Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

As far as I can find out the following 8Fs had Fowler 3500 gallon tenders around the period 1957-1962. Thereafter withdrawal of Jubilees with Stanier tenders tended to see them return to the 8Fs, which in my opinion looked even more ridiculous with the older tender than the 5XPs.
48045/46/165/250/4/8/340/68/426/56/79/521/55/601-3/5/10/13/24/28-9/32. It is by no means definitive as part 5 of Irwell's series has yet to be published.
Regards
Martin

 

[Dave Holt]

The Wild Swan profile book also lists the 3500G tender allocations in Appendix C. Going on from Martin's list, locos were 48648/9/58/79/97/711/17/22/25/33/52 and 55. There were others starting in 1960.
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Jan, for the comments about the wagon. As ever, much appreciated.

And thanks too for all the detailed and better info about the Fowler tenders. That's expanded the knowledge base a bit!

Still at Bushey.....

An unusual combination which I initially thought may be to return one or other loco to its home depot, thus avoiding a additional path being found. A loco failure, perhaps? However, it's a blooming long train so perhaps needed the two locos or maybe it was going to be split somewhere. Tim records this as a down Birmingham train which would not often if ever have a Princess Coronation as motive power - in fact a Birmingham train would rarely have been this long. Anyway, what we do know is that the locos are Black 5 44860 and 46244 King George VI at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962. 46244 was a Carlisle Kingmoor engine and withdrawn from there in September 1964 (SLS). It then went to Arnott Young at Troon where it was scrapped in December the same year. 44860 was a Rugby engine which, as was common with the Black 5s, moved around a bit before ending up at Stoke where it was withdrawn in January 1967. (SLS). It went to Cohen's at Kettering where it was dismantled in April 1968. (BR Database).





Another Princess Coronation, this time 46253 City of St Albans within spitting distance of its namesake on a down Perth train at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962. It lived at Crewe North from where it was withdrawn in January 1963. (SLS). It was demolished at Crewe Works by the end of May. (Rail UK).



Black 5 45197 on a down freight at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962 - or was it shunting? Home depot was Warrington Dallam at the time although it moved around a bit including a period on the Midland main line before ending up at Lostock Hall where it was withdrawn in January 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport, during July 1967. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[mickoo]

The Black five is a pilot and not unusual even on the southern (flatter) section of the WCML, I think the loading for a Princess Coronation is 15 unassisted though that does depend on the traffic. A boat train is heavier than a normal express and troop trains were even heavier for the same amount of stock. I think 18 was the maximum due to length restrictions more than anything.

Birmingham is an odd destination for a train that big, typically boat trains were that size and heading for Liverpool. The only other thing I think it might be is a troop train, squaddies were shipped en mass to training grounds from barracks by train, they may be coming back from Salisbury (Clapham - OOC - Willesden) or heading to Wales for manoeuvres.

As a side note, the Coronation took water, the Black Five didn't, I suspect the Black Five will take it at Castlethorpe.

 

[Roger Pound]

May I venture a suggestion that 44860 might have just been working back to it's home depot. Such moves were not uncommon to avoid light engine paths being found. The train, although long, could I feel, have been handled comfortably by the Pacific to Birmingham from Rugby solo.

Roger

 

[LarryG]

Another is that the Black Five was a pilot engine for route knowledge rather than simply taking a pilotman on board the Pacific.. I recall a cup match somewhere where the Bulleid Pacific's were piloted by LMR 8F engines...

As regards loading, 18 coaches were quite normal in the early postwar years behind LMS Pacific. You rarely saw Gresley Pacifics being tasked.... I'll leave the room at this point....

 

[mickoo]

As regards loading, 18 coaches were quite normal in the early postwar years behind LMS Pacific. You rarely saw Gresley Pacifics being tasked.... I'll leave the room at this point....

ECML loaded to 18, maybe not as often as the WCML but there have been instances, 16 I think was more common for a heavy train. All regions post war loaded heavily, then came the affordable family car and loadings declined there after.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Mick. I know that memory often fails nowadays but I never remember the Princess Coronations being piloted - and only rarely the Royal Scots come to that. Certainly the Jubilees were quite often double headed with a Black 5. However, that's not in any way a definitive statement, probably just a fading memory.

Roger - you may well be correct and that was my first thought.

Larry - I've seen similar photos and in my probably faulty memory I think the photos were in Birmingham.

This is the last tranche at Bushey for the time being. After this we're back in Ireland.

Standard 5 73033 on a down fitted van train at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962. It was allocated to Willesden and after that moved all around the WCML sheds, ending up at Patricroft where it was withdrawn at the end of January 1968. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's at Newport where it was scrapped at some time during May. (BR Database).



Mickey Mouse 46431 on an up parcels at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962. It was a very local engine actually being shedded at Watford at the time. It ended up at Carnforth where it was withdrawn in March 1967. (SLS). It then went to Motherwell Machinery & Scrap at Wishaw where it was scrapped by the end of the year. (Rail UK).


Black 5 44936 on up empty stock at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962. It's carrying a reporting number which looks as though it might be 3Z31. Would an empty stock train be carrying such a reporting number? The loco belonged to Northampton but the last shed was Carlisle Kingmoor where it was withdrawn in August 1967. (SLS). It went to J McWilliams at Shettleston where it was scrapped by the end of November.



Royal Scot 46147 The Northamptonshire Regiment on an up fitted freight at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962. It was at Willesden at the time and was withdrawn in December. It then went to Crewe Works where it was scrapped in March 1963.



Brian

 

[AJC]

I’m sure that 45197 is performing some sort of shunting move, albeit one that looks rather strange - mostly because of the large number of coal wagons behind the engine (which seems more than Bushey yard might want it cater for), whatever, clearly the available headshunt wasn’t sufficient for the job.

Adam

 

[Martin Shaw]

I have dug out the signalling diagram for Bushey, there appears to be not much headshunt for the sidings abutting the up slow so a shunt as shown is quite likely, I think Adam is right. There is also the siding in between the slow and fast lines, I think possibly used as a refuge for the down slow, there was no connection betwixt fast and slow at Bushey but there was at Hatch End and Watford.
Regards
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Just to corroborate Martin's note this OS extract from NSL archives show little or no headshunt for the yard at Bushey.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Adam, Martin and Dave for your comments about Bushey Yard (now a builder's yard). There's a certain sense of deja vu here as I'm pretty sure Mickoo has also commented on the yard at Bushey but I can't locate the relevant post..... or maybe I'm just imagining it. Anyway, details now added to the info re the 45197 shot.

Once again we move to something completely different. I'll need your help with these as they are photographs from one of Tim's sojourns in Ireland and will eventually be gifted to the RPSI which will respect Tim's wish. These are potentially of especial interest as they are among the earliest of Tim's photos, around 1958, so we should forgive some of the more basic technical errors. I'm none too sure of classes and locations so anyone with an interest and knowledge of Irish railways please comment and correct. I will, however, use Tim's original descriptions as they probably offer us a good starting point. One or two of these photos are really good, although quite a number are significantly under exposed but will be included because of their historical interest.

This exposure shows evidence of fogging but has interest particularly in view of the coach to the right of the shot. Qs class 4-4-0 No 135, Cyclops leaving on a Dublin train at Great Victoria Street, Belfast in August 1958.. It was transferred to the UTA in 1958 and withdrawn in 1963. It was built in 1899 by Neilson Reid and rebuilt from a Q to a Qs (ie superheated) in 1922.



Two views of T2 Class 4-4-2 No 30 leaving on Great Victoria Street Station on a local train to Lisburn in August 1958 - Tim refers to the second shot as marshalling empty stock.





Class V 4-4-0 Compound No 86, Peregrine, renumbered by the UTA as 86X stored at Adelaide, Belfast, MPD in August 1958. Built 1932 by Beyer Peacock, superheated in 1948 and withdrawn in 1961.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
We discussed Bushey earlier in the thread and certainly Mickoo was involved, when is another story.
Martin

 

[Roger Pound]

Brian,
Thank you for putting up the GNR(I) pictures. I have long had a great interest in this system and the NCC, not to mention the narrow gauge. May we have the privilege of seeing any further similar items that you may have available, please.

Roger

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Martin. I'm relieved to learn that I'm not going completely bonkers.

Roger - there's quite a few more of these to come in this series, some more from 1958 and others from 1962. I'm delighted that they are of particular interest to some of our congregation. However, please check the captions for me.

And, in that respect, I attached the incorrect photo to the last caption. I've now edited to attach the correct photo. The incorrect photo with a corrected caption will appear in the next post.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

More in Ireland and for which additional detail and class confirmation will be most helpful so I can expand the descriptions.

PP 4-4-0, No 43, Lagan, stored at Adelaide MPD in 1958. this was built in 1911 by the GNR(I), superheated in 1928 and transferred to the UTA as 43x. It was withdrawn in 1960.



T2 4-4-2T No 4 stored at Adelaide MPD in 1958. This was built by Beyer Peacock in 1921, went to the UTA as 4X and was withdrawn in 1960.



A line of withdrawn locos at Adelaide MPD including an RT 0-6-4T and Class A 0-6-0. The 0-6-4T was one of the four locos comprising class RT with 4'3" driving wheels and used for dock shunting at Belfast. One was withdrawn in 1959, the remaining three lasting until 1963. Detailed examination of the photo suggests this to be No 23, built by Beyer Peacock in 1908 and was one of the three withdrawn by the UTA in 1963. The 0-6-0 immediately in front appears to be a member of Class A, a class of fifteen introduced by James Park in 1882. Several survived in to the 1950's, the last being photographed awaiting cutting up at Dundalk in 1961. The other two 0-6-0's can't be identified.



Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

Brian,

I regret I have very limited references for the GNR(I) these days - I have tended to thin out my library as the years pass by! However I am doing my best as follows.
The PP class you show is actually number 43 - this can just be made out on the cab-side, but the '4' is hidden on the buffer beam to a large degree by the coupling hook. Originally built in 1911 and subsequently rebuilt up to circa 1945 the last survivor went in 1963.
You are quite right about the 0-6-4T - one of the four locos comprising class RT with 4'3" driving wheels and used for dock shunting at Belfast. One was withdrawn in 1959, the remaining three lasting until 1963. The 0-6-0 immediately in front appears to be a member of Class A, a class of fifteen introduced by James Park in 1882. Several survived in to the 1950's, the last being photographed awaiting cutting up at Dundalk in 1961. I am not able to identify the other two 0-6-0's I'm afraid and am open to correction on my remarks above if needs be.

Roger.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Roger. That's actually a huge help in filling out the sparce details I have. I've added appropriately to the background info and changed the photo descriptions on here to improve them. In the meantime more from Ulster. I'm really pleased to note that I don't appear to have lost any viewers of this thread with this sojourn in the Emerald Isle. I've done a little bit of research on these so hope my findings are correct.

Adelaide MPD in 1958. I believe it might be the unique NLQG class No 165 Newbliss built by Nasmyth Wilson in 1911 although rebuilt as an LQG in 1929. The number 65 can be easily identified on the cab side. It was transferred to the UTA as 165x and was withdrawn in 1961. Additional information is that the NQG and LNQG had just four of their number rebuilt and absorbed in to class LQG. These were a very popular loco, being the most powerful 0-6-0 on the system. The class remained intact in 1958 and withdrawal was not completed until 1964.



This is an unidentified class W 2-6-0 on a local to Belfast at Adelaide Station in 1958 - or is it? It appears to be pushing the stock back under the bridge.



Class U 4-4-0 GNR(I) No 196 Lough Gill shunting Adelaide MPD in 1958. Built in 1915 to the design of George T Glover it was renumbered No 64 in 1958 and withdrawn in 1961.





Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

Judging by the slight angle on the coupling rods, it looks like there's a wheel quartering issue with that 0-6-0. Should have used a GW wheelpress.

 

[Roger Pound]

Brian,

The LNQG is very interesting. The NQG and LNQG had just four of their number rebuilt and absorbed in to class LQG. These were a very popular loco, being the most powerful 0-6-0 on the system. The class remained intact in 1958 and withdrawal was not completed until 1964.

The U class would seem to be carrying the number 67 to me. As no. 196 it was the first of the class of five, built 1915 by Beyer Peacock. A further five came from the same builder in 1946. They seem to have survived well in to the 1960's but I have no withdrawal date for the pictured loco.

Thank you for more pictures of GNR(I) and NCC.

Roger