender of the A3 looks a bit high! I'm doubtful about the identification of the V2 because 60825 was allocated to St Margarets at the time of the photo and was withdrawn from there in April 1964. It was then recorded at Dundee Tay Bridge in May 1964 so probably in storage (SLS) but probably not the loco we have here.

60061 Pretty Polly was seen last in post #1954. It was a Kings Cross engine in November 1959 but moved to Grantham in June 1963 and was withdrawn in October. It had received trough deflectors in February 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in October at Doncaster Works. The Railway Observer report it as being in the works yard on 6th October 1963.



Here's 60061 again on the 12.55 to Wakefield from Kings Cross on 5th August 1961.



A1 60136 Alcazar again, but here backing out of Kings Cross on 5th August 1961. See post #2804 above for details



Brian

 

[LarryG]

The picture of 60061 enveloped in drifting steam while departing with the 12.55 to Wakefield reminds me that your photographer so often captured steam days as it really were. Many railway photographers" look for the perfect shot and miss the atmosphere.

 

[Roger Pound]

. Nowadays everything looks the same so such experiences are not possible. (Ducks behind a parapet and hides).

I'm with you on that one, Brian. (I have a trench and tin hat......!)

Roger.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your comment, Larry. Tim was good at taking grabbed shots and those which were a bit impressionistic. Many did not work out but those that did are well worth publication. Having said that he was certainly also happy with the "front three-quarter" view.

Thanks for yours too, Roger. When the shells stop coming over I'll join you in your trench. Do you have a spare tin helmet?

A4 60003 Andrew K McCosh on the 1.18 Leeds train at Kings Cross on 5th August 1961. We've seen this loco previously, for example in post #1575. It had been a Kings Cross engine since 1957 and was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster in January 1963. (BR Database). Note the little chap walking up the platform with his mobile phone to his ear except they'd not be invented for another 30 years or so.



A3 60103 Flying Scotsman backing out of Kings Cross on 5th August 1961. Seen only a couple of posts ago, see #2804, I'll not repeat details here.



Castle 4085 Berkeley Castle moving light engine towards Paddington at Old Oak Common on 1st August 1961. Another we've seen previously, in post #1509 4085 was an Old Oak engine in 1961. It was withdrawn in May 1962. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's, Newport for disposal which was completed in October the same year. (BR Database).



57XX pannier tank 9784 on a down van train at Old Oak Common on 1st August 1961. This was a long term resident of Old Oak, having lived there since at least 1947. (BR Database). It was withdrawn at the end of May 1963 and unusually, although not uniquely, went to Plaistow Shed where it was scrapped by Mumford Ltd by the end of January 1964. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[AJC]

Thanks for your comment, Larry. Tim was good at taking grabbed shots and those which were a bit impressionistic. Many did not work out but those that did are well worth publication. Having said that he was certainly also happy with the "front three-quarter" view.

Thanks for yours too, Roger. When the shells stop coming over I'll join you in your trench. Do you have a spare tin helmet?

A4 60003 Andrew K McCosh on the 1.18 Leeds train at Kings Cross on 5th August 1961. We've seen this loco previously, for example in post #1575. It had been a Kings Cross engine since 1957 and was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster in January 1963. (BR Database). Note the little chap walking up the platform with his mobile phone to his ear except they'd not be invented for another 30 years or so.

View attachment 203691

A3 60103 Flying Scotsman backing out of Kings Cross on 5th August 1961. Seen only a couple of posts ago, see #2804, I'll not repeat details here.

View attachment 203692

57XX pannier tank 9784 on a down van train at Old Oak Common on 1st August 1961. This was a long term resident of Old Oak, having lived there since at least 1947. (BR Database). It was withdrawn at the end of May 1963 and unusually, although not uniquely, went to Plaistow Shed where it was scrapped by Mumford Ltd by the end of January 1964. (Rail UK).

View attachment 203694

Brian

Not a van train as such - there are some open highs about halfway down the rake - but the first five are insulated banana vans (you can make out the yellow discs indicating that). The one closest to the pannier is one with 8 shoe brakes, and may well be ex-LMS. The remainder, with Morton brakes (as shown by the visible tie bars) are very likely to be BR dia. 1/242, examples of which are found here:

BR Banana vans and barriers RBV ZDV ZRV

BR built two distinctive designs of Banana van, initially following LMS ideas. They went out of revenue use in the 1970s when some had second careers as barriers, again short-lived when air braking became necessary for these. NOTE – These photographs are low quality scans and may not print well...

paulbartlett.zenfolio.com

Banana vans tended to hunt in packs (bunches, if you will), so a characteristic of the traffic. More details - and some excellent images - can be found in Eric Kemp's collection showing Lingfield's banana depot and associated wagons, here:

B.R. 8Ton & 12Ton Banana Vans, 1968-1971 - Eric Kemp

All photographs on this site, unless otherwise credited, are by myself (Eric Kemp) and have been uploaded for the personal use of fellow railway modellers/enthusiasts. Should you wish to use them for non-profit making purposes, such as society magazine/journal articles etc., then please credit...

erickemp.smugmug.com

.

Adam

 

[John Duffy]

V2 60825 and A3 60061 Pretty Polly backing in to Kings Cross on 5th August 1961. That coal on the tender of the A3 looks a bit high! I'm doubtful about the identification of the V2 because 60825 was allocated to St Margarets at the time of the photo and was withdrawn from there in April 1964. It was then recorded at Dundee Tay Bridge in May 1964 so probably in storage (SLS) but probably not the loco we have here.

Whilst it's unlikely to be the loco photographed. 60825 was confirmed in use 15 April 64. It was withdrawn from DTB a few days later.

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

‘Note the little chap walking up the platform with his mobile phone to his ear except they'd not be invented for another 30 years or so.’

More likely averting his eyes and saying ‘not McCosh again!’

 

[Martin Shaw]

IMG#2495 The unidentified A3 can be narrowed down a bit. It looks very much like a dia 107 boiler and an obvious GN tender which reduces the possibilities to 10, and if one discounts the ScR allocated ones and the outlying ER one, eg Ardsley, then it comes down to probably one of 6.
60052 Prince Palatine Darlington, 60054 Prince of Wales Grantham, 60066 Merry Hampton Kings X, 60075 St Frusquin Heaton, 60083 Neil Gow Heaton, 60112 St Simon Grantham. Of these I would suggest either the Kings X or Grantham locos might be first choice but beyond that a pure guess.

The Peppercorn A2 and A1 classes were all fitted with electric lighting initially, however 8 of the A1s had it removed later on, 60117/21/36/41/2/6/60/2. This seems to have been as a result of it falling into disuse rather than any high level policy decision. In the case of 60136 this happened at a works visit in June 1957. In connection with reports of rough riding some investigations into valve timings were instigated using Alcazar the result being that the independent sets of Walschearts valve gear gave as poor middle cylinder results as Sir Nigel's conjugated valve gear which did result in a change in valve setting practice. Since it wasn't valve events causing the roughness a modified A4 front bogie was fitted to 136, that class of loco being noted for smooth riding. This was from late 57 until possibly 5/59.

I wonder if the V2 might be 60925, it being a York engine and I have found a photo of it standing in for the usual A4 on the up Tyne-Tees Pullman so it got to London at least once. A mere thought.

From a v grey Scotland.
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The Peppercorn A2 and A1 classes were all fitted with electric lighting initially, however 8 of the A1s had it removed later on, 60117/21/36/41/2/6/60/2. This seems to have been as a result of it falling into disuse rather than any high level policy decision. In the case of 60136 this happened at a works visit in June 1957.

Just an idle question really - Is there any reason why the British railway companies (later British Railways) persisted with paraffin/kerosene locomotive head and tail lamps rather than adopt electric head and tail lights early on similar to the US, Germany and France?

 

[Heather Kay]

Just an idle question really - Is there any reason why the British railway companies (later British Railways) persisted with paraffin/kerosene locomotive head and tail lamps rather than adopt electric head and tail lights early on similar to the US, Germany and France?

Perhaps the infrastructure to support such lamps was there. I know oil tail lamps were only phased out a couple of decades ago.

 

[AJC]

Perhaps the infrastructure to support such lamps was there. I know oil tail lamps were only phased out a couple of decades ago.

Partly capital cost, partly innate conservatism (granted, there were big disconnects in the mid-century railway in this regard - remember that the first generation of DMUs had to run with oil tail lamps despite electric ones being built in?). It seems very odd in hindsight, doesn’t it?

Adam