Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
My info agrees with your except for the scrapping date. I found a pic online of 816 at Lostock Hall in August 68, and also a reference to it being scrapped in April 69 although unfortunately not where.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Graham. What would we do without hawk eyes? I've rechecked the sites I used and both carry the same (wrong) date for scrapping. Probably feeding from one another.

Martin - thanks for rescuing me again and encouraging further digging revealing It was apparently observed at Lostock Hall in November 1968, then en route to Kettering in January 1969 and in sidings at Kettering at the end of January. It was reported by the Railway Observer as intact in the scrapyard on 1st March 1969, again by the Railway Observer. I wonder if the date of scrapping should actually be June 1969 rather than 1968.

Brian

 

[AJC]

Thanks for the correction, Overseer. I've edited to give the correct class designation. Interesting because, in a bit, there'll be some real Ws!

And thanks for the memories, Larry.

Clearly 22nd November 1961 was a reet grotty day in Cricklewood. However, that never stopped Tim.

Two of 4F 0-6-0 43947 on a freight for the Southern Region. It was a Cricklewood East engine for a long time, not leaving until September 1962 when it moved to Kettering. It then moved around ending up at Trafford Park where it was withdrawn in October 1964. (BR Database). SLS records are not quite so certain suggesting that it was withdrawn on 24th October from Buxton and then moved to Trafford Park - even was allocated there - on 7th November 1964, which seems most unlikely. Rail UK agrees with the date of withdrawal and advises the last shed to have been Trafford Park whence it went to T W Ward Killamarsh for breaking up by the end of February 1965. WHTS advises it was in store at Trafford Park between October 1964 and the beginning of November 1964. It agrees with the loco going to Ward's but gives completion of scrapping as March 1965.

Another to pick the bones out of!

View attachment 173234

View attachment 173236

Next is Black 5 44816 light engine at Cricklewood on 22nd November 1961. This was a Cricklewood East engine in 1961 and thereafter moved around all over the surviving steam sheds. It ended up at Lostock Hall where it was one of the very last survivors not being withdrawn until 20th July 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen's, Kettering, by the end of June 1968. (BR Database).

View attachment 173235

Nice varied set of vans there. The second from the 4F is an ex-SR ventilated meat van (EDIT - dia. 1486 of 1931). Quite a handsome, if not common, prototype.

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the info on the vans, Adam. Added to the info for that photo.

Jubilee 45624 St Helena light engine at Cricklewood on 22nd November 1961. It was actually located to Rugby at the time, moving to Nuneaton in the following November from where it was withdrawn almost exactly two years later. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works for breaking up which was complete by the end of April 1964.



Q1 in the mist. 33002 returning to the SR with a brake van at Cricklewood on 22nd November 1961. Not surprisingly this was based at Feltham at withdrawn from there in July 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen's, Kettering, during June 1964.



You can almost feel the bitterness in the weather in the next few shots, the first of which is here. This is an unidentified Jubilee on an up Birmingham train at North Wembley on 1st January 1962. This raises a question in my mind about some of the earlier photos attributed to this date. The photos at Willesden in post #1716 are also listed as being 1st January but there is no snow apparent. I suspect they were taken on 24th February 1962 as they match in with others taken at Willesden on that date on a subsequent film. I'll correct those descriptions accordingly.


Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

Brian,

I really enjoy these wonderful pictures you continue to present for our pleasure and information and have long followed this thread. Thus I hesitate to criticise, but I rather feel that the picture at North Wembley shows a Jubilee. The loco is not portrayed in the sharpest of images but it appears to have splashers and a nameplate over the leading one. Could it possibly be 45671 'Prince Rupert' which I believe was either at Edge Hill or Longsight in this period?

Again, my thanks for the amazing and wonderful work you do with this collection.

Roger.

 

[Martin Shaw]

I have a feeling that Roger may well be correct about the loco class, if anything the chimney appears slightly taller than a Black 5's. Where he isn't correct though is the allocation which in Jan 62, as the black 5 45271 was also, Warrington. It moved from Edge Hill 28/10/61, although why Warrington which wasn't a notable passenger shed. IMO a Jub from that shed is more likely to be at Wembley than a 5. Discuss.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for your kind comments, Roger. I'm so glad that these pictures give pleasure and even, in some cases, inspiration to our number.

In no way do I take your comment as a criticism. I looked at the picture when I put it up here and initially agreed with Tim's description but now wonder whether you are correct. One thing I have just noticed because of the closer inspection is the negative scratch showing in the sky which I've failed to paint out!

Here again, in horrible close up, is the loco. I don't know whether it helps with the identification or not but I'd really like to put the record straight.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Martin. I suspect the balance is coming down in favour of a Jubilee. Any more takers?

As for allocations... Funny things were taking place by 1962 with unlikely locos ending up in unlikely places. Anyway, what's wrong with Warrington?

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Anyway, what's wrong with Warrington?

Nothing whatsoever, however it isn't where I would have allocated a Jubilee some years before withdrawal, nor in hindsight do I think it was Prince Rupert or any other Warrington loco. If it was a Birmingham train then one of Bushbury or Camden's allocation seems most likely, which one could be narrowed down, but no more than a guess.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

I agree, Martin. My mention of Warrington was tongue in cheek. I suspect the suggestion of Camden is a good one, but as to which particular loco.... We're agreed that it's a Jubilee, though?

Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

Definitely a Jubilee in my humble opinion. I defer to Martins greater knowledge of the locations of various locomotives and would just say the further reason behind my suggestion of 'Prince Rupert' was the similarity of the number - just a digit difference and could therefore be an eminent candidate for a Freudian Slip. I am happy to be corrected as my knowledge of workings in that area at that time is quite scanty.

Roger

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Roger for the further thought about the loco. I'm very happy to go with a Jubilee and understand very well your thoughts of a likely candidate. After all, we know that Tim wasn't entirely immune from number transpositions.

Continuing with the "deep and crisp and even"...

Two of 9F 92055 on an up freight at North Wembley on 1st January 1962. It was a Toton engine in early '62 but then moved all over the place before ending up at Speke Junction in October 1967. It was withdrawn from there in December the same year (SLS) and went to Ward's, Killamarsh, Sheffield where it was cut up in April 1968. (WHTS & Rail UK).





Two photos from a similar if not the same location Here's Black 5 45140 in this case double-heading with what Tim identified as a Class 45 - actually it's a Class 40 with no yellow nose panel - at North Wembley on 1st January 1962. The Black 5 was based at Speke Junction at the time, moving to Springs Branch, Wigan in August 1962 where it was withdrawn on 1st October 1966. (SLS). It was disposed of at Cashmore's Great Bridge in February 1967. (BR Database).





Recorded as Black 5 45041 on an up mixed parcels and freight at North Wembley on 1st January 1962 this may more properly be recorded as a van train. 45041 was at Edge Hill by the beginning of 1962 and it was another Black 5 that moved around a bit before ending up at Lostock Hall in October 1967. It didn't last long there, though, as it was withdrawn two months later. (SLS). It went to Drapers in Hull where it was scrapped by the end of 1968. (Rail UK).





Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

Hmm - Egan and Scotney's book, BR Locos Cut Up by Drapers of Hull lists 37 9F cut up there. 92055 isn't one of them although 92155 and 92205 are.
WHTS has the following entry:
Drapers's yards were amongst the best recorded and photographed of all scrapyards and I'm pretty sure that a 9F would not have crept in unnoticed.

 

[LarryG]

45624 has LNWR bogie wheels, probably off a Claughton. I have never seen this modelled on a Jubilee. I love the snow pictures. People always assume it is the winter of 1962-3, but we regularly had bad winters in those days. As you said, one can almost feel the bitterness in those images. In the cold was the choking smoke from thousands of coal fires...

 

[oldravendale]

Arun - thanks for pulling me up on that. If I'd just dipped in a bit further, to Rail UK I'd have at least had a question mark in my mind, although I suspect that Rail UK drew information from WHTS. Nevertheless, the entry against the photo has been edited accordingly.

Well spotted, Larry. I'd not noticed that. As for the snow, I don't remember the smoke from the household fires but I do remember how the snow very quickly accumulated a surface layer of grime. We certainly had some bad winter back then too. On one occasion my dear departed dad came out on my paper round with me because I couldn't get my bike through the drifts.

Same weather, same location....

An unidentified Black 5 on an up freight at North Wembley on 1st January 1962.



Crab 2-6-0 42747 on another up freight at North Wembley on 1st January 1962. The loco was living at Willesden at the time but moved to Birkenhead Mollington Street at the end of March 1962. (SLS). It was withdrawn almost a year later and was scrapped at Horwich Works by the end of April 1963. (Rail UK).


Princess Coronation 46225 Duchess of Gloucester on a clearly named train identified by Tim as an up Southport and Liverpool at North Wembley on 1st January 1962. Does that give any clue about the name of the train or is the train wrongly identified? 46225 was a Carlisle Upperby engine at the time, being withdrawn from there in September 1964 (SLS) going to Arnott Young at Troon where it was scrapped in the following December.





Brian

 

[oldravendale]

I suspect Tim's extremities were frozen off by now, so he returned to Euston and then went out next in February.

Royal Scot 46134 The Cheshire Regiment on a down Liverpool at North Wembley on 1st January 1962. It was a Crewe North engine finally being allocated to Carlisle Upperby and withdrawn from there at the beginning of December 1962. It was seen in the scrap road at Crewe Works in April 1963 (SLS) where it was scrapped by the end of the month. (Rail UK).



Another Royal Scot, 46138 The London Irish Rifleman arriving at Euston with the Emerald Isle Express on 1st January 1962. This was a Holyhead engine transferred to Carlisle Upperby in December 1962 and withdrawn from there in March 1963. (SLS). This also went to Crewe Works for disposal which was completed in May 1963.



Well, at least it looks a bit warmer but it may not have been...

Stanier 2-6-2T 40157 marshalling a parcels rake at Willesden on 24th February 1962. This had been a Willesden engine since August 1961 and it was withdrawn from there at the beginning of December 1962. (SLS). It was disposed of at Derby Works in April 1963.







Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Princess Coronation 46225 Duchess of Gloucester on a clearly named train identified by Tim as an up Southport and Liverpool at North Wembley on 1st January 1962. Does that give any clue about the name of the train or is the train wrongly identified? 46225 was a Carlisle Upperby engine at the time, being withdrawn from there in September 1964 (SLS) going to Arnott Young at Troon where it was scrapped in the following December.

A lot depends on whether we know the time of day the photo was taken. However, given Tim's description it is likely to be The Merseyside Express arriving in Euston a 2.10 pm

The named trains arriving in Euston in 1961 were:

Ruled out due to it being too dark in the morning for the time of year.
The Irish Mail 7.10 am
The Royal Highlander 8.30 am

These are likely candidates given the reasonable daylight hours for the time of year.
The Ulster Express 12.10pm (M-F), 1.10 (Sun) - (photo has correct shape headboard)
The Shamrock 12.35 pm - (photo has correct shape headboard)
The Mancunian 1.40 pm - (photo has correct shape headboard)
The Emerald Isle Express 1.50 pm - (photo has correct shape headboard)
The Merseyside Express 2.10 pm - the most likely as described by Tim and has the correct shape headboard
The Caledonian 3.40 pm (ruled out as headboard is the wrong shape)

Ruled out due to it being too dark in the afternoon/evening for the time of year.
The Royal Scot 5.10 pm (ruled out as headboard is the wrong shape)
The Northern Irishman 8.25 pm
The Lancastrian 8.30 pm
The Mid-Day Scot 9.00 pm
The Red Rose 9.30 pm
The Comet 9.50 pm

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Dave, for your suggestions about the named train. I'll add the options to the photo. Looking at all those named trains now it seems just remarkable. Have we not lost something with the absence of named trains now?

Here's Rebuilt Jubilee 45735 Comet on shed at Willesden on 24th February 1962. This was seen and detailed in post #1716 so won't be repeated here.



Here's 45735 again together with Jubilee 45586 Mysore on shed at Willesden on 24th February 1962. 45586 was at Aston at the time and ended up at Crewe South in August 1962 from where it was withdrawn in January 1965. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was scrapped during April 1965.



Two photos now of 4F 0-6-0 44531 shunting at Cricklewood on 22nd November 1961. This was last seen in post #538 so again details can be found there.





Brian

 

[JimG]

Here's 45735 again together with Jubilee 45586 Mysore on shed at Willesden on 24th February 1962. 45586 was at Aston at the time and ended up at Crewe South in August 1962 from where it was withdrawn in January 1965. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was scrapped during April 1965.

View attachment 173770

Brian

Decorated smokebox door on the Jubilee.

Jim.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for drawing attention to that, Jim. At the time I remember locos being specially bulled up for special trains and this sort of decoration wasn't hugely unusual in such cases. However, in the case of Mysore the only excursion use I can find (on Six Bells Junction) was for one of the Grand National Specials on 19th March 1961. I'd have thought that, by the time of the photo, any such special treatment would have long faded away but there's no doubt it's present in the Photo.

Here's a real change. N2 0-6-2T 69535 on a local freight at Harringay West on 27th February 1962. Bloomin' cold it looks again, too. It was a Kings Cross engine at the time, moving to New England in May 1962. (BR Database). The SLS says it was further allocated to Doncaster in June 1962 (or was it sent there prior to scrapping?). In any event both agree that it was withdrawn in September 1962. Rail UK agrees that the last shed was New England and that it was at Doncaster Works for scrapping which was completed in February 1963.



Regrettably we don't know the loco ID on this one but it's recorded as a B1 up parcels mishap at Harringay West on 27th February 1962. I suspect it's rather more than that, though, and I'm doubtful that it's a parcels train involved. It looks to me as though there's an engineers carriage third vehicle behind the engine, but that calls in to question why there'd be two conflats with containers immediately behind the loco. I guess we'll never know but with luck the discussion will run and run (and hopefully go off in all sorts of interesting directions).





V2 60864 on a down parcels (actually a container train, methinks) at Harringay West on 27th February 1962. It was a York (North) engine at the time, being withdrawn from there in March 1964. (SLS). It travelled to Darlington for destruction which was completed in the following month. (BR Database)



Brian