Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thanks again Roger for your expanded info. Retained for posterity. As far as the U class is concerned I worked backwards from the name which Tim provided in his notes. By no means a 100% guarantee that it's correct but I reckon it's more than likely, or he'd have had to make it up. My reference (may have been Wikipedia) advised that 196 became 64 which is why that was stated - however it may, of course, be incorrect. In future, where I've tried t build some more details for these photos I'll quote my source so we can go back and check.

Delighted to provide more GNR(I) and NCC photos, and there's more to come.

Dave. I'd not noticed that until I read your missive. Well observed.

Today there are, for some reason, multiple shots of the same subject - three times! All have slightly different exposures, but sadly not enough to create any single acceptable image. Descriptions are Tim's, as further investigation and comment is rather difficult without numbers of the locos involved. You will note the tablet admittedly indistinct apparatus on the lower cab side of each of the locos.

Four almost identical shots of an unidentified U2 4-4-0 on shed at Belfast York Road MPD in 1958. Tim describes this as "stored" but it's clearly not as there are tell tail wisps of steam from the injector.









Next two near identical photos of an unidentified W Class 2-6-0 on shed at Belfast York Road MPD in 1958.





Finally two shots of a V1 class 0-6-0, possibly No 15, stored on shed at Belfast York Road MPD in 1958 or August 1960. This was rebuilt from a V to a V1 in 1953. It was built in 1923 by the LMS for the NCC as No 73 and renumbered in the same year. Roger suggested the number as 16 but this was an NCC 0-4-0ST or a GNR(I) Class UG. Class V1 No 15 was, however, scrapped in 1961 so calls in to question the attributed date of 1962 for this photo.





Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

Brian,

Sorry to be a pest, but am I right in thinking that Tim did not record the names of the U2 and W locos? The U2 class mirrored the Johnson 4-4-0's of the Midland (not surprising when considering the origins of the NCC) in that they were successfully upgraded by rebuilds over their lives. They were known as 'The Scotch Engines' as the first batch were built by the North British Locomotive Company.
I believe that the 0-6-0 is a class V1, number 16, just discernible. I have a colour photograph of this loco in fully lined UTA black livery in one of my references. It looks very smart and possibly ex-works at York Road loco sidings. This copyright photograph is dated 19th October 1957 and if so, may well support your view that the loco was still in service when Tim photographed it.

Roger

 

[oldravendale]

In absolutely no way are you being a "pest" in commenting here. The info you're providing is more than helpful. As for the names on the U2 and W locos, no such luck. The U2 has a distinct family resemblance to the Johnson 4-4-0s though.

Well done on finding a number on the V1. The description is altered accordingly.

Three more here with the titles as accurate as I can make them and the exposure level appears to have improved although still rather "under". The next few could have been photographed in 1958 or 1962. The negative sleeves are confusing but I've dated them as 1962 in the absence of any conclusive evidence to the contrary.

Class W 2-6-0 No 98 King Edward VIII at Belfast York Road MPD awaiting works in 1962. It was a Northern Counties Committee/LMS loco built in 1937 at Derby Works. It then went to the UTA in 1948 and was withdrawn in 1964. Details from the Smugmug photo collection and confirmed in the Irish Steam Loco Register. Note here the rather easier seen tablet collection apparatus on the lower side of the cab.



Line of withdrawn locos at Adelaide MPD possibly in 1962 but more likely 1960. Nearest is either No 63 or 69 class T2 4-4-2T. No 63 was built in 1929 and 69 by Nasmyth Wilson in 1924. 63 was withdrawn in 1959 and 69 in 1958. No 69 was GNR(I) No 148 but renumbered in 1948, when it went to the UTA. No 63 went to the CIE in 1958 so, on balance, this is almost certainly No 69. Reference again the Smugmug photo collection confirmed in the Irish Steam Loco Register.



This appears in Tim's notes as an unidentified QLG 0-6-0 on shed at Adelaide MPD in 1962 but it can be identified as No 79 which was a class UG built 1937 in Dundalk. In 1958 it went to the UTA, was renumbered as No 46 and was withdrawn in 1963. It seems that the renumbering did not occur immediately which is the reason I consider a date of 1960 or (less likely) 1962 for this photo as possible. Roger's additional info is that the 0-6-0 in the last picture is definitely a UG. Roger's references have a photograph of UG No. 45 (GNR No 78) active on 29 September 1962, which does at least confirm the identity of Tim's photograph as being a UG, not QLG. The UG's were rated as good mixed traffic engines and were widely used on light passenger work on the CIE.



Brian

 

[Overseer]

Good to see the NCC and GNR photos. If it is the smugmug collection I think it is I suggest not relying on the information as there are some howlers and the owner doesn’t want to be told there are mistakes.

 

[Roger Pound]

Great to see a W - even without the tender. One can just wonder if it was fitted with the 'Fowler' or 'Stanier' appearance type...!?! A question to which we shall never know the answer.
The T2 class were the most numerous class on the GNR comprising twenty locomotives built in batches; five (GNR Nos 1 - 5) in 1920 by Beyer Peacock, ten, with scattered numbers by Naysmith Wilson in 1924 and five (Nos 62 -66) by Beyer Peacock in 1930. Fifteen were withdrawn in 1959-60, two more in 1961. Nos 3, 5 and 143 were the final survivors.
The 0-6-0 in the last picture is definitely a UG. My references have a photograph of UG No. 45 (GNR No 78) active on 29 September 1962, which does at least confirm the identity of Tim's photograph as being a UG, not QLG. The UG's were rated as good mixed traffic engines and were widely used on light passenger work on the CIE.

Thank you once again,

Roger.

 

[oldravendale]

Overseer - I share your scepticism about some of the details on Smugmug so when it's my source I'll ensure it is referenced as such. No-one then needs to be backward in correcting any of the data.

Roger - helpful additional info again. Please keep it coming. And some more Ws specially for you.

First are two shots of W 2-6-0s in 1960 or 1962. The first is definitely No 97 Earl of Ulster and the second is probably the same loco although the number is more difficult to determine with certainty. In any event both are on shed at Adelaide MPD Belfast. The builder was the NCC in 1935 and it was withdrawn by the UTA in1965.





Tim's advised this as an unidentified UG 0-6-0 leaving Adelaide Station tender first in 1962.



Fourth and fifth are of the same loco. It's an ex NCC Y class or Jinty as we know it here for sure, one of two regauged and reboilered for the NCC in 1944. I read the number as 18 and Tim records it as LMS 7456 which is the loco which became NCC 18. It was transferred to the UTC in which livery it appears here and the transfer happened in 1949. However, my main reference here is Wikipedia which advises that No 18 was withdrawn in 1956, previous to Tim's first photos in Northern Ireland whereas No 19 lasted until 1963. We now have confirmation that this actually No 19, LMS No 7553. My reference shows this to have been built in 1944 but we know it was originally introduced in 1928. 1944 was when it was rebuilt to 5ft 3in gauge by the LMS and shipped to the NCC.





A general View of Adelaide shed area looking east in 1962 with Y class No 19 and W class No 97 present.



Brian

 

[Crimson Rambler]

William Scott Locomotives of the LMS NCC has No 18 (ex 7456) withdrawn in 1956 due to a suspect crankpin (crank axle perhaps?)after running 219,441 miles for the NCC and 612,266 in total while No 19 (ex-7553) went in 1963 with mileages of 291,971 and 667,521 respectively.

Incidentally he advised a large 'X' painted on a loco meant it was to be withdrawn when the next major fault occurred.

Crimson Rambler

 

[Overseer]

Finally two shots of an unidentified V1 class 0-6-0, possibly No 16, stored on shed at Belfast York Road MPD in 1958. Once again, though, judging by confirmed information that No 16 was still operating in 1957 this loco may not actually be stored and this now seems unlikely.

The V1 is number 15. According to William Scott it received the LMS G6s boiler in December 1953, so becoming a V1. It was scrapped in December 1961 so is likely to have been in service at the time of the photograph but maybe not in steam. NCC number 16 was an 0-4-0 saddle tank built in 1914 so not similar at all. The other two V/V1 locos were 13 and 14, the NCC number plate numerals for 3 and 4 were quite differently shaped to what can be seen in the photos while the 5 matches with a raked back vertical. There is a nice colour rear 3/4 photo of 15 in Irish Railways in Colour - A Second Glance.

The Jinty is definitely number 19. Number 18 was withdrawn in 1956 and the figure 8 was distinctly waisted compared with the 9 in the photo. Scott has photos of 18 being delivered in 1944 which show the reversed wheels to add 6 1/2 inches to the gauge, the spokes dish outwards instead of inwards. This may have lead to the bearing troubles they experienced when run at speed by the NCC so they were restricted to shunting.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Crimson Rambler and Overseer for these so useful comments. I'll be adjusting the record accordingly. I obviously misread the number on the Jinty, and Tim must have done so too, I guess, in relating it to No 18's LMS number. However it happened we got there in the end. Thanks also for the further and better info re the V1. I've maintained the date as 1962 for that photo at the moment but wonder whether it should actually be in the 1958 sequence which would make the other photos also 1958. I'll consider that possibility when we have all this sequence in front of us.

In the same series so probably taken at the same time as the previous shots in 1962 at Adelaide MPD. There are no other details but I note that this loco is a 4-4-0, not named and the raised footplate over the driving wheels rules out a U Class. On further consideration possibly a former NCC U2.



Two photos at Adelaide MPD, Belfast in 1960 or 1962. It's clearly a named 4-4-0 and I read the number as 64 Lough Gill which was a U Class. No 64 was withdrawn in 1961 and this loco is clearly still working. Under the auspices of the GNR(I) it was no 196 but renumbered on transfer to the UTA. It was built by Beyer Peacock in 1915.

We have to forgive Tim some of the errors here as he probably never had these negs printed - in fact some of them are pretty well unprintable by conventional means.





Possibly from 1960 and a local train approaching Adelaide Station, Belfast. An NCC loco along with others of the class it was transferred to the UTA. Thanks to Overseer we can see that this is W class No 95, The Braid which ran until November 1960 and was scrapped in August 1964.

Edit. Comments from Overseer. The W is 95, The Braid. 96 didn't run after May 1955 and was scrapped in December 1961. 95 ran until November 1960 and scrapped August 1964. Therefore the photo couldn't have been taken in 1962 but 1958 is probable. The less common forms of the numerals used by the NCC are causing some identification problems.





Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

Thanks for the W's.

The 'close-up' 4-4-0 has every appearance of being a former NCC U2, but I would think it was un-named as they normally carried the nameplate on the leading splasher, whereas the one in the photo appears not to be so adorned.

The mis-identified 4-4-0 does have every appearance of being an ex GNR U class. The number, if 64, seems to be given some confirmation by the small nameplate, other names in the 'Lough ' series being a letter or more longer - except for 'Lough Derg' which went to the CIE as no.199N and was withdrawn in 1963. . It would appear to imply that the loco was photographed in 1961 at the latest - it's year of withdrawal as you say. Of course, the numbers being relatively indistinct and difficult to reconcile with the remaining options in the class do leave a problem.

Roger

 

[Overseer]

This is also possibly 1962 and an unknown W 2-6-0. I read the number on the buffer beam as 96 Silver Jubilee. It was on a local train approaching Adelaide Station, Belfast. An NCC loco along with others of the class it was transferred to the UTA. The last of the class was withdrawn in 1965.

The W is 95, The Braid. 96 didn't run after May 1955 and was scrapped in December 1961. 95 ran until November 1960 and scrapped August 1964. Therefore the photo couldn't have been taken in 1962 but 1958 is probable. The less common forms of the numerals used by the NCC are causing some identification problems.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Roger and Overseer. Very useful - in fact essential - additions to the cannon of info and the correction of errors. Those loco numbers are a real problem for me, Overseer, when I'm trying to build up a bit more detail by using these alone as the reference and starting point. I've made corrections to the entries on WT and other detail will be added to the data.

I've also tried to work on the next set of photos but they are proving rather difficult as they start with "Ireland, don't know where, don't know when" (you could write a song about that ). Magically, in my stocking will appear a volume about Irish railways.

(A seven year old told me very recently that Father Christmas doesn't exist. Remarkable! Where do they get these ideas from? They'll be telling me next that fairies are a figment of my imagination! You're alright as long as you have your 'elf.)

I'll return with this thread after Christmas. In the meantime have a great time and a happy and healthy New Year.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

So.... As I'd been an exceptionally good boy Father Christmas delivered "Irish Steam Loco Register" as requested. Having checked a few random details it looks as though it can give chapter and verse. It's a much better starting point than nothing. It is, however, exceptionally difficult to navigate and I've yet to get to the bottom of some of the abbreviations.

No 48 which is in the list of renumbered locos when transferred to the UTA. It was renumbered from GNR(I) No 146 which was a UG class which was built in 1948 by Beyer Peacock and withdrawn by Northern Ireland Railways in 1968. In the photo it's leaving Great Victoria Street Station, Belfast, probably in August 1960.



Probably on 10th August 1960. It's GNR(I) T Class 4-4-2T No 187 also built by Beyer Peacock but in 1913. It was rebuilt in 1926 to a T1. This one transferred to the UTA retaining its number where it was withdrawn in 1964. It's leaving Great Victoria Street Station, Belfast. (All Irish Steam Loco Register).



Potentially 10th August 1960 and described as an unknown SG 0-6-0 and Y 0-6-0T at Adelaide MPD, Belfast. However the 0-6-0 can be identified as No 39 still carrying GNR on the tender and was built in 1911 by Nasmyth Wilson as an NQG class named Beragh, then rebuilt to an NGGs in 1931 and then an LGGs in 1956. (The lower case "s" indicates superheated). It transferred to the UTA and was withdrawn in 1960. The "Y" is actually an RT 0-6-4T No 23 built in 1908 by Beyer Peacock which also went to and was withdrawn by the UTA in 1963. Photographed at Adelaide MPD, Belfast. (All Irish Steam Loco Register)



Once one starts digging for information about these locos their stories become most interesting. However, once again I am not relying on a primary source but deferring to one book and primary data - if it exists - may not agree. If anyone can advise better info than that attached please let me know.

Finally a very Happy New Year to all on WT.

Brian

 

[chigley]

It doesn't matter about the year Brian, cos they are all timeless


Ken

 

[Roger Pound]

Brian,

Firstly, a very Happy New Year to you and my thanks for the pleasure your thread has given me over the past year. I hate to contest your new register, but I do feel that the first picture is of an SG2 - the boiler appears too small in diameter and the chimney too long for an SG3. It may be carrying a CIE re-numbering as I cannot reconcile the number on it with the GNRI numbers for the SG2's. These were 180-184, built by Beyer Peacock in 1915 and 15-19 built by Naysmith Wilson in 1924. The class was withdrawn piecemeal between 1961 and 1965 so the 1960 date you have is viable.

A note of interest about the T class 4-4-2T no. 187. This loco was the last survivor of the class, the remainder of which including the T1's, had been withdrawn in 1959-1960. No. 187 remained active at Belfast as a shunter until withdrawal in 1964 so your suggested date is well within reason and the locomotive could have been engaged in such duties when Brian captured it on film.

The 0-6-0 no.39 in the last picture as an NQG would have been one of certain sub-classes absorbed into the LQG class. The class was intact until 1958 when withdrawals started with the final example going in 1964.
The 0-6-4T no 24 would have been withdrawn in 1963. This class spent their whole lives shunting in Belfast Docks.

Hope this is of further interest.

Roger.

 

[oldravendale]

Brian,

Firstly, a very Happy New Year to you and my thanks for the pleasure your thread has given me over the past year. I hate to contest your new register, but I do feel that the first picture is of an SG2 - the boiler appears too small in diameter and the chimney too long for an SG3. It may be carrying a CIE re-numbering as I cannot reconcile the number on it with the GNRI numbers for the SG2's. These were 180-184, built by Beyer Peacock in 1915 and 15-19 built by Naysmith Wilson in 1924. The class was withdrawn piecemeal between 1961 and 1965 so the 1960 date you have is viable.

A note of interest about the T class 4-4-2T no. 187. This loco was the last survivor of the class, the remainder of which including the T1's, had been withdrawn in 1959-1960. No. 187 remained active at Belfast as a shunter until withdrawal in 1964 so your suggested date is well within reason and the locomotive could have been engaged in such duties when Brian captured it on film.

The 0-6-0 no.39 in the last picture as an NQG would have been one of certain sub-classes absorbed into the LQG class. The class was intact until 1958 when withdrawals started with the final example going in 1964.
The 0-6-4T no 24 would have been withdrawn in 1963. This class spent their whole lives shunting in Belfast Docks.

Hope this is of further interest.

Roger.

Hello Roger.

As ever it's a great pleasure and privilege to be dealing with these photos. I hope the thread will continue to give you and others more pleasure over the coming year and, I hope, beyond.

Thanks indeed for questioning the description of the first photo. Your comments have inspired more digging in this rather confusing but interesting book and I've now located No 48 in the list of locos transferred to the UTA. It was renumbered from GNR(I) No 146 which was a UG class. This answers the question of the transfer which I read as to CIE, but that was for the SG2 No 48 which became CIE 48N and which this, I now see, it patently isn't. So, would you agree that this could indeed be a UG rather than an SG2? If so it was built in 1948 by Beyer Peacock and withdrawn by the UTA at an undetermined date. I'll value your views on this and I can then make an edit and change the description which accompanies the photo.

So, I've now found another little fount of knowledge in my new book which is the renumbering which took place under the auspices of the UTA.

Thanks for the extra stuff about the T class.

As far as the NQG in the last photo is concerned the Irish Steam Loco Register definitely refers to two rebuilds of this loco but I guess the class details may be an issue of terminology - I really don't know. As for the RT class, I believe Tim may have a photo of one actually in Belfast Docks and that will be to come.

Thanks again, Roger, and a Happy New Year to you as well.

Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

Brian,

I would not dispute your findings - a UG it is. I think I must have got tunnel vision with the suggestion of the UG family and not widened my investigation sufficiently. Have sentenced myself to an hour on the naughty step (). The visual similarity between the SG2 and the UG is quite close - and the steam does obscure the cab side and the square McIntosh side sheet openings which would have helped both of us to confirm the class as UG with ease.

The puzzles that these Irish subjects throw up are a delight in their own right and looking out what facts one can find on provides added pleasure.

Regards,
Roger.

 

[oldravendale]

I couldn't agree more, Roger, about the amount of interest I am finding in these Irish locos and it's gratifying that you are as well. Thank you for confirming the class of that 0-6-0, and I'll now change the description I initially applied. And, joy of joys, I've now located several lists of withdrawal dates in the Register. Although it may appear so I'm not actually hung up about withdrawal dates except that they help to confirm the dates of photos, at least in some cases. I'll now go back through the photos and apply the withdrawal dates of those I can locate. I'll bet they are all in the volume somewhere, I've just not found them all yet. It's an excellent volume for information but really badly needs an index.

So we now know that the UG numbered 48 under the UTA actually survived to be transferred once again, this time to Northern Ireland Railways in 1968 where it was withdrawn the same year. The 4-4-2T became 187x under the UTA and was withdrawn by them in 1964 as you described and 0-6-0 No 39 was withdrawn by the UTA as an LQGs - as correctly described by you - in 1960. I called it an LGG due to complete brain fade! 0-6-4T No 23 was withdrawn in 1963, again by the UTA and again as described by you. I reckon the date of withdrawal of the LQG now firmly puts that series of photos in to 1960 rather than 1962.

There's quite a bit of retrospective work to be done on the photos I've already published but I reckon I've been so lucky that you've been around to check my work so far. I'm intending to list the changes/corrections I may make to the descriptions in the light of better knowledge although that'll have to wait for a bit as I have the joy of filling in my tax return tomorrow - oh, what a delight that'll be.

Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

I'm intending to list the changes/corrections I may make to the descriptions in the light of better knowledge although that'll have to wait for a bit as I have the joy of filling in my tax return tomorrow - oh, what a delight that'll be.

Brian

Jolly good luck with that one,Brian- something I am spared now. Your new reference seems to be a mine of very useful information and one does regret selling off many of my books in times long past. Notwithstanding, I look forward to further revelations from the photo collection in due time

Roger

 

[Martin Shaw]

The recent deluge of Irish subjects has caused a resurgence in my interest in the railways of Eire and Ulster and prompted acquisition of sources of information. I already had the books on the GSR and GS&WR,


and I was able to purchase copies of these, the GNRI book is reasonable condition, the NCC one rather better. I think I got a couple of bargains.



I think that may cover the locomotives of the Emerald Isle, any other volumes I should consider?

Regards
Martin