Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Three more at Old Oak.

A healthy looking Castle, 7035 Ogmore Castle on the Cheltenham Spa Express at Old Oak Common on 27th March 1962. It was a Gloucester Horton Road engine at the time but the last shed was Old Oak in 1963 where it was withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It went to Swindon Works for disposal which was complete by August 1965. (BR Database).



King 6000 King George V on an up Birmingham train at Old Oak Common on 27th March 1962, bell clearly in place on the buffer beam. It had been a resident of Old Oak Common since 1952 and was withdrawn for preservation in early December 1962. (SLS).



Hall 5979 Cruckton Hall on an Oxford semi fast at Old Oak Common on 27th March 1962. It was a Reading engine which ended up at Worcester according to SLS, WHTS and Rail UK although BR Database says it was at Cardiff East Dock but all agree it was withdrawn in November 1964. Rail UK and WHTS report it then went to R S Hayes at Bridgend and was broken up by April 1965 - WHTS report it as having been observed there at the end of February 1965. WHTS record it as being stored at Worcester in November 1964.



Brian

 

[David B]

I’m a bit doubtful about the identification of 5043 at Old Oak with 6998. 5043 had the final style of double chimney and 4 row superheater, fitted in 1958. This Castle has the cover on the LH side of the upper smokebox that you see on locos with earlier superheater variants - the cover isn’t there on Tim’s other photos of 5043 at Paddington and Barry. Likewise, although it’s hard to tell from this angle, the chimney doesn’t look to me like the double chimney carried by The Earl, which is noticeably narrower at the base and tapers outwards towards the copper cap. Why am I a bit geeky about this loco? Because I’ve had some outstanding trips behind it in preservation, including blistering climbs of Whiteball, Dainton and Rattery, plus the remarkable non-stop up Bristolian of 2010 when it wheeled us into Paddington 45 minutes ahead of time. A fabulous machine.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you David. I can see why you question the identity of the loco and there's every reason to do so. Your evidence is pretty difficult to refute, particularly as some of that evidence is another of Tim's own photos (those of Barry are mine but they are, I agree, additional evidence).

So.... I went back to Tim's original notes and I think I may have misread his entry. I suspect it may be 5045, Earl of Dudley. (Tim's writing is quite often like a spider's crawled across the page so sometimes needs interpretation.) However, would 5045 be a proper and accurate candidate? I'm sufficiently convinced that the error is mine to change the details if 5045 fits the bill.

Overall a great bit of work there. Hopefully more pics for those interested on Monday.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

While we wait for a reply from David so I can put the 5043/5045 discussion to bed....

King Class 6014 King Henry VII on a down Birmingham train at Old Oak Common on 27th March 1962. It lived at Stafford Road and was withdrawn from there in the September of the year the photo was taken. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cox & Danks at Oldbury in March 1963. (BR Database).



Castle 7009 Athelney Castle on the down Cathedrals Express at Old Oak Common on 27th March 1962. At the time of the photo it was a Gloucester Horton Road engine but moved to Old Oak in December 1962. It didn't last too long there, though, as it was withdrawn in early April 1963. (SLS). It went to Coopers Metals, Sharpness, where it was scrapped in August 1965. (BR Database).



Hall Class 4975 Umberslade Hall on the down 4.55 Gloucester train at Old Oak Common on 27th March 1962. It was a Reading engine at the time moving to Oxford in June 1963 where it was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It ended up at Cashmore's in Newport where it met its end during July 1964.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

We return to another of Tim's favourite locations.

Stanier 2-6-4T 42478 on an up Watford and Bletchley train at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962. It was a Willesden engine in 1962 and moved around a lot thereafter, ending up at Bangor in February 1965 from where it was immediately withdrawn. (BR Database). Or, if you prefer, Aston in January 1965 where it was withdrawn in February. (SLS). Rail UK agrees that the final shed was Bangor, withdrawal in February and that the loco then went to Motherwell Machinery & Scrap at Wishaw and a scrap date at the end of June 1965. WHTS agrees with the withdrawal date but throws in a curved ball by stating that it was seen at Eastfield, Glasgow, in store between April and August. The location of Eastfield may well be because it was on its way to Motherwell Machinery (which WHTS also gives as the yard responsible for the loco's demolition) and not the final operating shed and I'm wondering if the observations at Eastfield between July and August are some of the corrupted info.



An unrecorded 8F on an up freight at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962.



Black 5 44762 (one of the class with Timken roller berings) taking water on a down fitted freight at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962. Note the cattle wagons right behind the loco. 44762 was a Crewe North engine and had been since 1948 but left in 1965 and kicked around a few more LMS sheds before being withdrawn from Croes Newydd in November 1966. (SLS). It was disposed of at Drapers in Hulll by the end of April 1967. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[Ressaldar]

A pity that 44762 was not still wearing its MT trails livery colours of Malachite with sunshine lining - even so, I have not seen many photos of the loco in any livery, one of the more bashful engines. Thanks for posting.

kind regards

Mike

 

[Osgood]

....

An unrecorded 8F on an up freight at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962.

View attachment 175235


Brian

Unusual tender for an 8F to be towing. ?

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Stanier 2-6-4T 42478 on a down Watford and Bletchley train at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962. It was a Willesden engine in 1962 and moved around a lot thereafter, ending up at Bangor in February 1965 from where it was immediately withdrawn.

Is it not on a up train as the electric lines are on the far (i.e. western) side of the viewer? Of the five non-electrified tracks the centre one is a siding.

 

[Roger Pound]

Unusual tender for an 8F to be towing. ?

Dave,

Not as uncommon as you might think. A number of the class appeared with this type of tender in later years. I had anecdotal evidence that the original Stanier tenders were exchanged with these Fowler type tenders from Jubilee 4-6-0's. Perhaps someone can confirm, but I do know that several Jubilees had the Fowler types from my own observations, albeit in ancient history now.

Roger.

 

[Arun Sharma]

Dave,

Not as uncommon as you might think. A number of the class appeared with this type of tender in later years. I had anecdotal evidence that the original Stanier tenders were exchanged with these Fowler type tenders from Jubilee 4-6-0's. Perhaps someone can confirm, but I do know that several Jubilees had the Fowler types from my own observations, albeit in ancient history now.

Roger.

Agreed - Willesden had a couple of Jubilees and 8Fs with Fowler tenders in 1964.

 

[mickoo]

What they said, Fowler tenders 8F's were quite common on 8F's.

Roger, I also believe some Jubilees also had them for a while, not sure when they swapped them out, I have an inkling some may have kept them very late into BR days, possibly to the end.

 

[michael mott]

All those pictures of the castles halls and kings passing old oak on the 27th March 1962 I would love to think it was one of the days I was sitting at the bridge on Twyford Avenue in Acton and saw the same locos passing by on the far side lines. That would be serendipitous indeed.
A nice fantasy for sure., to far back in time for me to know though.
These pictures bring back so many fond memories.

Michael

 

[oldravendale]

Mike - Thanks for your observation. It looks as though Larry has removed his rather helpful translation!

Tony, Roger, Arun and Mick. We have photos on this thread of 8Fs and Jubilees with the Fowler tender (or if we haven't yet we will have in the future!), so case rather proven.

Yorkie Dave. Quite right, and down to my infamous lack of observation and copying Tim's notes. Now corrected and thank you.

Michael. You and me both. I didn't know Tim when he took most of these photos. at least anything he photographed pre-1969. If I had I have no doubt we'd have been travelling the country together. However there are a number of specific occasions when I know he was in exactly the same place I was. I've yet to find my ugly fizzog in any of his photos but for sure I was there and have my own dated photos to prove it.

Staying with Bushey troughs - Dave, please check my ups and downs.

Two shots of Princess class 46209 Princess Beatrice on an up Birmingham train at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962. Tim photographed this three days earlier at Euston - see post #1815. It was a Camden engine - in fact Camden was it's final shed - and was withdrawn from there only six months later. (SLS). It ended up at Crewe and was scrapped in November.





Royal Scot 46156 The South Wales Borderer on an up parcels at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962. It was a Holyhead engine which moved about a bit after that and was another of the unfortunates which ended up at Annesley on the GCR where it was withdrawn in October 1964. (SLS). It was finally at Drapers Hull where it met its end in February 1965.



Standard Class 5 73039 on an up fright at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962. It was a Willesden engine in 1962, ending up at Patricroft where it was withdrawn in September 1967. (SLS). It went to Buttigiegs at Newport where it was scrapped by the end of February 1968.



Brian

 

[Lyndhurstman]

An unrecorded 8F on an up freight at Bushey Troughs on 28th March 1962.

Once again, a nice view of (amongst other things) a humble P-numbered open wagon. Interestingly, it appears that the top three or four planks on both sides (one outside, one inside) share a similar contrast to the group beneath them. It might well be nothing.

Cheers

Jan

 

[Arun Sharma]

On the subject of 8F with Fowler tenders, I was idly flicking through a Brookland's copy [either no: 178 or 179] of the Friends of the NRM Journal this morning and there was a letter stating that at least 25 8Fs had these tenders. I got the impression that they tended to be those numbered 486xx. In the absence of the relevant and particular volume of Irwell's Book of the Stanier 8F covering that number series I know little more than that. However, the NRM journal did have a photograph of an especially ugly Fowler tender which was a one-off 4000 gallon one also attached to an 8F.

 

[Roger Pound]

Just a thought.

Whilst it may not be actually a 12 inch to the foot prototype, the fact that Bachmann have marketed 4mm models of Jubilee 4-6-0's with Fowler pattern tenders could be seen as confirmation that such pairings were known. l apologize if any offence is caused by my bringing models in to a wonderful thread concerned solely with the prototype but I am sure the link can be seen.

Roger

 

[Arun Sharma]

There is a photographic essay in BRILL [some ten+ years ago] of Leviathan at Willesden with a 3500g Fowler tender.
The following is from a Web query:

In "The book of Jubilees" Ed Chris Haskins. Published Irwell Press Ltd. ISBN 1-903266-27-0 there is a whole chapter on the subject of Jubilees and the seven different tenders attached at various times to the class. The book includes a table of tender changes compiled by Brassmasters. If you are serious about the accuracy of your Jubilee, you need this book.

From my reading of the table and then cross checking against the detailed loco data later in the book, it is recorded

45609 was withdrawn in September 1960 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45679 was withdrawn in December 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon snap-headed rivets with non-beaded tanks
45696 "Arethusa" was withdrawn in July 1964 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45704 ' Leviathan' was withdraw in January 1965 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon snap-headed rivets with beaded tanks. There is a 7th April 1964 [?photograph?] of this locomotive at Willesden which clear shows the late BR crest on the tender.
45707 was withdrawn in December 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45711 was withdrawn in December 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45713 was withdrawn in October 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45714 was withdrawn in July 1963 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45715 was withdrawn in December 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45716 was withdrawn in September 1964 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon snap-headed rivets with non-beaded tanks
45718 was withdrawn in October 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45720 was withdrawn in December 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45728 was withdrawn in October 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled

 

[mickoo]

There is a photographic essay in BRILL [some ten+ years ago] of Leviathan at Willesden with a 3500g Fowler tender.
The following is from a Web query:

In "The book of Jubilees" Ed Chris Haskins. Published Irwell Press Ltd. ISBN 1-903266-27-0 there is a whole chapter on the subject of Jubilees and the seven different tenders attached at various times to the class. The book includes a table of tender changes compiled by Brassmasters. If you are serious about the accuracy of your Jubilee, you need this book.

From my reading of the table and then cross checking against the detailed loco data later in the book, it is recorded

45609 was withdrawn in September 1960 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45679 was withdrawn in December 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon snap-headed rivets with non-beaded tanks
45696 "Arethusa" was withdrawn in July 1964 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45704 ' Leviathan' was withdraw in January 1965 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon snap-headed rivets with beaded tanks. There is a 7th April 1964 [?photograph?] of this locomotive at Willesden which clear shows the late BR crest on the tender.
45707 was withdrawn in December 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45711 was withdrawn in December 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45713 was withdrawn in October 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45714 was withdrawn in July 1963 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45715 was withdrawn in December 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45716 was withdrawn in September 1964 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon snap-headed rivets with non-beaded tanks
45718 was withdrawn in October 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45720 was withdrawn in December 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled
45728 was withdrawn in October 1962 while paired with a Fowler 3500 gallon flush rivets panelled

I've found the two Jubilee books 'LMS Jubilees - Essery & Toms' and 'The Jubilee 4-6-0's - Townsin - RCTS' to also be very favorable material, probably more so than the 'Book of' if I'm honest and I rate the 'Book of' series highly in most cases, some lack detailed engineering information which is my anorak to be fair.

 

[oldravendale]

Here's three of Tim's photos with Fowler tenders, the first two are of Jubilees and the third is an 8F to the left of the image.







Brian

 

[LarryG]

The 57xx Jubilees entered traffic with Fowler tenders for working the Standedge route where water troughs were plentiful. Earlier Jub's got Fowler Tenders off Royal Scots that were given new Stanier Tenders. There must have been some revised thinking when the 8F's lost their Stanier Tenders.

It wasn't just a matter to exchanging Tenders. A lot of modification had to be made, some not always visible.

Source: 'Stanier 4-6-0's of the LMS'.