Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I shall enquire further…

I would say that if the bars are counterbalanced, and if free, are high enough to be hit by the flange, then they’re going to get hit tens or hundreds of times per day. They clearly couldn’t have a mechanical linkage, as the inertia forces would make nonsense in short order of the joints, so I‘d guess that they’d have to be electrically detected in some way.
I agree, all appear to have a small square junction box fitted close to them in the middle of the rails.

Looking back at the Kings X images I think all the points that might have conflicting movements and may be protected by the treadles are in fact electrically driven and not mechanical points.
 

Mike W

Western Thunderer
... Much more interesting is the LNWR 2 plank drop side medium goods in the headshunt! No idea what diagram this would have been, but it’s a relatively surprising survivor.

Adam
I am so glad you said that. I was thinking the same but it wasn't quite clear enough for me to be certain! It probably an 18ft LNWR D62a ex-ballast wagon.

Mike
 

michael mott

Western Thunderer
Gentlemen wow! I had no idea how much thinking my question would generate. Thanks for the education. So the short answer is related to safety to prevent collisions or to inform the signalmen.
Michael
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
I am so glad you said that. I was thinking the same but it wasn't quite clear enough for me to be certain! It probably an 18ft LNWR D62a ex-ballast wagon.

Mike

Ah! I should have known you'd know - the buffers are sufficiently clearly LNWR, I think which is what I was really going on, and a departmental would make sense (some of the archaic things that hung around on the Southern beggar belief), but the LNWR is not a railway I know a whole lot about. Thanks!

Adam
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Right, I'll put my former professional hat on. The bars on the inside of rails at both Kings X and Euston are depression bars which come in two fundamental forms, mechanical and electrical.

Mechanical depression bars date I suspect from the era of the Regulation of the Railways Act 1879 which mandated interlocking. They were often used as fouling bars at the entrance to loops to ensure the tail of a train was clear of the fouling point allowing the points to be reversed and the movement in the opposing direction to depart. The GWR seemed to be particularly fond of them, I am not going to try a list of railways who used them. Whilst they obviously worked they are somewhat maintenance labour intensive and the various mechanical linkages and locking interactions meant that they fell out of use as soon as reliable electrical supplies were available. The FPL bar is similar in that it can't be operated if a train is standing on it, but is really provided for a subtly different purpose. It is to hold the route such that even if the signalman returns the signal to danger rapidly the position of the train prevents the signalman from unbolting and reversing the points under the train. It only occurs at facing points, hence it's name, and stems from the Victorian horror of facing points much disliked by again the GW and the Midland, amongst others no doubt. The risk at trailing points was always thought and probably rightly so less severe, although damage to equipment is never inexpensive. I think I'm right in saying that there are no FPL bars left on Network Rail they all having been replaced by track circuits, but they still exist on heritage railways.

Electrical fouling bars (EFBs) are essentially the same thing, the mechanical bit being limted to a short drive to a circuit controller, a switch in a cast iron box about 6" by 4", usually in the 4 ft which can be used to detect the absence of vehicles. It is important to note the distinction, EFBs and track circuits do not detect trains but the absence of them. It is apparently only the inverse of logic but is critical in safety critical circuits. The pics at Euston show that they can be quite long, in essence made up of as many standard units as necessary and electrically linked. Since they are mechanically sort of balanced and only used in low speed applications they're pretty robust and I don't believe they traditionally had damping mechanisms, if so probably just a big spring.

The engine release crossovers at Euston were electrically released by the signalman, the fouling bars play no part, and that is what the point rodding is. The bars detected standing vehicels which impacted on the displayed signal given to a driver of an incoming train. Modern day operation would be a single yellow for an unoccupied platform and a subsidiary two white lights for an partially occupied road.

The signalling installation at Kings X was by SGE and used electric point motors with separate detection and mechanical FPLs. Looking at the pic of the DMU the large box to the right of the slip is the motor and from it a rod is coming towards the viewer to a crank, it then goes right under the slip and the nearest rail of the next track to another crank, the rod goes away to another crank which transfers the drive back to a crank immediately in front of the slip switches where it then drives the plunger of the FPL. From the FPL escapement drive there is rod going to another box that detects the FPL plunger is in releasing signals as required. That's 4 cranks for loss of drive to occur, detection to be lost as coach screws work in decaying timbers, iultiplied by however many times in a horribly cramped layout that was the old Kings Cross, I applied for a job with the Kings Cross DS&TE which I unfortunately didn't get which was a shame as the ER in the 70s was infinitely more interesting that the shiny new place up Euston Road where I went instead.

Regards
Martin
 
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simond

Western Thunderer
Thank you Martin,

going back to Michael’s original question

1668671762566.png

do I correctly interpret your reply to conclude that the bars are fouling bars to protect the train in the platform to the right of the camera from a potentially conflicting move across the slip to the left, or the crossover to the right?

and is the object in the 4’ at the far end of the bar likely to be a switch, or is this a mechanical installation?

thanks again
Simon
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
img1481 TM Neg Strip 47 60065 leaving Kings Cross 16 Mar 62 copyright Final.jpg

Red foul bars and the track they protect conflicting movements with, green electrical junction boxes.

The problem with Kings X is that the platforms were 'relatively' short so it was not unusual to have departing engines sat this far out into the throat before departure, in those instances engines did not arrive or couple up until close to departure time to reduce congestion and block other platforms.
 
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Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Simon

You do correctly interpret things. The bar is split by the walkway mechanically, electrically it works as one and without more looking I would have thought that the first part of the bar was enough. The bar looks as though it has two mechanical connections to switches, one at either end. The far away one is as you rightly surmise the box in the 4', there is also what looks like another in the LH 6' way one sleeper back from this end. The nearest bar also has a 6' one two sleepers from it's end towards us.

It was common practice to ideally place a circuit controller in the middle of a bar, the bar in the RH rail of the RH lead from the 3 way tandem point is an example, or if that was not possible, usually due to space constraints, a switch at either end to mitigate against breakage of the bar. I don't know of an instance of breakage that has caused an accident, but I could understand metal fatigue potentially having a significant impact.
Regards
Martin
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Mick is wholly correct here and to pick up a point of his from yesterday, it is entirely possible to track circuit the whole layout but short track circuits through dense P&C work is an installation and maintenance nightmare. This is especially so with standing steam locomotives and their emissions. Fouling bars can be a much more precise way of providing movement limitations without stopping the complete job. Nowadays of course it would be wholly track circuited because of partly risk aversion,and secondly virtually nobody knows how to do it and nobody makes these things anymore. Perhaps most relevant is that the railway of today is vastly different from the one 50 years ago, I make no comment as to whether it's better.
Regards
Martin
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I'm not so sure, but have no evidence to substantiate it, the split one I think protects separately.

The outer bar in conjunction with the inner protects from the line coming in on the right, but the short outer bar is needed for the single slip to the right.

An engine on the longer lower bar but not on the shorter outer one would just be clear of the single slip on the left.
 
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mickoo

Western Thunderer
Just had a look at the 1969 panel and as Martin notes the bars may act as one. There appears no distinction between the shorter and longer bars as far as the panel is concerned.

Image.jpg

On the panel they're called E.D.B so one assumes that translates to Electric Detection Bar? The one in Brians picture is the upper left one, the lower right would be behind Tims left shoulder on the suburban side of the station and I suspect is one bar but split on the panel to show the the signal arrangement.

Interestingly the split EDB appears to cross between two track circuits, 66A on the right in yellow and 65 (only the 5 is visible) covering the three way switch in green.
 

Crimson Rambler

Western Thunderer
In view of this detailed explanation of lifting bars for facing points and depression bars for clearance may I please request @oldravendale 's forebearance and post the photograph of what the Midland called 'clearance bars for goods lines'. The photo was taken in 1908 illustrates two examples on the same road - the crossover with the second on the points behind it. Knowing next to nothing about signalling would some kind person (@Martin Shaw perhaps) please explain why they were needed.

Clearance Bar for Trailing Points - Goods Lines Photo.jpg

Clearance Bar - Goods Line.jpg

Many thanks.


Crimson Rambler
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Crimson Rambler
In truth I'm not aware of the Midland Railways regulations on this matter however the Midland was very fond of goods lines because they were, in theory at least , cheaper to equip not needing block instruments and distant signals and allowing permissive working. In practice they found that often the passenger traffic overwhelmed the passenger lines and they needed to use the goods lines so often especially latterly a lot of goods lines were equipped to passenger standards and the method of working could be changed failry quickly as traffic demanded.

The pic of Seymour Junc is interesting on a number of levels, the distant signal that is off perplexes me unless it applies to the next box behind the photographer and the principles of slotting signals hadn't been fully developed at the time of the pic. The bars on the crossovers I don't understand at all if the lines are uni-directional because the crossivers are trailing, but there is more to this than meets the eye. They are FPL bars rather than depression bars. It is obvious that the pivot is at 90deg to the rail and they describe an arc about the pivot which a vehicle wheel would prevent. Without knowing more about the location I wouldn't want to venture further here, beyond I don't think these are actually goods lines.

Simon
I agree it is a scary video, and having had a skim through the report all I will say is that this is the sort of thing that happens when running the railways is taken out of the hands of railwaymen. Utterly disgraceful.

Regards
Martin
 
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