Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

Brian,

The photographs are what we all look forward to , so stick with the sources you use already, there are plenty of us on here to further research the info.

Tim

 

[Martin Shaw]

I would wholly agree with Tim, you can only use information available to you, and if doubt exists and it almost certainly will, so be it. If we at 60 years after the event are uncertain about the minutia of the british steam locomotive, how important will it be in another 100 years time, not very I would think. Dinnae fash yersel, as they say in these parts.
Martin

 

[Lyndhurstman]

I found these articles published in 2009/10/13 in The Railway Magazine very interesting. It would appear that WHTS series are subject to significant errors.

ESS Articles - What Really Happened to Steam

To assist readers we have reproduced all the articles as they appeared in The Railway Magazine and the Engine Shed Society magazine Link as Adobe PDF files

www.whatreallyhappenedtosteam.co.uk

all the best
Tim

In my experience, WRHTS themselves are prone to errors, too. I have photographs of No. 33 (ex-Departmental at Stratford, formerly 68129). standing on the Blackwall line, right outside the premises of A. King & Co., Norwich, who had taken over the yard old GNR warehouse at Blackwall for breaking purposes. But WRHTS wouldn’t countenance that she hadn’t been scrapped at Norwich, instead of a few hundred yards further east.

Cheers

Jan

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Tim, Martin and Jan for your comments which make me feel a great deal better about publishing information which we have to now suspect may, on occasion, be incorrect. I'll be grateful for all and additional info as corrections and discussion points and these comments rather reinforce my belief that it's the pictures which are important together with the dates when those have been recorded. If I hit another nerve (like a Royal Scot at Nine Elms!) please let me know. I have, nevertheless, kept details of all the references so that the possible variety of data is available, should we want to dig.

We're still kicking around the North West of London for a bit before we get on to some exciting photographs on the GE around Bethnal Green - but you'll have to wait for a couple of posts before I get to those.

First a portrait. This is Grange 6803 Buckleberry Grange with small tender (can someone tell me the proper title for it?) at Old Oak on 18th February 1961. We last saw this in post #1510 so I'll not repeat the details here.



One of Tim's "not so good" shots but with some lineside detail which may be of interest. This is Princess Coronation 46247 City of Liverpool at Kilburn High Road on an Up Extra on 18th February 1961. I believe it was at Carlisle Kingmoor from June 1961 (SLS) and have nothing for the allocation in February although I suspect it was a Camden engine at the time. It was ultimately withdrawn from Kingmoor in May 1963 (SLS) and was scrapped by the end of July 1963 at Crewe Works. (Rail UK).



Finally Royal Scot 46119 Lancashire Fusilier at Kilburn High Road on an Up Blackpool on 18th February 1961. It was an Edge Hill loco from early November 1958 and was withdrawn from there in November 1963. It was recorded in the Paint Shop Yard at Crewe on 15th November 1963. (SLS). It was disposed of at Crewe Works by the end of the month. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

Regarding the GWR tender, it will be either a 3500 or a 3000 [not Dean] gallon one. The latter were introduced with the the Bulldog class and the former introduced in 1904 though the frames were latterley modified to give a gentler curve by the cutout where the axleboxes are attached to the frames. The tender in the picture doesn't have the modified frames . So most likely a non-Dean 3000 gallon one.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
I can confirm 46247 was a Camden engine from building right through to it's transfer to Kingmoor, by contrast 46119 changed sheds on an almost annual basis although practically it doodled around the main line sheds at the southern half of the WCML, it's furthest north allocations being Edge Hill and Longsight, with six weeks at Carlisle Upperby during the war. I am currently reading Roland Bond's autobiography again, he comments "6170 British Legion as rebuilt by Stanier, became the forerunner of the taper boilered Royal Scots, one of the best locomotives ever to run on our railways", possibly arguable but all the commentators I have read and my own footplate experiences with Scots Guardsman would certainly back that up.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the info about the GWR tender, Arun. Also, Martin, the confirmation about 46247 and additional stuff about 46119. Both are much appreciated.

Here's 8F 48036 at Kilburn High Road on a Down Freight on 18th February 1961. In 1961 it was a Willesden engine and after travelling around a bit ended up at Northwich in April 1967. It was withdrawn in March 1968. (SLS). It went to Cohens at Kettering where it was broken up during July 1968. (BR Database).



In the same location of Kilburn High Road on 18th February 1961 is Black 5 45146 on a down fitted freight. This belonged to Bescot in 1961, went to Stoke in March 1963 and was withdrawn from there in June 1965. (SLS). It was disposed of at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, by the end of December 1965. (BR Database).



Here's original un-named Patriot 45551 at Kilburn High Road on a Down Wolverhampton train on 18th February 1961. In early 1961 it was still a Willesden engine but at the beginning of July was transferred to Edge Hill. It was withdrawn in June 1962. (SLS). Disposal took place at Crewe Works in October. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[chigley]

Brian , at the end of the day we enjoy looking at the photo's, if somebody wishes to add a commentary to them
it's up to them. ps enjoyed talking to you at stafford, roll on kettering.

Ken

 

[Martin Shaw]

Not too much to add, 48036 was balanced for higher speeds so had a star on the cabside, 45146 from 19/1/46 had one of the three prototype Stanier 4000 gallon tenders, 45551 from 2/5/58 had a straight high sided tender and it was stored at Edge Hill from16/11/61 until withdrawal. It was numerically the last Patriot and of the 52 locomotives all bar 9 were scrapped by the railway, predominantly at Crewe but 2 at Horwich in early 63 I suspect to provide some work there.
Regards
Martin

 

[SimonT]

Brian,
the Grange tender is a Collett 3000G tender. The coal load looks like most would be dumped on the road!

Simon

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Ken. You'll see that I'm continuing as normal! Much appreciated our chat at Stafford too. Apologies for the poor hearing.

Martin. Lots of lovely extras there, duly added to the descriptions with thanks. These comments help to build a bigger picture than I'm able to.

Thanks for your description of the tender, Simon. If there was someone who'd give me the official answer it was you. Added to the info.

We're staying North West of London for today. We'll move East for the next one.....

First a portrait. Edited to correct details. This is Fairburn 2-6-4T 42234 at Willesden on 18th February 1961. We'll start at the end, because I have a photo of this loco being scrapped at Willesden in October 1964. As far as I can establish the responsible party is unknown but it may well have been BR staff or even, perhaps, shed staff. BR Database advises its last shed as Rugby (I suppose it could have been visiting Willesden from Rugby when Tim's photo was taken). SLS gives the last allocation as Longsight. However, Rail UK advises the final allocation as Willesden and withdrawal in February 1964. WHTS advises that the loco was in store at Willesden from January to October 1964 and there were several sightings during that period.



Willesden with a Loco Group in the Round House on 18th February 1961. I think there's a rebuilt Jubilee, an 8F and a Black 5 to be seen - there may be alternative descriptions. Nonetheless, an atmospheric shot, redolent of the time.



Inside Willesden Roundhouse again and Ivatt 2-6-2T 41222 under repair on 18th February 1961. It was a Bletchley engine for a long while and had possibly travelled to Willesden for this service - I saw other Bletchley engines at Willesden under repair from time to time. It went to Carlisle Upperby in January 1965, then to Kingmoor on the last day of 1966 where it was immediately withdrawn. (SLS). It also went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge and was scrapped by the end of April 1966, coincidentally possibly alongside 42334. (Rail UK).



Finally for today in Willesden and outside the roundhouse three locos wrongly detailed as 73052, 73030, 6114 on 18th February 1961. In fact they are 75052, 75030 and 46114, Coldstream Guardsman. All three locos were living at Willesden at the time and then, in turn, 75052 ended up at Stoke in June 1967 and was withdrawn in August (SLS) going to Birds at Long Marston where it was scrapped by the end of February 1968. (BR Database). 75030 was at Tebay from June 1967 being withdrawn in December. (SLS) Destruction occurred at Arnott Young, Carmyle in July 1968. (BR Database). 46114 was one of the unfortunates that ended up on the GCR and is recorded by Rail UK as being withdrawn from Annesley at the end of September 1963. It went to Slag Reduction Company for scrap. The job was complete by the end of April 1964. (Rail UK). At Stafford I was asked why the Scots are listed as being shedded at Annesley, a freight shed when, at the time, Leicester GCR shed was still open (it closed in July 64 - Neasden closed in June 1962 so it would not have been allocated there). Willesden took over GCR steam duties when Neasden closed so would be a potential location. The answer is I don't know, and I'd be interested to hear any suggestions.

All the sources are quoted above but based on past experience, particularly with the Scot, are subject to correction.....


Brian

 

[LarryG]

First picture, a typo probably as it is a Fairburn Tank, not Fowler. The Slag Reduction company tickled my sense of humour.....I was thinking of the Bulleids....

 

[oldravendale]

Ah. You know what, Larry, I took Tim's quoted number as correct and it's not. The loco is 42234 not 42334. I'm rather a silly billy as I wrote the entry initially calling it a Fairburn and then, having looked the number up, incorrectly corrected it. I actually had a side comment about how much I liked the Fairburns for their purposeful design (they worked the Aylesbury trains from Rickmansworth for several years after the L1s were consigned to the scrapheap by the LMR.) So I'll now edit the duff info about the photo to correct it....

Even more embarrassingly I, personally, took a photo of the loco being dismembered at Willesden Shed on 15th November 1964. It was withdrawn "after an accident". (Rail UK)



Thanks for taking the trouble.

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

I have amended the list of Royal Scots in my post #1529. I have now established from published information that there were 13 Scots at Annesley over an 2.5 year period, the ones added are 01 and 56 which I missed from the Irwell book and 22 which I found reported elsewhere. I can find no reference to 14 ever having been there, again that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't. It was as Brian says at Willesden in 63 so may well have been allocated to GC services but that doesn't fit quite so well with my thinking on matters.

At the grouping the GC could equally as well have become part of the LMS rather than the LNER which it actually did. I don't think it sits comfortsbly with either of them. As it was the line was transferred from the ER to the LMR in 1958 for I suspect political and economic reasons rather than any real railway reason. I don't suppose the LMR wanted it any more than the ER but in respect of motive power the ER quite naturally had all their A3s back from Leicester GC and Neasden which provided the bulk of locos for the express work. The LM made a conscious decision that their own electrification of the WCML wasn't going to be put at economic risk by traffic being extracted by the GC and I think the LM pursued their deliberate policy of running down the GC for this reason, albeit probably not spoken about as such.

It seems logical that as the early 60s progressed the reduction in traffic afforded other useful benefits, Neasden suffered greatly in getting staff and certainly in ER days Kings Cross loaned men so it's earlyish closure was welcomed. Leicester GC shed only supplied locos for the GC and with a marked reduction in passenger services it became a possibility for closure, the freight would be covered from Woodford and Annesley and when it became necessary to find some passenger locos due to closure taking longer, surplus tatty Royal Scots were drafted in, the choice of Annesley rather than Leicester is I think political in so much as allocating engines there rather spoils the argument for closure of the shed a, and I suspect space at the London end of things may have been a bit tighter especially as Willesden was to become the home for AC locos and Camden eventually closing.

I should stress that this is a personal view of things rather than any historical report so take it as that alone.

Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Hello again Martin.

Thanks for your advice re two more Scots, and also the questioning of the allocations of 46114. I've done some more digging about the later allocations and withdrawal information of 46114. Every source comes up with a different answer and as none of them are primary I'll just list them here.

BR Database advises that it became a Willesden engine (again) on 22nd June 1963 and then went to Annesley for just one week, between 14th and 21st September 1963. It then came back to Willesden and a week later went to Nottingham (16D) where it was immediately withdrawn. There's a further summary, however, which advises that the loco was allocated to Willesden from 22nd June 1963, then to Annesley 14th to 21st September before returning to Willesden being condemned there and not Nottingham on 28th September, but reallocated to Nottingham on the same date and scrapped in April 1964 although there's no info about where.

The SLS says it was at Willesden from 6th July 1963, was withdrawn from there on 28th September but was then allocated to Annesley on 12th October 1963!

Rail UK advises the final shed as Annesley, withdrawal on 28th September 1963 and thence to Slag Reduction Company, Rotherham where it was scrapped by 30th April 1964.

In the case of this loco I rather favour WHTS. This advises withdrawal on 28th September 1963 as reported by the SLS in November 1963, then stored at Willesden from November 1963 until February 1964 (but where was it in October? I suspect it was withdrawn from Willesden although this is not stated.) It was then observed at Staveley (Barrow Hill) on 6th April 1964 in transit from Willesden to Rotherham and final disposal at Slag Reduction where it was seen on 23rd April.

So pick the bones out of that!

Your comments about the GCR rather mirror my own views. However, it's a situation we now know was replicated on any number of other lines throughout the country where the traffic flows and services were engineered such that the traffic went away and closure became inevitable. Bearing in mind the vast increase in demand for passenger services that was, as seems to be inevitable in the UK, a very short term decision. Why were track beds not simply mothballed? (I can give you an accountancy answer to that, but it still doesn't deal with the situation in which we now find ourselves with very little in the way of secondary or alternative routes when whole lines are shut down "for maintenance").

Rant over!

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Moving on to a few shots I find quite exciting (there will be more to come in the future) before we return to the ECML.

Bethnal Green with N7 69653 on a Down Local on 9th July 1960. As far as I can establish it was a Stratford engine for its entire life - at least certainly since 1948. (BR Database). It was withdrawn at the beginning of May 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Stratford Works by the end of the same month (Rail UK).



Stanier 3-cylinder 2-6-4T 42500 at Fenchurch St on a down Tilbury on 9th July 1960. It was based at Shoeburyness for the whole of its working life. It was withdrawn in mid June 1962 (BR Database) and became part of the National Collection. The last I saw it was at York. (Preserved British Steam Locomotives).



Here's 42500 again on the same date as above but photographed on a down Tilbury at Barking.



Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

Prior to restoration/repainting/movement to NRM, 42500 was stored in Derby Works. It was certainly present, though partially shrouded by tarpaulins, at the DW Open Day on 31 Aug 64. I actually took a rather poor photograph of it that day and wondered why the loco wasn't in my combined volume! It was of course but rather under its LMS number of 2500 in the list of preserved engines.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Complexity writ large Brian, I would agree that 46114 was allocated to Willesden on 21/6/63 and withdrawn on 28/9/63, from where I'm not certain beyond my information says Willesden which I think was it's last shed. If however because the loco had been sold to a company in Rotherham for scrapping maybe there was some accountancy reason for allocating it to Nottingham, that being the nearest LM shed to Rotherham, I can understand that. I'm afraid I don't believe a loco moved allocations for operational reasons for a week, it makes absolutely no sense now, it certainly wouldn't have done 60 years ago.

The other contributing issue is shed codes Annesley was 38B until the 31/1/58 when it became 16D on the LM. It further changed on 1/9/63 when it became 16B, Nottingham (LM) changing from 16A to 16D on the same date. Toton became the parent depot. Colwick, the former GC shed at Nottingham stayed with the ER until Jan 66 when it became 16B when Annesley closed. Probably time to draw a line under Royal Scots on the GC.

Yeadon has 69653 initially at Ardsley 10/25 (confirmed by RCTS), as a loco built externally by R.Stephenson on trials, it very soon went to Kings Cross 11/25 and soon enough to Stratford 10/27 where it did spent the rest of its life.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Arun for an additional snippet about 42500. That's one of my very few primary sources! I'd really like to see that loco running again.

Martin. Once more many thanks for adding to the probabilities about the Scots on the GC. I, for one, find such discussions enlightening and they help to suggest the complexities in obtaining reliable data. I don't really want to draw a line under this because I suspect there is some even more reliable information out there. We've certainly chewed over the possibilities. What I can say, from first hand experience, is that the performance of the Scots on the GC was not their finest by a long way - maintenance was awful and for such a successful class it was a sad time. Mind you, much the same could be said of the Black 5s which soldiered on quite reliably in the North West but which regularly failed in the last years of the GC. Loco reliability was but one nail in the coffin of the GC.

The extra info about the N7 is very welcome. Thanks again. My records, such as they are, rarely extend beyond Nationalisation so such updates on the older classes are always welcome.

Today, doubtless to Mickoo's undiluted joy (!) we are one the ECML and will be for a while.

This is A4 60033 Seagull on an up express at Potters Bar on 9th July 1960. It spent some time at Grantham (I have nothing about allocations before 1948) but in March of that year moved to Kings Cross where it stayed until withdrawal in December 1962. (BR Database & SLS). It was scrapped by the end of January 1963 at Doncaster Works.



B1 4-6-0 61364 on a down Butlins Express at Potters Bar on 9th July 1960. This was also a Kings Cross engine in 1960, moving to New England in June 1962 from where it was withdrawn the following September. (BR Database & SLS). It went to R A Kings of Norwich for disposal which was completed in February 1963.



Another A4 60021 Wild Swan on an up Newcastle at Potters Bar on 9th July 1960. We've seen this loco previously, in post #1385 where details are published.



Brian

 

[Osgood]

Bethnal Green with N7 69653 on a Down Local on 9th July 1960. As far as I can establish it was a Stratford engine for its entire life - at least certainly since 1948. (BR Database). It was withdrawn at the beginning of May 1962. (SLS).……

Never mind the locomotive - look at that Quad art set!