Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

I agree, Jan. A cracking photo. I remember being regularly deafened at Kings X with safety valves blowing off, despite the plethora of notices asking crews to keep the noise down!

For today a sudden and unexpected diversion. Hidden in the Scottish photos are these. Frustratingly the film number attributed to them suggests they are probably also 1961 although it doesn't appear in Tim's notes. If in sequence it would suggest September 1961 but that's not possible for reasons which will become obvious. I have no details for location either so suggestions will be appreciated.

Some nice portraits, although all from the same angle, of King Arthur 30457 Sir Bedivere. As the loco was withdrawn from Nine Elms in May 1961 (SLS) it can't quite be contemporary with the Scottish photos. It was shedded at Nine Elms and this is Waterloo Station. It was scrapped in July 1961 although neither the SLS, BR Database or Rail UK know where. As this action was so rapid, though, and based on knowledge of how the majority of N15s met their end I'd hazard a guess that it was at Eastleigh. (Confirmed by WHTS).







More ordinary fare here, but still on the Southern. BR Standard Class 4 2-6-4T 80018 alongside an EMU. Is this still Waterloo? The number of the EMU is just not decipherable, but the loco was probably based at Tunbridge Wells West, assuming this is 1961. It ended up at Eastleigh from where it was withdrawn in April 1965 after a period in store. (SLS). It went to Cohens at Morriston where it was scrapped during August 1965. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

WHTS has the following details for 30457:


The RFA Landing Ship 'Sir Bedivere' was the first RFA ship I travelled on in the late 70's on a one-way trip between Liverpool and Belfast. The five ships of the class were all named after knights of the Round Table.

I can't say where it is, but I don't think 80018 was photographed at Waterloo - though it might just be Waterloo East of course..

 

[MoatLane]

It's not Victoria is it?

 

[Martin Shaw]

Bradley confirms 30457 was withdrawn in May 61 and cut up at Eastleigh. He also suggests Nine Elms King Arthurs were by 1961 on borrowed time and reduced to Bournemouth relief workings, Bulleid pacifics of both sizes held sway on the long distance workings and things like Basingstoke stoppers were just about still using N15Xs or more likely Std 5s. The headcode doesn't help, it indicates a Waterloo or Nine Elms to Southampton terminus direct, a possibility, or Waterloo to Richmond via Twickenham which is unlikely. Notice that steam is escaping fron the carriage warming apparatus connection so the train is being heated, not really much help but it does officially exclude June to September inclusive.

To answer Moat Lane's rhetorical question, yes it is, and specifically just south of Eccleston Bridge, more or less across the middle of Victoria station Brighton side, and across the throat of the Chatham station. The EMU is either a 6PUL, set nos 3001 to 3020, a 6 car set with a Pullman car in the middle for those not up on proper railways, or a 6CIT which was basically a 6PUL, set nos 3041 to 3043, but with all 1st Class seating outwith the motor cars. The later 6PAN motor coaches had sliding airstream ventilators above the main lights which discounts them and it's obviously not a 5BEL. The 6CITs were intended for City commuters to London Bridge so most likely a 6PUL.

80018 has a headcode for Victoria, Oxted and TWW via Hever which makes complete sense, a nice day out for the crew if it wasn't raining. I think these were almost the last steam services from Victoria post Kent Coast Electrification.
Regards
Martin

 

[MoatLane]

Thanks Martin, Chris here. I thought so. But the Oxted/TWW services usually used the short platforms on the west side of Vic, the ones with their own concourse adjacent to to the 'news' cinema alongisde Buckingham Palace Road. Incidentally, it's Eccleston not stone

 

[Martin Shaw]

Chris
Thanks for the correction, a bit weird since I copied it from a map that is correctly spelled.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Arun, Chris and Martin. Thank you for the additional and in some cases confirmatory info. We actually still don't know the dates of these photos but I'm wondering whether 1960 would be more reasonable in the circumstances. We know that traffic flows on the Southern were much increased through the summer and that locos would be put in to storage through the winter months. Age considered I'd have thought that a King Arthur may well have been in store although maybe not - I'm told that they were a popular class with crews which may have kept them working right up to withdrawal. In fact the SLS record tells us that 30457 was in store from 7th October 1952 until 27th March 1953. Although this doesn't help with dating this particular photo it does demonstrate that loco storage through the winter was not unusual.

As for the location, particularly of the Standard 4 tank, thanks for the confirmation. Tim was clearly moving around the main line stations when he took these two photos so I wonder if there are any more. In that respect I've just taken delivery of another four large plastic containers of Tim's 35mm slides when his widow visited yesterday. (I'd already collected four boxes previously). A quick check of half a dozen of the slide boxes within confirms some stunning stuff - it seems to be somewhat later than we are looking at here and often blue diesels with quite a lot on heritage railways, particularly the GCR. There's years of scanning in these boxes and I've not finished the black & whites yet so it's something to look forward to in the longer term.

Brian

 

[MoatLane]

Living 5 mins away, as a child I was often at Victoria in the late-1950s. Not so much for travel though. My father worked for a shipping company and I used to go with him to collect packages from the cross-Channel mails. Lots of cab visits but I was too young to pay attention to details like loco types and numbers. Later I remember seeing standard tanks on the Oxted line trains, though the Oxted -- TWW shuttle was powered by 0-4-4 tanks when I rode it. H class or M7s I suppose.

There was a great view of the whole station throat from a gate in the wall of Eccleston bridge. Be good to see more if Tim spent time around South London.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Way back in post #1528 I wrote,

It would seem that there were 13 Scots allocated to Annesley between 2/62 and 11/64, 01/11/12/22/26/43/53/56/58/63/65/67/69.

I now have to hand info from the RCTS on the matter from their recently published book on the class, and a very fine book it is. I am now able to answer any question on Royal Scots including the colour of the drivers socks.

For the possibly most definitive record,
Two Scots were transferred from Saltley to Leicester GC for a period of a few weeks and then back to the LM again at Upperby. This was obviously a try out to see if the motive power situation on the GC under LM control could be improved.
46106 12/5/62 - 30/6/62, wdn 8/12/62
46118 19/5/62 - 30/6/62, wdn 13/6/64

It must have worked well enough although there is no doubt that the worst ones went to Annesley as their final shed before withdrawal. The list is in engine number order,
46101 from Willesden 5/1/63 - 31/8/63
46111 from Willesden 12/1/63 - 28/9/63
46112 from Nottingham 29/9/62 - 9/5/64
46114 from Willesden 8/9/63 - 28/9/63
46122 from Upperby 15/12/62 - 17/10/64
46125 from Willesden 8/9/63 - 3/10/64
46126 from Willesden 1/2/62 - 5/10/63
46143 from Trafford Park 29/9/62 - 21/12/63
46153 from Trafford Park 29/9/62 - 22/12/62
46156 from Willesden 6/10/63 - 10/10/64
46158 from Trafford Park 29/9/62 - 19/10/63
46163 from Willesden 12/1/63 - 29/8/64
46165 from Crewe North 22/2/64 - 21/11/64
46167 from Willesden 21/9/63 - 11/4/64
46169 from Willesden 5/1/63 - 25/5/63

The two missed first time around, 114 was only there for 3 weeks so I guess could easily not been observed, 125 was there for over a year so I'm surprised it didn't appear in other publications. I think that will do.
Martin

 

[mickoo]

30457 is platform 8 at Waterloo
80018 is Victoria

 

[Simon]

Lovely to see the pictures on the "Suvvern", just when I was first seeing such things in those parts of London.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Chris and Mick but especially Martin. I've saved all that info for use later and in the pictures to come is one of 46106 on the GC and the date fits. Can we take this as a primary source, or at least a reliable secondary one?

Plenty of confirmation for Victoria on the second subject too, for which I thank you, Chris and Mick.

Simon, there is more Suvvern to come but not for a bit. Before we get there Tim covered the ER, then the LMR, WR, Ireland, narrow gauge, industrials etc but there are some crackers when we get to them.

For today we'll return to Scotland.

Caledonian 300 Class 57686 at Germiston Junction on 14th September 1961. As far as I can see it was a St Rollox (Balornock) loco for it's entire life. It was withdrawn from there towards the end of March 1962 and it went to 03/1963 at Arnott Young at Old Kilpatrick where it was scrapped a year later. (SLS and BR Database).



Black 5 recorded as 45450 on a local to Buchanan St at Germiston Junction on 14th September 1961 but I don't think it can be. (I did a recheck to see if I could have mis-read the number as 45456 which was a Scottish loco based at Ardrossan but it's certainly recorded by Tim as 45450). 45450 was at Annesley in 1961 so unlikely to have made the journey to Scotland. Nevertheless a Black 5 it most certainly is. (SLS).



Here's a couple of photos taken somewhere I've travelled past any number of times on the M8 but when I first read it in Tim's notes I thought it was a mis-spelling. North British 336 Class 65246 at Garngad Junction on 14th September 1961. It was based at Parkhead Shed at the time and it was withdrawn from there in January 1962 (SLS) whence it went to Inverurie Works for scrapping which was complete during February 1962.





Brian


Brian

 

[oldravendale]

This is V3 2-6-2 tanks 67678 and 67646 in the stock sidings at Hyndland, Glasgow on 14th September 1961, although I'm a bit doubtful about the second number as 67646 was a North Eastern England loco at the time, being based at Heaton, Newcastle. Not impossible it moved I suppose, but unlikely. However, for what it's worth it was withdrawn from Gateshead in November 1964. (All SLS). It went to T J Thompson & Sons at Stockton for disposal which had been completed by the end of February 1965. We're on firmer ground with 67678, tough, as this was a Parkhead engine until December 1962 when it moved to Heaton. It stayed in the North East and was withdrawn from Gateshead in November 1964. (SLS). It also went to T J Thompson & Sons and was scrapped alongside 67646 in February 1965.



Fairburn 2-6-4T 42197 entering on a local at Yoker Ferry Station on 14th September 1961. It was shedded at Dawsholm and withdrawn from Greenock Layburn at the end of May 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at McLellans, Langloan, by the end of September 1966.



Finally Princess Coronation 46226 Duchess of Norfolk and Fairburn 2-6-4T 42695 at Glasgow St Enoch on 14th September 1961. Details of the Princess Coronation are in post #1583. 42695 was a Polmadie engine, moved to Motherwell in December 1961 and then back to Polmadie in December 1962 from where it was withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It went to Motherwell Machinery and Scrap at Wishaw where it was disposed of by the end of September 1964. (Rail UK).



Here's another of 42695, same day, same location.



Brian

 

[JimG]

This is V3 2-6-2 tanks 67678 and 67646 in the stock sidings at Hyndland, Glasgow on 14th September 1961, although I'm a bit doubtful about the second number as 67646 was a North Eastern England loco at the time, being based at Heaton, Newcastle. Not impossible it moved I suppose, but unlikely.

It is possible. The North Side Blue Train services had started in November 1960 but the stock had to be withdrawn from service shortly after the start because of problems with transformers blowing up. The North side NB/LNE system previously had been run using V1/V3 tanks and a lot of these locomotives had been re-distributed to other areas at the start of the electric services. I was in London at the time, but a good friend of mine commented that steam locomotives of all types had to be pulled back to North Clydeside to maintain the service. He reported some quite exotic (for Clydeside) locomotives doing the service, and loco drivers also trying to maintain the times of the electric service.

So 67646 probably should have been in the Newcastle area, but was whipped back to Glasgow to cover the problem.

These locomotives didn't have long to go on their rescue service since the Blue trains came back into service in November 1961 and worked very successfully thereafter.

Jim.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Coo Brian, rather a lot of glorious stuff. Going back to last nights pics we should put the record straight, St Rollox is a part of Springburn at which location the Caledonian erected their works which they and subsequent owners called St Rollox Works. The locomotive running shed for services from Buchanan Street station was a mile east of St Rollox in the district of Balornock which is the correct name for the loco shed. Unfortunately and quite generally St Rollox has become the de facto name for the whole area most of which no longer exists. The pics of the 812 and the Black 5 are not at St Rollox Junc despite what Tim might have captioned his negs, there never was a railway location of that name. The signal box pictured is Germiston Junc and was distinctly unusual in that it had two lever frames. A 64 lever one controlled the low junction which are the passenger lines to Buchanan St and access to Balornock shed. These are the two line most leftwards in the 812 pic. The next pair are the up and down main and the right hand one is a through siding from Milton Junc to Germiston Junc. The other side of the box had a 27 lever frame which effectively controlled access to St Rollox Works, the two lines passing to the right of the photographer, as well as a junction to either the CR or towards the NB and Garngad where the J36 was pictured. The two locations are geographically less than a mile apart but as Brian points out much has disappeared beneath the M8/M80. Even in 1961 there was still a mass of goods only branches and sidings here and piecing it together from maps is sometimes a challenge.

The Black 5 is actually fairly easy to narrow down, it has the distinguishing forward top feed fitted post war to about 20 boilers and having trawled the list and identified engines that had them fitted in Sept 61 I am left with a choice of six. It isnt 45450 which never had that type, and I think not 45456 which had that type of boiler until March 61, so possibly 45355 Dalry Road, 45356 Balornock, 45357 Stirling, 45453 Perth, 45458 Balornock, 45468 Balornock. It's difficult to make out, one of the last 3 is I feel most likely, take your pick.

I can't identify the ecclesiastic looking tower behind the J36 tender, or the chimney appearing from the cab roof but I think the location is Garngad Goods Station, but I could well be wrong.
Regards
Martin

 

[JimG]

Fairburn 2-6-4T 42197 entering on a local at Yoker Ferry Station on 14th September 1961. It was shedded at Dawsholm and withdrawn from Greenock Layburn at the end of May 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at McLellans, Langloan, by the end of September 1966.

Just as an aside, the cranes (pronounced "krans" on Clydeside) in the distance are at John Brown's yard in Clydebank.

Jim.

 

[mickoo]

It is possible. The North Side Blue Train services had started in November 1960 but the stock had to be withdrawn from service shortly after the start because of problems with transformers blowing up.

Jim.

The issue I believe was down to the 6.25Kv tapping, as far as I know, Clyde services were the only route to use the 6.25/25Kv change over in stations and I believe it was also briefly tested on the Colchester/Clacton branch and the Style loop in Manchester, but Clydeside was the only operational route. I've a niggle in the back of my mind that the GE around Liverpool Street/Stratford may have been 6.25Kv as well but I can't find my source to confirm or deny that, I think they may have gone straight from 1500V DC to 25Kv with the planned 6.25Kv sections simply not required.

The fact that the transformer was in a cubicle inside the passenger area didn't help matters when they blew, I believe there were some serious injuries, maybe even a death.

The solution was to remove the 6.25Kv tap feed and trackside detection gear, new tolerances for insulation and clearances were worked up. The OHLE was revised accordingly and the units returned to service once those civil works had been completed.

The OHLE revisions were incorporated into the WCML works and other electrification projects and new units arrived with the system isolated or removed, all the AL1-5 locos had the system isolated and later removed.

Contrary to common writings in popular books, the two pantographs on AL1-5 are not one for 6.25Kv and one for 25Kv, they are both on the same bus feed and are electrically as one. The two pantographs were an effort to reduce potential arc eye for drivers, later found to not be an issue, directives dictated the rear pantograph should be used where possible and whilst traveling at night.

 

[MoatLane]

Parts of the London, Tilbury & Southend were originally electrified at 6.25 kV, with the first EMUs being dual-voltage 25 kV.

 

[JimG]

The issue I believe was down to the 6.25Kv tapping, as far as I know, Clyde services were the only route to use the 6.25/25Kv change over in stations and I believe it was also briefly tested on the Colchester/Clacton branch and the Style loop in Manchester, but Clydeside was the only operational route. I've a niggle in the back of my mind that the GE around Liverpool Street/Stratford may have been 6.25Kv as well but I can't find my source to confirm or deny that, I think they may have gone straight from 1500V DC to 25Kv with the planned 6.25Kv sections simply not required.

The fact that the transformer was in a cubicle inside the passenger area didn't help matters when they blew, I believe there were some serious injuries, maybe even a death.

The solution was to remove the 6.25Kv tap feed and trackside detection gear, new tolerances for insulation and clearances were worked up. The OHLE was revised accordingly and the units returned to service once those civil works had been completed.

BloodandCustard.com - AM3 Glasgow Blue Trains

Jim.

PS. Sorry Brian for the diversion.

 

[mickoo]

BloodandCustard.com - AM3 Glasgow Blue Trains

Jim.

PS. Sorry Brian for the diversion.

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