Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thanks Dave. I'd certainly not noted the 501 unit.

Thanks too Roger and Martin. I'm definitely going with 70041.

Kilburn High Road Station view looking north on 16th March 1962.



Rather out of sequence again here's A3 60046 Diamond Jubilee on a York Train departing Kings Cross on 16th March 1962. The loco was last seen in post #1566 but this time it has trough deflectors. It was a Grantham engine and stayed at Grantham with a spell at New England. It was withdrawn from Grantham in June 1963. Trough deflectors were fitted in October 1961. It was seen at Doncaster in August 1963. (SLS) It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in August 1963. (Rail UK).



A pair of very under exposed shots of Princess Coronation 46251 City of Nottingham on a Carlisle arrival at Euston on 16th March 1962. (And Dave, I've applied grain reduction!) It was based at Crewe North and returned there after a spell at Camden. It was withdrawn from Crewe in September 1964. It was recorded as stored at Crewe North in August. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was scrapped in December.





This is a view of Euston layout on 16th March 1962.



Finally a better exposure of 46251 reversing out of Euston on 16th March 1962.



Brian

 

[mickoo]

Britannia is definitely not 21 or one of the initial WR batch.

There are three types of smoke deflector, handrail originals with inverted L shaped handrail, of which the WR changed due to a driver sighting the handrail as the cause for a missed signal and subsequent derailment. WR handrails had six oblong cut outs fitted. It was deemed that the handrails may obstruct vision so later builds, mostly LMR had two cup type hand holds commonly seen on Princess Coronations, Royal Scots and rebuilt Patriots/Jubilees.

21 has a solid inverted hand rail, whilst it was allocated to the WR it was not one of the original batch and thus was not converted like the previous engines and retain the solid handrail for life.

The engine in the photo has cupped hand holds so 41 is a likely candidate.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Mick. A great bit of further confirmation regarding that Brit.

Royal Scot 46146 The Rifle Brigade reversing out of Euston on 16th March 1962. By now it was a Willesden loco with not long to go as it was withdrawn at the beginning of December. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works in March 1963. (Rail UK). (Personally I don't remember these movements with the whole train backing out of Euston so find these photos of particular interest. Makes sense, though, with Camden Bank to climb.)



Black 5 44844 leaving Euston on a Northampton train on 16th March 1962. It was a Willesden engine, moving around thereafter as so many Black 5s did and ending up at Birkenhead Mollington Street where it was withdrawn in November 1967, although SLS advises it was withdrawn from Speke Junction having served no time there. Rail UK says it was withdrawn from Birkenhead in November 1967 but WHTS says that it was stored at Speke Junction from December 1967 until February 1968 with a withdrawal date of February 1968 according to LCGB. Whichever detail applied to the end of its life it is agreed that it went to Cashmores, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped by the end of March 1968.



Finally A3 60065 Knight of Thistle leaving Kings Cross on 16th March 1962 - note the Deltic lurking in the steam depot. This loco has appeared previously in post #1566. 60065 was a Grantham engine and hopped around a bit before ending it's days at New England where it was withdrawn in June 1964. (Trough deflectors were not fitted until the end of November 1961). (SLS). It then went to A King & Sons at Norwich where it was scrapped in the following August. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

(Trough deflectors were not fitted until the end of November 1961)

Trough deflectors - my initial thought was what is/was a water trough deflector.....

Then it dawned - is this the Brits name for Witte Windleitbleche?

 

[oldravendale]

Probably, Dave, Most probably.

Brian

 

[David B]

Strange - that looks to be a very full load of coal in 46146’s tender. If it’s backing out of Euston after arrival, it can’t have had a long inbound run - or could it? After all it’s downhill all the way from Tring. Were the rebuilt Scots particularly economical on coal? Or had it been used by Willesden to pull in the stock for a northbound departure, which it’s now banking on the way out in the photo? Perhaps giving one of those gutless EE Type 4s a good shove up Camden bank?

 

[oldravendale]

An interesting observation, David. After all, it was a local engine so it's quite possible it was used on station pilot duties. In my experience of Euston the empty stock pilots were usually one of the flavours of 2-6-2 or 2-6-4 tanks or an 8F but there's no doubt that Willesden could use anything that happened to be available.

A totally mixed bag for today.

N2 0-6-2T 69568 on a freight at Harringay West on 16th March 1962. It was coming to the end of its time as a Kings Cross engine as it moved to New England in May and was withdrawn in September according to BR Database. SLS advises it moved in June but to Doncaster although it agrees with the withdrawal month of September although strangely it also records the loco awaiting works at Doncaster in March 1963 so it probably failed its inspection and was scrapped there and then. Rail UK advises withdrawal from New England at the end of September and scrapped at the end of March 1963. Apparently it was listed for preservation and scrapped by mistake.





Jubilee 4-6-0 45670 Howard of Effingham on a down semi fast at Kilburn High Road on 25th March 1962. It was a Rugby engine which moved around a bit and ended up at Stockport Edgeley where it was withdrawn in October 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Killamarsh in February 1965.



County 1007 County of Brecknock on an up parcels lineside at Old Oak Common on 25th March 1962. It belonged to Didcot from where it was withdrawn in October 1962. It went to King & Sons at Norwich where it was scrapped in November 1963.





Brian

 

[AJC]

Thanks again for sharing these, Brian. The wagons accompanying the N2 are, obviously, a pair of conflats. The one most clearly visible is one of the later BR builds with 8 shoe brake gear to the BR design with a (white) insulated container. Much more interesting is the LNWR 2 plank drop side medium goods in the headshunt! No idea what diagram this would have been, but it’s a relatively surprising survivor.

Adam

 

[michael mott]

forgive my ignorance but what is the purpose of the device on the inside of the rail in the centre of the picture, is it some form of brake?

Cheers Michael

 

[simond]

Thanks again for sharing these, Brian. The wagons accompanying the N2 are, obviously, a pair of conflats. The one most clearly visible is one of the later BR builds with 8 shoe brake gear to the BR design with a (white) insulated container. Much more interesting is the LNWR 2 plank drop side medium goods in the headshunt! No idea what diagram this would have been, but it’s a relatively surprising survivor.

Adam

Adam, your wagon identification radar far exceeds the capabilities of mine, but am I right in thinking is at a rather jaunty angle? Looks like the axle nearest the buffer is raised somehow?

 

[AJC]

Adam, your wagon identification radar far exceeds the capabilities of mine, but am I right in thinking is at a rather jaunty angle? Looks like the axle nearest the buffer is raised somehow?

Yes, I think it's been shoved up onto the stops somehow. I doubt it's in traffic, exactly, but not quite sure what it was up to there.

Adam

 

[simond]

View attachment 174540
forgive my ignorance but what is the purpose of the device on the inside of the rail in the centre of the picture, is it some form of brake?

Cheers Michael

Michael,

I believe it’s a Facing Point Locking bar, though it might be a fouling bar.

more info here (Wikipedia has a suprisingly poor explanation)

Facing Point Locks and Fouling Bars. Look for a post by micknich. 5 Feb.

 

[mickoo]

View attachment 174540
forgive my ignorance but what is the purpose of the device on the inside of the rail in the centre of the picture, is it some form of brake?

Cheers Michael

It's a track detection treadle, the larger fatter bar next to the rail gets depressed by the wheel flanges thus making a switch to display in the signal box that this section is occupied. Conditions are tight at Kings X and track circuits would have to be numerous and complex (short sections with cabling and insulated fish plates etc). This is also a departure road so I'd expect sanding to get away which could also affect track circuits.

The thin bar toward the centre of the track is the counter balance and you can see the tie bars with bearings in the middle. There are two here and the nearest will be for platform occupied, the further smaller one is probably to make sure the train is clear (not fouling) of the diverging road to the left.

Michael,

I believe it’s a Facing Point Locking bar, though it might be a fouling bar.

more info here (Wikipedia has a suprisingly poor explanation)

Facing Point Locks and Fouling Bars. Look for a post by micknich. 5 Feb.

I'm not so sure, they look very much like detection treadles, there's no mechanical linkage to indicate they are point locking bars, besides, the point they would supposedly protect (3 way in the distance) is not a facing point. There could of course be an electrical interlock but I'm not sure how much of Kings X was electric driven by this date, the boxes next to the points don't look like point motors, but I do concede they may be early versions of point motors.

Detection treadles are very common at the buffer stops in terminal stations, I recall Kings X, Euston, Paddington and Liverpool Street all having them back in the 80's. Having said all that I now can't find any of my photos that substantiate my ramblings

 

[simond]

the point they would supposedly protect (3 way in the distance) is not a facing point.

yeah, I wondered about that as I was typing. The only sensible FP that it could be protecting is an out-of-shot crossover by the cameraman’s right elbow, and you’re going to tell me there wasn’t one because it would duplicate the left road of the three way.

So, I agree, some kind of treadle.

thx for the correction
S

 

[Dog Star]

I agree with Mick @mickoo - the hardware on the inside of the running rail face is there to prevent the signalman setting up a route which conflicts with the position of another (standing) service. Mick refers to the device as a detection treadle... the GWR used the term "wheel fouling bar" for the same bit of kit.

 

[mickoo]

I think, in the case of the Kings X ones seen here they are point interlocks, there's quite a few if you look around. The point at lower right is in fact a single slip which joins to the track next to the platform one with the two treadles, I'd suggest the longer (unmarked) treadle at bottom centre is protecting that converging line from the right.



A closer shot of the one to the left in Brian's shot, this does have a bell crank linkage so highly likely a point interlock for the single slip to it's right.



A fairly decent shot of one on Platform 11, you can't see all of the bar but there is definitely some sort of canister, possibly hydraulic dampening, attached to the bar. A crop from a Brian Atkins copyright photo.



The same devices, though slightly mechanically different in detail at the buffer stops at Euston, as far as I knew there were no points here, but, the presence of the point rods between the tracks does seem to indicate they may have some sort of a mechanical function, so maybe projection for a release crossover hidden under the engines.



Having said that, neither engine is depressing the bar so not much of an interlock really is it! It could be inverted so that when depressed it releases the crossover, but then you only one wheel to depress it and the rest of the engine could still be on the crossover

I always thought they were for detection in tight complex track locations or terminal stations, either way happy to be educated.

 

[simond]

My understanding is that FPLs, if indeed that is what they are, are raised mid-stroke by the blue lever, which has to be in the frame in order to release the point, but if there’s a vehicle on the bar, it can’t be raised.

I don’t think they need pushing down, indeed, I think that would probably shorten their useful life rather dramatically.

 

[Roger Pound]

I have no specific knowledge of the items but I always thought, after being told many years ago by a railwayman I asked, that these items were detection treadles which alerted the occupation of a road to the signalman who may not have had an actual sighting of the particular location.. The extended and interesting information given above has certainly increased my knowledge.

Thank you gents.

Roger

 

[mickoo]

My understanding is that FPLs, if indeed that is what they are, are raised mid-stroke by the blue lever, which has to be in the frame in order to release the point, but if there’s a vehicle on the bar, it can’t be raised.

I don’t think they need pushing down, indeed, I think that would probably shorten their useful life rather dramatically.

I agree, if the bar is depressed then the interlock cannot be released. I do not think any in the above shots are FPL locks, they're some other form of point interlock, in all of the above shots these the bars are already raised, I've watched them often and they were counter balanced so this is their natural state with the treadle in the raised position.

What's confusing me now is the Euston one, I've just found my 1950's track plan and there was a release crossover on Platforms 1/2, in which case how do the mechanical interlocks work, both engines are clear of the treadles and both have trains sitting on the crossover if not the engines themselves. By previous discussion the treadle is clear so the crossover is free to be released, not a good thing if you ask me.

The only conclusion I can see is that the treadle in this instance has to be depressed by the arriving engine before the crossover is released, indicating it is clear, but do both have to be depressed to release the crossover?, something isn't adding up at Euston to my mind.

Or as I'm more inclined to think, the treadles at Euston are to indicate a light engine that has drawn forward and warns the signal man that the platform is still partially blocked, the point rodding being for another purpose, I need to find more photos.

Addendum, a little more digging about Euston and some more photos, maybe copyright, maybe not, had some of them for decades and some scanned from magazines etc. Back to the 19050's station, the treadles appear not to be interlocked with the points, the rodding goes right back toward the buffers and my first thought was a point motor under the end of the platform, however I dimly recall seeing a ground frame here (finding that photo might take some time) for local switching of that cross over, if so then there is no need for a mechanical interlock as the ground frame operator has full view of the proceedings.



This is a good shot, albeit small, as it shows the treadle depressed and the counter weight (thin bar) clearly raised ahead of the engine.



Therefore I'll assume the treadles are purely to detect light engines on the stops., I say that as the following are the ones I'm more used to, an almost identical design used in the new Euston and the ones I used to watch. there are no crossovers or points so these can only be for light engine detection.







They were even on the two DC lines platforms, I've no idea why as that was always 501 units, though ithe two lines are also wired for 25Kv so may have been used for loco hauled trains or more as likely, parcel stock at night.



The bars are split into three sections, probably to indicate one or two engines on the stops, note 83 009 has not drawn forward and would only indicate one engine on the road, bit naughty but looking at the clock which is either 16:30 or 04:30 (I'm tending toward the latter) then these are stabled engines ready for next day early services and freeing up paths from Willesden of LE movements.

 

[simond]

I shall enquire further…

I would say that if the bars are counterbalanced, and if free, are high enough to be hit by the flange, then they’re going to get hit tens or hundreds of times per day. They clearly couldn’t have a mechanical linkage, as the inertia forces would make nonsense in short order of the joints, so I‘d guess that they’d have to be electrically detected in some way.