Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Dog Star]

The OHLE revisions were incorporated into the WCML works and other electrification projects and new units arrived with the system isolated or removed, all the AL1-5 locos had the system isolated and later removed.

This post may fall by the way side unless there are some Blue Brigade peeps lurking in the murky corners of WT... I have a recollection that the subject of exploding equipment cupboards/cabinets has surfaced on WT many years ago, maybe even as many as ten years back. At that time I think that the stock at fault was working on the WCML and the incident(s) happened in the Coventry area, something to do with equipment in the guard's office. I think that a contributor to the discussion was Ian Ploffy (@iploffy) (last seen here on 4th September 2022!).

Anyone remember where that content can be found?

regards, Graham

 

[Genghis]

The issue I believe was down to the 6.25Kv tapping, as far as I know, Clyde services were the only route to use the 6.25/25Kv change over in stations and I believe it was also briefly tested on the Colchester/Clacton branch and the Style loop in Manchester, but Clydeside was the only operational route. I've a niggle in the back of my mind that the GE around Liverpool Street/Stratford may have been 6.25Kv as well but I can't find my source to confirm or deny that, I think they may have gone straight from 1500V DC to 25Kv with the planned 6.25Kv sections simply not required.

I am sure that Liverpool St was 6.25kV AC after 1500V DC. The AM12's on the GE were different from their cousins on the LM. I remember reading an engineering article about the testing that was done to prove that the reduced BR clearances were acceptable (UIC standards were in force before that). IIRC Changeover points were at Cheshunt and Shenfield (ish) whilst the whole of the Southend route remained 6.25kV until conversion, sometime in the 1980s I think.

As an aside Liverpool St used the same insulators for all voltages.............

David

 

[oldravendale]

Please, never apologise for diversions on this thread, Jim, or anyone else for that matter. Some of the rabbit holes we've found have been fascinating.

Jim - I'd not thought about the withdrawal of the EMUs but I think you've talked about this previously. We had a short run of Tim's photos of these trains previously. He obviously hit Scotland at exactly the right time, and the last opportunity as a steam man, to record these trains. (Thanks for the snippet about John Brown's as well).

Martin - thanks again for correcting info and providing new stuff yet again. As far as St Rollox is concerned it'll probably appear again as it's the name recognised by enthusiasts. In fact shed 65B appears in the Locoshed Books as St Rollox so to call it Balornock at this stage of the game might just cause confusion, but I certainly consider myself better educated.... As far as the corrections and additional stuff is concerned, solid gold my friend. Thanks for the additional research on the misnumbered Black 5 as well. (My Locoshed Book for the period still doesn't register Balornock!) I agree with you about the likely identification but we'll never know.

Mick - thanks for additional information about the 6.25Kv situation on the GE. More info to expand my knowledge together with that exceptional article about the AM3s. Thanks, Jim.. Also to Chris for his two penn-orth. And to David. I can check that - even the ABCs had that sort of info in them. It sort of chimes with Mick's comment.

Graham - I travelled on the WCML units regularly for years and don't remember the incident to which you refer, although I was using the suburban trains in to Euston. I'd be really interested to know more.

A sort of repeat of the last picture in the previous post but this time with Standard 2-6-4T 80051 and Jubilee 45714 Revenge at Glasgow St Enoch on 14th September 1965. Note the unlamented disabled car on the platform. The Jubilee was a Carlisle Kingmoor engine at the time but later in the year moved to Carnforth from where it was withdrawn in July 1963. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Cowlairs Works by the end of August the same year. (Rail UK). The Standard tank was a Corkerhill engine being withdrawn from there in August 1966. (SLS). Disposal was at Metal Industries, Faslane, during October 1966. (BR Database).


This is Midland 4-4-0 40620 also at Glasgow St Enoch on 14th September 1961. This was a Corkerhill engine and withdrawn from there the same year Tim photographed it, in October. (SLS). It was broken up at Connels, Coatbridge in July 1963.


Now a couple of poor quality due to fogging - (did Tim open the back of the camera in error?) - but included for the detail within the pictures. First is Princess Coronation 46257 City of Salford on the 7.45pm through coaches sleeper to Eastbourne at Glasgow St Enoch on 14th September 1961. Did through coaches really go to such an unlikely destination direct from Glasgow? That was proper service, that was! Note 4-4-0 40620, details above, in the adjacent platform.

46257 had been a Carlisle Kingmoor engine since April 1961 and was withdrawn from there in September 1964. It was scrapped at Arnott Young, Troon, during January 1965. (BR Database).



40620 again, here on empty stock but still at Glasgow St Enoch on 14th September 1961.



..... and another of City of Salford on the 7.45pm through coaches sleeper to Eastbourne still at Glasgow St Enoch on 14th September 1961.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Just picking up on a couple of points, a map courtesy of the National Library of Scotland of the environs immediately east of the city of Glasgow in 1938.


The blue outlines is Cowlairs Works of the NBR/LNER/ScR, and just off image immediately above it is Eastfield Shed.
The green outline is the NBL works, Hyde Park Works formerly Neilson Reid, Atlas Works formerly Sharp Stewart, and Mons Works added during the first war to Atlas Works. The unamed building to the north of Atlas works was Marne works also dating from the First War. Queens Park works formerly Dubs and Co whilst part of the NBL was south of the river closeish to Polmadie shed.
The yellow outline is St Rollox works of the CR/LMS/ScR, the red outline is Balornock shed some distance from St Rollox, although to be wholly fair BR unlike its CR and LMS predecessors referred to Balornock as St Rollox which is where the confusion arises.

There was an overnight service from Glasgow Central to Eastbourne and presumably vice versa, which may have had sleeping cars detached somewhere in the London area. Certainly there appears to have been a loco change at Willesden with usually a Black 5 (what else) working the train on SR lines. The appearance of the train at St Enoch in Tim's pic is almost certainly due to engineering works in connection with the Clydeside electrification and associated engineering works or Glasgow Central resignalling. I need to check out some dates here.
Regards
Martin

 

[Dave Holt]

The 4-4-0 is LH drive, so I think it's an ex-LMS rather than Midland example?
Dave.

 

[JimG]

The 4-4-0 is LH drive, so I think it's an ex-LMS rather than Midland example?
Dave.

The G&SWR loco stock at the Grouping was in a pretty poor way after the machinations of several C.M.E's up to Grouping. The LMS first supplied 4P Compounds to overcome the problem and they were appreciated by the drivers. The 4Ps were followed up by 2P 4-4-0s which became a very popular locomotive on the ex-G&SWR system.

Here's a quote from David Smith's "Legends of the G&SWR in LMS Days"

" The compounds may have been predominant in 1928, but the summer of that year saw the first arrivals of a class that would have an even great influence on the old G&SWR district. On 5th June I was told that a new 4-4-0 had come that morning to Hurlford shed - no, not a compound. It was painted black, and its number was 570. It was, of course, one of the earliest of the Midland superheater rebuilds. Later, we were to know them, from their load classification, as the 2P class. At first the men called them "The Wee Black Yins".

They came not in battalions. Hurlford got four, Nos. 570/1/3/4, then 577 came solitary to Corkerhill; Ardrossan got Nos. 578/9. It was rather ludicrous that only one came to Corkerhill, with not a word of instruction concerning it. Not long after she came, Corkerhill was short of a compound for the Sunday excursion to Keswick, so they gave Jock Paterson No. 577 instead. They had no instructions about load limits: a compound was allowed 300 tons over the Barrhead road, No. 577 was much the same shape as a compound, so they presumed that it would take the same load. And so Jock Paterson went away with 284 tons on the Keswick. 'She's no' much worth', he told me next day, '22 meenits t' turn the Shilford, an' I had her full open and full fore gear'. I do not suppose anyone else ever took 284 tons over Shilford with a class 2P. When the new load book came out, top load for a 2P over this section was 170 tons! "

Jim.

 

[LarryG]

Your photos show two classes I saw regularly on the Standedge route namely the 57xx Jubilee's with Fowler tenders, often double headed with a 2P 4-4-0. A combined 9P was sufficient to haul long Newcastle expresses over the Pennines and they made a wonderful sound. 40620 is a bit unusual in not having the Scottish style of lining behind the buffer beam.

 

[MoatLane]

There was an overnight service from Glasgow Central to Eastbourne and presumably vice versa, which may have had sleeping cars detached somewhere in the London area. Certainly there appears to have been a loco change at Willesden with usually a Black 5 (what else) working the train on SR lines. The appearance of the train at St Enoch in Tim's pic is almost certainly due to engineering works in connection with the Clydeside electrification and associated engineering works or Glasgow Central resignalling. I need to check out some dates here.
Regards
Martin

I'm intrigued by this Martin; can't find any mention of it in the September 1961 timetable. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place.

 

[MoatLane]

I was looking in the wrong place. The following summer, 1962, the train ran Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays from St Enoch at 7.45pm, taking a shade under 12h. Fare for driver and car was £22 return. Thanks to timetableworld.com
where I found this info.

 

[oldravendale]

Martin - thank you for a super description of the layout around Glasgow. As you said earlier, all gone now - I saw just the tail end of it on my first trip to Scotland and when I was visiting regularly (I had a client who had his offices in one of the the old Singer buildings) most had been swept away. That map deserves some study time.

Thanks also for the details of the Eastbourne overnighter. And to Chris for his 1962 confirmation.

Thanks for memories and observations too, Larry. All grist to the mill.

Dave - I suspect you are correct. That was a lazy description by me. Perhaps I should have called it a Fowler 4-4-0. However, it was certainly an LMS build.

Jubilee 45693 Agamemnon in forward gear and ready to leave the south end of Kilmarnock Station on 14th September 1961. This was a Corkerhill engine (BR Database and Rail UK) and was withdrawn from there either at the end of October 1962 (Rail UK) or the end of December the same year (BR Database). It was broken up by Campbells of Airdrie by the end of 1963. (Rail UK).



This is 2P 4-4-0 of the LMS flavour No 40602 from a train at Kilmarnock (works behind the train) on 14th September 1961. It was a Hurlford engine at the time. There seems to be a bit of confusion about what happened to this loco. BR Database records withdrawal from Hurlford on 21st October 1961 but the SLS record says it was allocated to an unspecified shed on the LM Region on the same date, later being withdrawn from Carlisle Kingmoor on 4th November. This seems unlikely. Rail UK records it as withdrawn from Corkerhill on 31st October 1961 whence it went to Connels at Coatbridge where it was scrapped by the end of August 1963. WHTS agrees about the scrapyard, has an updated withdrawal date as recorded by the SLS of week ending 21st October 1961 and was observed in store at Hurlford on 1st October 1961. Interestingly an allocation to Carlisle Kingmoor in October 1961 has been scored through and cancelled. On balance withdrawal from Hurlford on 21st October seems most likely in the absence of anything more definitive.


812 Class 0-6-0 57614 on a coal train in sidings at Ayr Yards on 14th September 1961. This was at shedded at Ayr at the time and was withdrawn from there at the beginning of October 1962. (BR Database). It was scrapped at Arnott Young, Troon, during February 1964. (BR Database, Rail UK and WHTS which also records it being sighted in store at Ayr on several occasions through 1963 and also at Arnott Young in January 1964).





Here's the same loco, 57614, light engine at Ayr on 14th September 1961.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

The first of todays is not St Enoch which had no mechanical signalling from 1933 to closure, it's actually the south end of Kilmarnock.
Martin

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

The G&SWR loco stock at the Grouping was in a pretty poor way after the machinations of several C.M.E's up to Grouping. The LMS first supplied 4P Compounds to overcome the problem and they were appreciated by the drivers. The 4Ps were followed up by 2P 4-4-0s which became a very popular locomotive on the ex-G&SWR system.

Here's a quote from David Smith's "Legends of the G&SWR in LMS Days"

" The compounds may have been predominant in 1928, but the summer of that year saw the first arrivals of a class that would have an even great influence on the old G&SWR district. On 5th June I was told that a new 4-4-0 had come that morning to Hurlford shed - no, not a compound. It was painted black, and its number was 570. It was, of course, one of the earliest of the Midland superheater rebuilds. Later, we were to know them, from their load classification, as the 2P class. At first the men called them "The Wee Black Yins".

They came not in battalions. Hurlford got four, Nos. 570/1/3/4, then 577 came solitary to Corkerhill; Ardrossan got Nos. 578/9. It was rather ludicrous that only one came to Corkerhill, with not a word of instruction concerning it. Not long after she came, Corkerhill was short of a compound for the Sunday excursion to Keswick, so they gave Jock Paterson No. 577 instead. They had no instructions about load limits: a compound was allowed 300 tons over the Barrhead road, No. 577 was much the same shape as a compound, so they presumed that it would take the same load. And so Jock Paterson went away with 284 tons on the Keswick. 'She's no' much worth', he told me next day, '22 meenits t' turn the Shilford, an' I had her full open and full fore gear'. I do not suppose anyone else ever took 284 tons over Shilford with a class 2P. When the new load book came out, top load for a 2P over this section was 170 tons! "

Jim.

Jim,

You are correct in that the Sou’West loco stock was in a very bad way at grouping. However it was not solely due to the machinations of several CME’s more the legacy of the Great War, insufficient funds and the incompetence of one Robert Whitelegg, the last loco superintendent.

The G&SWR board were not prone to spending money and kept the loco dept on a tight budget. Kilmarnock works was very cramped and had little in the way of modern machine tools. Both James Manson and Peter Drummond had to fight for every penny and Manson had to keep rebuilding 30 year old engines just the keep the traffic moving.

During the war maintenance got way behind and there were lines of locomotives stored at sheds waiting the call. Whitelegg breezed in 6 months after the death of Peter Drummond and straightway started a major refurbishment programme including a series of new standard boilers and simplifications of the valve gear. The new boilers were poor steamers and the modifications to the valve gear completely altered the valve events to their severe detriment. Coal consumption soared as performance suffered. David L Smith described Whiteleggs rebuilds as ‘wretched’ and the fine even beat of the originals replaced by his rebuilds ‘like a dog fight at the front end’. Most of the locomotive stock were in this diabolical condition when the LMS took over, within 10 years of the grouping 80% had gone. It is little wonder that the Sou’West men took to the 2Ps, and even some Caley cast offs, like ducks to water.

Ian.

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

Brian,

Martin is correct. The view of Agamemnon is the south end of Kilmarnock station looking over the viaduct towards the Kay Park.

Agamemnon is an old friend of mine, An engine I saw many a lunchtime on my school lunch break when I, and countless other boys, made the pilgrimage up the Barr Hill to Cumnock Station. We didn't always make it back down before the bell for afternoon lessons, especially if the signal went off when we should have been leaving!

40602 is also well kent! It was the first 2P noted in my spotters notebook, Ayr station, Friday evening before Scouts, on a local from Kilmarnock. I saw it many times after that until displaced by DMUs. Happy days.

The location of the picture is Kilmarnock with the works behind the train, The building with the windows in the gable end was the erecting and paint shop. By the time of the photo Kilmarnock was reduced to breaking locomotives and there was usually a line of engines awaiting their fate alongside the Dalry running lines. Between 40602 and the Diesel shunter are the lines to Barassie junction on the Ayr line. A bit to the east that line regained the course of the original Kilmarnock & Troon railway, the 1st railway in Scotland and 1st use of a steam engine, 1816. The Diesel is coming out of Kilmarnock goods which also served the Andrew Barclay Caledonia works. A very interesting picture with lots of detail worth an extended look.

Ian.

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

The first 2 views of 57614 are Ayr Falkland Yard with Falkland Junction box just peeking out behind the telegraph pole. The last view is of her on the down line just approaching Newton on Ayr station, you can just see the platform, curving off left, and the footbridge. She is no doubt on her way to Ayr loco shed which is about 1/4 mile beyond the station.

Ian.

 

[Dave Holt]

Furthermore, Agamemnon is in forward gear (you can just make out the reverser lifting arm is below centre), so it's not backing down but about to move forward although it's already beyond the stop signal.
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Martin, for putting the location of the Jubilee right. Duly altered in Edit mode.

And Jim. That's interesting stuff. It's a while since I read the Smith book and I should read it again. I remember it being more entertaining than many. Also the info about Kilmarnock, duly added to the info accompanying the photo and the detailed info about the locations of 57614.

Thanks for pointing out the error in description of the Jubilee as well, Dave. Again, duly changed in edit.

Now one completely "off piste" again - how it came to be in the gap between Scottish and LMR steam we'll never know. However, it's fair to say that Tim's filing system could be termed either "original" or "chaotic".

Here is WT Class 2-6-4T of Ulster Transport on a Larne Harbour to Belfast train at Larne. It's consecutive to the images above and is last on the film and there's no change of date but probably safe to say that it was taken in September 1962. I have no further info about the loco other than to say that I seem to remember these locos carrying the nickname of "Jeeps" - but I may be wrong.



LMS rebuilt G2a 0-8-0 No 49293 on shed at Willesden on 24th February 1962. (A favourite class of mine which always seemed a bit of an anachronism when they remained in service in the 1960s although rebuilt as late as 1948). This loco was allocated to Nuneaton at the time, moving to Edge Hill in 1962 from where it was withdrawn at the beginning of December the same year. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works for disposal which was completed by the end of April 1963. (Rail UK).





An unknown Black 5, Jubilee 45586 Mysore and Rebuilt Jubilee 45735 Comet front ends at Willesden on 24th February 1962. 45586 was allocated to Aston at the time moving to Crewe North and Crewe South where it was withdrawn in January 1965. It went to Cashmore's, Great Bridge where it was scrapped during April 1965. 45735 had been at Edge Hill but transferred officially to Willesden at the beginning of February, so the paperwork may have followed the actuality. It was one of the locos which ended up on the GC during its dying days being withdrawn from Annesley in October 1964. (SLS) It also went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was disposed of in January 1965.



Princess Coronation 46225 Duchess of Gloucester on shed at Willesden on 24th February 1962. It was a Carlisle Upperby engine and was withdrawn in September 1964 (SLS) going to Arnott Young in Troon for scrapping which was completed during December 1964. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[Overseer]

Here is W Class 2-6-4T of Ulster Transport on a Larne Harbour to Belfast train at Larne. It's consecutive to the images above and is last on the film and there's no change of date but probably safe to say that it was taken in September 1962. I have no further info about the loco other than to say that I seem to remember these locos carrying the nickname of "Jeeps" - but I may be wrong.

Jeep, yes. But it is a WT class. The W class were the preceding 2-6-0 tender locos. Nice photo, as are the others.

 

[LarryG]

While walking between the lines of engines at Lees (26F) before asking for a job, I thought 'good 'o, they've got a G2'. I didn't know it had come up on the Stockport job, which was normally a Fowler 2-6-4T. So no firing G2's for me! They fascinated enthusiasts because all the other large LNWR engines had gone.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the correction, Overseer. I've edited to give the correct class designation. Interesting because, in a bit, there'll be some real Ws!

And thanks for the memories, Larry.

Clearly 22nd November 1961 was a reet grotty day in Cricklewood. However, that never stopped Tim.

Two of 4F 0-6-0 43947 on a freight for the Southern Region with a varied set of vans. The second from the 4F is an ex-SR ventilated meat van. Quite a handsome, if not common, prototype. The second from the 4F is an ex-SR ventilated meat van. Quite a handsome, if not common, prototype. 43947 was a Cricklewood East engine for a long time, not leaving until September 1962 when it moved to Kettering. It then moved around ending up at Trafford Park where it was withdrawn in October 1964. (BR Database). SLS records are not quite so certain suggesting that it was withdrawn on 24th October from Buxton and then moved to Trafford Park - even was allocated there - on 7th November 1964, which seems most unlikely. Rail UK agrees with the date of withdrawal and advises the last shed to have been Trafford Park whence it went to T W Ward Killamarsh for breaking up by the end of February 1965. WHTS advises it was in store at Trafford Park between October 1964 and the beginning of November 1964. It agrees with the loco going to Ward's but gives completion of scrapping as March 1965.

Another to pick the bones out of!





Next is Black 5 44816 light engine at Cricklewood on 22nd November 1961. This was a Cricklewood East engine in 1961 and thereafter moved around all over the surviving steam sheds. It ended up at Lostock Hall where it was one of the very last survivors not being withdrawn until 20th July 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen's, Kettering, by the end of June 1968. (BR Database). These dates are clearly incompatible. Further digging reveals It was apparently observed at Lostock Hall in November 1968, then en route to Kettering in January 1969 and in sidings at Kettering at the end of January. It was reported by the Railway Observer as intact in the scrapyard on 1st March 1969. I wonder if the date of scrapping should actually be June 1969 rather than 1968.



Finally for today an atmospheric shot of unknown 8F on a northbound freight at Cricklewood on 22nd November 1961.



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Next is Black 5 44816 light engine at Cricklewood on 22nd November 1961. This was a Cricklewood East engine in 1961 and thereafter moved around all over the surviving steam sheds. It ended up at Lostock Hall where it was one of the very last survivors not being withdrawn until 20th July 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen's, Kettering, by the end of June 1968. (BR Database).

Oh dear, confused dates again - scrapped before withdrawn.