Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

Sheds
60033 new to traffic Kings Cross 28/6/38, Grantham 23/4/44, Kings X 21/3/48, withdrawn 29/12/62
61364 new to traffic Lincoln 19/4/50, New England 20/9/53, Kings Cross 13/2/55, New England 3/6/62, withdrawn 16/9/62.
60021 new to traffic Kings Cross 19/2/38, , Doncaster 4/5/39, Kings X 17/8/41, Grantham 2/10/43, Kings X 13/8/44, Grantham 21/3/48,
Kings X 4/6/50, New England 16/6/63, withdrawn 20/10/63.

All info from Yeadon.

Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Never mind the locomotive - look at that Quad art set! View attachment 170551View attachment 170551View attachment 170551View attachment 170551

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
Going back to 42500, since I've just pulled the book off the shelf for another reason, allocations are a bit odd in the early days.
Watford Junction 21/4/34 - 23/5/36
Plaistow (on loan) 23/5/36 - 27/6/36
Tilbury (on loan) 27/6/36 - 25/7/36
Plaistow 25/7/36 - 28/9/40
Leicester 28/9/40 - 30/11/40
Shoeburyness 30/11/40 - 18/6/62 withdrawn.

The two periods of a month on loan to LTS sheds is a bit odd, but two months in Leicester seems strange in the extreme. No doubt if I read the book fully it will be explained.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the extra info yet again, Martin. Sort of makes the record complete!

Double bubble today as we have the chaps in laying the new dining room floor so I can't easily get out of the lounge. Fortunately I have my laptop with me.

Still on the ECML. (BTW, please forgive the repeats in the descriptions of location and date. I use the info I put with each of the photos as the basis of the data I attach to the photos and I can copy and paste).

A1 Pacific 60125 Scottish Union down light at Potters Bar on 9th July 1960. From 1958 it had been a Doncaster engine and was withdrawn from there in early July 1964. (BR Database and SLS). It went from Doncaster to Cox & Danks, Wadsley Bridge where it was disposed of by the end of August the same year. (Rail UK). The SLS record it as still stored at Doncaster in October 1964 so the info on BR Database which advises it as sold to Cox and Danks rather than scrapped in August may be correct.



Here's an unknown B1 on an up named express at Potters Bar on 9th July 1960. Regrettably we know neither the loco number nor the name of the train. Note one of they there new fangled diesel units on the slow line.



A2 60508 Duke of Rothesay on a down express at Potters Bar on 9th July 1960. It had been a New England loco since 1950 and remained there until withdrawal in February 1961. (BR Database and SLS). The SLS further reports that the loco was at Doncaster on 20th February 1961 for "No repairs" so perhaps it had arrived for some repairs but was in such a state that repairs were uneconomic. It was cut up at Doncaster Works by the end of the same month.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

60125 new to traffic Doncaster 22/4/49. Copley Hill 4/6/50, Grantham 15/2/53, Copley Hill 7/6/53, Grantham 2/5/54, Kings X 16/6/57, Doncaster 6/1/58, withdrawn 4/7/64 sold to Cox & Danks 8/64.

60508 new to traffic Doncaster 30/6/44, Kings X 25/11/44, Gorton 10/2/45, Kings X 28/3/45, New England 4/6/50. I can't help thinking that eleven years as the Peterborough pilot doesn't reflect too well on it, I note that it had eight general overhauls in that period so it was either doing a prodigious mileage which given it's allocation doesn't sem likely, or something was needing fixed far too often. Unfortunately I don't have any mileage info to back my assertion but I do wonder whether something fundamental happened at the New Southgate accident which effectively precluded it's general ECML use from thereon.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for providing the history again, Martin. Duly added to the records.

Still on the ECML.

V2 60924 on a down freight crosses A3 60065 Knight of Thistle on an up passenger at Potters Bar on 9th July 1960. According to the SLS 60924 was an Inverness loco from 1948 until April 1962 when it was reallocated to Doncaster which must have made a viewing this far south quite a coup. It was withdrawn in September 1963 and broken up at Doncaster Works in November the same year. (SLS) 60065 was a Grantham engine and hopped around a bit before ending it's days at New England where it was withdrawn in June 1964. (Trough deflectors were not fitted until the end of November 1961). (SLS). It then went to A King & Sons at Norwich where it was scrapped in the following August. (Rail UK).



Still at Potters Bar on 9th July 1960 and 60014 Silver Link passes. In 1960 it was a Kings Cross engine being withdrawn from there in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster in January 1963. (BR Database).



60046 Diamond Jubilee on an up Hull at Potters Bar on 9th July 1960. At the time it was a Grantham engine and stayed at Grantham with a spell at New England. It was withdrawn from Grantham in June 1963. Trough deflectors were fitted in October 1961. It was seen at Doncaster in August 1963. (SLS) It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in August 1963. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

60924 an Inverness loco Brian, are you sure? Given that Inverness was a Highland Railway shed which became part of the LMS in 1923 I would be most surprised if an LNER engines was allocated there. Yeadon has 60924 new at Kings X 22/11/41, New England 21/11/42, Doncaster 29/4/62 until withdrawal. I can find no reference to an LNER engine ever having been shedded at Inverness, the nearest LNER sheds at Keith and Kittybrewster had none either. Ferryhill had loads of them although never as far as I can tell 60924. It did have 60824 which lasted at least two years longer than 924, unlikely confusion I think.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Firstly, Martin, I really love a detective novel! Your message sets up another correction! And no, I'm by no means sure about Inverness. Again, secondary sources come in to play.

To start with the loco is definitely 60924. The next shot on the film is of the same loco from the rear but it needs a rescan which I haven't got to yet but the number is eminently readable. 60924 is shown at 32A, Inverness, on the SLS record on BR Database. However, from what I can see 32A was Norwich from 1950 until 1973. So the question for me is, how did Norwich become Inverness, 60A? I can't answer that question, but is Norwich a more likely location, being deep in GER country?

Doncaster was 36A so a straight transcription error seems most likely. But I still fail to see how 32A became Inverness.

So glad I quote the sources. So sorry I don't dig further in to potentially obvious errors!

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

32A was the LMS code for Inverness, someone has misread a hastily scribbled 35A as 32A, which would have given the wrong shed anyway and then compounded the problem by using the LMS codes instead of the BR ones so transplanting the loco to northern Scotland. I think it more likely that the SLS record pre dates the locos move to Doncaster, wrong as it is anyway.. As far as I can see Norwich didn't have any V2s allocated so I think my info re 60924 in post #1568 is most likely. It would be unlikely for an engine allocated to Norwich to trundling along the GN main line at Potter's Bar, wouldn't it? I believe in this case both the Database and the SLS have got this wrong, I can find no shred of evidence to support an ex LNER express goods engine allocated to a former LMS shed in northern Scotland for 14 years.
Regards
Martin

 

[mickoo]

I don't recall V2's at Norwich, but then it's not a shed I'm up to speed with, they did frequent March with goods trains from hither and thither.

One thing for sure, that looks very much like an up fish train, therefore I'd expect engines from the Hull or Grimsby area with a probably change at New England, I'm not sure if freight engines changed at Grantham, passengers ones most certainly did but I've no memory of freight doing the same. The fish trains ran at a higher speed (65 mph I believe, happy to be educated otherwise) so the V2 with it's larger drivers would have been handy, in later years A4's were often used on fish trains.

Fish trains ran from Lowestoft and Gt Yarmouth but they went via the GEML and were powered by more local varieties of freight engine.

 

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

According to 'Shed by Shed' 924 was allocated to New England from 8/50 to 5/62 so corroborating the info supplied by Martin.

Tim

 

[Dave Holt]

Also shown in the 1959 Ian Allan BR Locomotives & Locoshed Book as being 34E - New England.
Dave.

 

[Paul Cram]

According to Yeadon she was at New England from 21/11/42 to 29/4/62 when she went to Doncaster.

 

[Dog Star]

Re the question of a V2 at Norwich... one might not consider this to be a primary source and I am happy if peeps consider that this post is not of significance.

Go back to 1975 and the S&DR celebrations centred on Shildon. Someone, somehow, had arranged for the volunteers responsible for the heritage locos to be barracked at Teeside airport, probably ex-RAF facilities. Along with the sleeping accomodation there was a canteen where all present could have breakfast before getting on the "Shildon special" DMU working to the exhibition site. I was there at that time - as a GWS volunteer with Cookham Manor - and the recent V2 discussions brought to mind a breakfast time discussion with Bill Harvey (ex BR steam man and Norwich Shedmaster) - Bill was telling all and sundry about his time with V2 Green Arrow when that loco was at Norwich. See this Wiki page.

regards, Graham

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you all for correcting the erroneous info about location of the V2. There are a few occasions where Tim photographed engines miles away from their home sheds - and made a note of it - but this is not one of them! It's taught me yet another lesson. If the info looks wrong then it probably is and needs further investigation.

As for your addition about Green Arrow at Shildon, Graham, (I was one of the audience!) and the Green Arrow/Bill Harvey/Norwich tales I for one am very happy about occasional diversions. Please keep 'em coming.

Rather a bumper bundle today, to complete this short foray on the ECML before we travel to Scotland.

A1 Pacific 60156 Great Central on a down Glasgow at Potters Bar on 9th July 1960. From April 1959 until February 1964 this was a Doncaster engine, moving to York and withdrawal in May 1965. (SLS). By the end of June 1965 it was scrapped at Clayton & Davie, Dunston-on-Tyne. (Rail UK).



B1 61158 on a down outer suburban at Potters Bar on 9th July 1960. It had been a Doncaster engine from 1953 from where it was withdrawn in April 1966. In January 1966 it was seen at Crewe South Shed carrying a Doncaster shed plate. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen's, Kettering, in the following month.



A3 60102 Sir Frederick Banbury on an up extra at Potters Bar on 9th July 1960. It was a Grantham engine at the time, moving to Kings Cross at the end of October 1960 for just over a year, being withdrawn in November 1961. (SLS). Interestingly (or not) the disposal date of 14th November 1961 is the same as the withdrawal date.



And here's Green Arrow itself - V2 60800 on a down fast at Potters Bar on 9th July 1960. It was a Kings Cross engine for years being withdrawn from there in August 1962. Its life in preservation as part of the National Collection is well documented elsewhere.



Finally for today A4 60003 Andrew K McCosh on a down Leeds at Potters Bar on 9th July 1960. It had been a Kings Cross engine since 1957 and was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster in January 1963. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

60156 To traffic new Kings X 19/10/49, Grantham 9/9/51, Kings X 16/9/56, rest as per Brian
61158 To traffic new Gorton 14/5/47, Doncaster 18/10/53
60102 to traffic new Doncaster10/7/22 and therefore a proper GN engine, Grantham 12/12/32, Doncaster 5/5/33, Doncaster works 8/9/42 for rebuilding to A3 and returned to traffic Doncaster 16/10/42, Grantham 1/7/43, New England 30/4/44, Grantham 11/10/44, Leicester Cen 16/5/49, Neasden 4/7/54, Leicester Cen 21/11/54, Kings X 1/9/57, Doncaster 13/10/57, Grantham 14/6/59, Kings X 19/10/60. It fairly got about.
60800 To traffic new 13/6/36. As Brian mentions it was a Kings X engine all its life apart from a month at Woodford in 1953, why I have no idea but others of the class crop up there for short periods as well.
60003 new to Heaton 12/8/37 for 5 months and thereafter alternated between Grantham and Kings X aprt from two short spells at Doncaster for works.

A pretty boring collection of statistics I acknowledge but part of the picture I guess.
Martin

 

[Dog Star]

Brian,

Whatever one thinks of the accuracy of Wiki (or otherwise, probably not a subject for consideration on WT), the Wiki entry for Green Arrow provides information on the life of the engine after withdrawal... including the comment that Green Arrow was moved to Norwich in January 1972 for restoration. Green Arrow remained at Norwich until July 1973.

 

[oldravendale]

Hi Graham.

I don't think I suggested that the info you provided about Green Arrow was anything other than further grist for the mill and I, for one, an always delighted to see additional first hand stories to attach to these photos. More, please.

Brian

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Never mind the locomotive - look at that Quad art set! View attachment 170551View attachment 170551View attachment 170551View attachment 170551

I wonder if it's a Quint art set ? which was more normal out of Liverpool St. A bit hard to tell as the arse end is at an angle which could hide the fifth coach.
Col.

 

[Osgood]

I wonder if it's a Quint art set ? ……

On closer inspection it looks like there might be five running boards - and yes Kings Cross was more Quads wasn’t it.
So I was one banana short of a full consist……..