Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
...get them out of the way..... surely not! - to me these are also main stream as it reflected Tim's wider interest - ÖBB to boot.
Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
...get them out of the way..... surely not! - to me these are also main stream as it reflected Tim's wider interest - ÖBB to boot.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks for all the likes for the GCR pictures. I'm somewhat surprised and pleased as it's been a part of my life for more than the last 50 years and it's good to know that Tim's efforts, along with those of so many others are appreciated.
Also, as far as the Austrian Mountain Railway is concerned I really thought that would be a minority interest, but apparently not. If there was anyone on this forum who'd know chapter and verse it's you, Dave. I'm truly not trying to cast nasturtiums and I'll not make any such assumptions in future. You may be delighted to know that some way in the future there will be a set of German photos, some of which are of lovely quality.
We continue with what may well be another minority interest, but it excites my personal interest bubble. These are another few of Tim's Irish photos and any help anyone can give to start to build details about each photo will be appreciated. When everything is scanned and processed Tim has asked that all the Irish negatives go to RPSI, a wish which the family and I will fulfill. These are in a pack of photos identified as "Kings Cross Main Line at W Green Winter 61 - poss Irish Jinty & 2-6-0 Lough Gill shunting" neither of which applies to these. Neither are these of a quality fit for publication - they are underexposed, flat and grainy. However, they are of historical interest which would be much enhanced if we knew the date. Perhaps 1961 is correct. I've checked Great Northern Railway (Ireland) but find it difficult to use. In fact, what I really need is a picture book! I've used this site which is of some use - in fact here's a photo by Mike Morant of one of the locos in Tim's photos Irish railway archive GNR - MikeMorant so we can be pretty sure about the description there. I'm personally particularly interested in the 0-6-0 with the outside frame tender but it's carrying no number, has plates removed and is likely in line for scrap. There may be a clue in that these locos with the exception of the outside frame tender all seem to have a GNR insignia so the photos are likely on the cusp of GNR(I) becoming a constituent of UTA which makes the date of these probably around 1958.
So, here goes.
The first two are of the same loco and the number is just about not readable - at least with any certainty. However, having looked at Mike Morants pictures I believe it's an LQG class 0-6-0. These were built as NLQG by Naysmith Wilson and rebuilt (superheated) as LQGs.
This one I'm not certain about. I'm questioning whether it's a PG class but it has a straight handrail on the smokebox door rather than a curved one. I don't know whether this was a simple variation within the class or identifies a different class of loco. There are other differences too, so I'm pretty confident this is not a PG. A number would have been helpful.
I'd like to identify this one. It carries a UTA symbol on the tender so I guess must have transferred in 1958 and been repainted and perhaps overhauled. It looks to be of a "certain vintage" so I'd date it as likely very late 19th century or perhaps it's simply been paired with an old tender.
This one we know about as Mike Morant photographed it. It's a PG class 0-6-0 no. 100 still with the GNR signage on the tender. Does the cross on the tender indicate withdrawal? This loco was called Clones in GNR days. However, Mike Morant refers to his photo of No 100 carrying a cross on the tender so perhaps it has no significance. Mike's photo also shows a "UT" on the buffer beam and although difficult to confirm it looks as though there's a UTA badge on the tender so perhaps Tim's photo predates Mikes.
Back to more regular fare next, on the ECML although once again quality is not top notch.
Brian
Edit... Just found this site which may provide some answers. I'll need to study it first. GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY (IRELAND) STEAM LOCOMOTIVES AND RAILCARS. - Paul Johnson
Also, as far as the Austrian Mountain Railway is concerned I really thought that would be a minority interest, but apparently not. If there was anyone on this forum who'd know chapter and verse it's you, Dave. I'm truly not trying to cast nasturtiums and I'll not make any such assumptions in future. You may be delighted to know that some way in the future there will be a set of German photos, some of which are of lovely quality.
We continue with what may well be another minority interest, but it excites my personal interest bubble. These are another few of Tim's Irish photos and any help anyone can give to start to build details about each photo will be appreciated. When everything is scanned and processed Tim has asked that all the Irish negatives go to RPSI, a wish which the family and I will fulfill. These are in a pack of photos identified as "Kings Cross Main Line at W Green Winter 61 - poss Irish Jinty & 2-6-0 Lough Gill shunting" neither of which applies to these. Neither are these of a quality fit for publication - they are underexposed, flat and grainy. However, they are of historical interest which would be much enhanced if we knew the date. Perhaps 1961 is correct. I've checked Great Northern Railway (Ireland) but find it difficult to use. In fact, what I really need is a picture book! I've used this site which is of some use - in fact here's a photo by Mike Morant of one of the locos in Tim's photos Irish railway archive GNR - MikeMorant so we can be pretty sure about the description there. I'm personally particularly interested in the 0-6-0 with the outside frame tender but it's carrying no number, has plates removed and is likely in line for scrap. There may be a clue in that these locos with the exception of the outside frame tender all seem to have a GNR insignia so the photos are likely on the cusp of GNR(I) becoming a constituent of UTA which makes the date of these probably around 1958.
So, here goes.
The first two are of the same loco and the number is just about not readable - at least with any certainty. However, having looked at Mike Morants pictures I believe it's an LQG class 0-6-0. These were built as NLQG by Naysmith Wilson and rebuilt (superheated) as LQGs.
This one I'm not certain about. I'm questioning whether it's a PG class but it has a straight handrail on the smokebox door rather than a curved one. I don't know whether this was a simple variation within the class or identifies a different class of loco. There are other differences too, so I'm pretty confident this is not a PG. A number would have been helpful.
I'd like to identify this one. It carries a UTA symbol on the tender so I guess must have transferred in 1958 and been repainted and perhaps overhauled. It looks to be of a "certain vintage" so I'd date it as likely very late 19th century or perhaps it's simply been paired with an old tender.
This one we know about as Mike Morant photographed it. It's a PG class 0-6-0 no. 100 still with the GNR signage on the tender. Does the cross on the tender indicate withdrawal? This loco was called Clones in GNR days. However, Mike Morant refers to his photo of No 100 carrying a cross on the tender so perhaps it has no significance. Mike's photo also shows a "UT" on the buffer beam and although difficult to confirm it looks as though there's a UTA badge on the tender so perhaps Tim's photo predates Mikes.
Back to more regular fare next, on the ECML although once again quality is not top notch.
Brian
Edit... Just found this site which may provide some answers. I'll need to study it first. GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY (IRELAND) STEAM LOCOMOTIVES AND RAILCARS. - Paul Johnson
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Renovater
Western Thunderer
A baby deltic ?You've missed the class 40 lurking in the fuel shed next to the running lines.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
A good possibility but I'm not sure, looks like oval buffers and flat bottom to the nose, baby Deltic's at that time had a bright red buffer beam that extended up about 12-18" on the nose, even when filthy the tonal change is obvious.
Tough call, I'd stick with class 40 personally, to me it has that 40 look over the more rounded and squat 23.
Renovater
Western Thunderer
You're most probably right. It was the single sun shade down that made me think that.
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Overseer
Western Thunderer
First 2 photos are of a GNR QLG class, probably number 165. (UTA 165X but may not have actually had the X painted on)
Third photo is a GNR SG or SG2 class (they look the same). 5'1" wheels.
Fourth photo is NCC V1 class, probably number 15. V1 class were originally V class, built in 1923, rebuilt with LMS G6S boilers in 1951.
Fifth photo, PG 100, the X was used by UTA for locos it didn't consider worth renumbering. They stayed in service until a heavy repair was required.
Focalplane
Western Thunderer
Brian, if I may add my 2 cents, minority interests are a major part of our WT community. Keep it up! Paul
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks for further thoughts, Renovator and Mick. I guess a Baby Deltic is a possibility but I'll stick with Mickoo on this one.
Fraser - that is just so helpful. May I ask - is the info from your personal knowledge or a publication? I'm familiar with and have a few books about the railways of the south of Ireland, particularly the GS&W - what a beautiful railway that was - but very little about the railways of the north.
And Paul - thanks for confirming what I've always found on WT. This is a site for the esoteric as well as the main stream.
Anyway, for today and as promised we're on the ECML with some images of varying quality but nonetheless worth a viewing.
These are the real Wood Green in the Winter of 1961. I read the smokebox number plate as A3 60065 Knight of Thistle on a van train. In 1961 it belonged to Grantham and met its demise at New England at the end of June 1964. (BR Database and SLS). It went to A King and Sons of Norwich where it was scrapped by the end of August. (Rail UK)
Passing Wood Green Box in the winter of 1961. It's an unidentified A1 on a named Pullman train, but I don't know which one - the subject movement leads to a blurred image.
This is 9F 92180 at Wood Green in the winter of 1961. BR Database and the SLS show the loco being at New England until January 1965 when it moved to Langwith Junction. It remained there until withdrawal in April the same year and went to Drapers in Hull for scrapping which was completed in July the same year.
Finally another A3 at Wood Green, Winter 1961. I believe this to be 60049, Galtee More, a Grantham engine withdrawn from there at the tail end of 1962. (BR Database and SLS). It was appropriately despatched at Doncaster in early April 1963. (Rail UK).
Brian
Fraser - that is just so helpful. May I ask - is the info from your personal knowledge or a publication? I'm familiar with and have a few books about the railways of the south of Ireland, particularly the GS&W - what a beautiful railway that was - but very little about the railways of the north.
And Paul - thanks for confirming what I've always found on WT. This is a site for the esoteric as well as the main stream.
Anyway, for today and as promised we're on the ECML with some images of varying quality but nonetheless worth a viewing.
These are the real Wood Green in the Winter of 1961. I read the smokebox number plate as A3 60065 Knight of Thistle on a van train. In 1961 it belonged to Grantham and met its demise at New England at the end of June 1964. (BR Database and SLS). It went to A King and Sons of Norwich where it was scrapped by the end of August. (Rail UK)
Passing Wood Green Box in the winter of 1961. It's an unidentified A1 on a named Pullman train, but I don't know which one - the subject movement leads to a blurred image.
This is 9F 92180 at Wood Green in the winter of 1961. BR Database and the SLS show the loco being at New England until January 1965 when it moved to Langwith Junction. It remained there until withdrawal in April the same year and went to Drapers in Hull for scrapping which was completed in July the same year.
Finally another A3 at Wood Green, Winter 1961. I believe this to be 60049, Galtee More, a Grantham engine withdrawn from there at the tail end of 1962. (BR Database and SLS). It was appropriately despatched at Doncaster in early April 1963. (Rail UK).
Brian
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mickoo
Western Thunderer
The A1 Pullman is 'The Queen of Scots'.
The engine looks like it has a smooth sided tender so would be in the 60130 - 152 range with smooth sided tender. It's not 136, 141, 142, 145 or 146 as they had all lost their electric lights and dynamo by then, there are probably others, I've not looked that hard TBH.
The Queen of Scots changed engines at Leeds, Copey Hill and Kings X shared diagrams south of Leeds, predominately Copey Hill though, Kings X was ad hoc from what I've read., North of Leeds it changed trains at Newcastle and Edinburgh, Haymarket, Heaton and Gateshead all supplied engines over time, Copy Hill probably did too, but they all fall outside the remit of the photograph.
The train actually starts in Glasgow Queen Street before running to Edinburgh and then down the ECML to Newcastle.
In 1960/61 the coaches were strengthened and replaced by new MK1 Pullmans so you'd expect them to be in the rake, it doesn't look like they are, those look like slab sided originals, the headboard does look like The Queen of Scots' so a bit of an anomaly there I'd need to check up.
In 1948/9 BR changed the head board from a single line crescent black lettering on a white background to the double lined polished letters on a black background.
In April 1962, Deltics took over the turns, though steam was still noted on occasion until late Aug 62. The Queen of Scots Pullman lasted until June 64 when it was truncated to Harrogate and renamed the 'White Rose Pullman'.
The engine looks like it has a smooth sided tender so would be in the 60130 - 152 range with smooth sided tender. It's not 136, 141, 142, 145 or 146 as they had all lost their electric lights and dynamo by then, there are probably others, I've not looked that hard TBH.
The Queen of Scots changed engines at Leeds, Copey Hill and Kings X shared diagrams south of Leeds, predominately Copey Hill though, Kings X was ad hoc from what I've read., North of Leeds it changed trains at Newcastle and Edinburgh, Haymarket, Heaton and Gateshead all supplied engines over time, Copy Hill probably did too, but they all fall outside the remit of the photograph.
The train actually starts in Glasgow Queen Street before running to Edinburgh and then down the ECML to Newcastle.
In 1960/61 the coaches were strengthened and replaced by new MK1 Pullmans so you'd expect them to be in the rake, it doesn't look like they are, those look like slab sided originals, the headboard does look like The Queen of Scots' so a bit of an anomaly there I'd need to check up.
In 1948/9 BR changed the head board from a single line crescent black lettering on a white background to the double lined polished letters on a black background.
In April 1962, Deltics took over the turns, though steam was still noted on occasion until late Aug 62. The Queen of Scots Pullman lasted until June 64 when it was truncated to Harrogate and renamed the 'White Rose Pullman'.
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Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Just to fill the gap twixt Newcastle and Kings Cross - The full route was Glasgow Queen Street-Edinburgh-Newcastle-Northallerton South Junction (where it left the ECML)-Ripon-Harrogate-Leeds Central (where the train reversed)-Doncaster (where it rejoined ECML)-London Kings Cross.
I think the calling points were Glasgow Queen Street, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Harrogate, Leeds Central, London Kings Cross. Perhaps someone can confirm as this train doesn't feature in my dad's 1947 LNER timetable. Perhaps this service was re-instated later after WWII.
JimG
Western Thunderer
Way off piste for this thread but I have a memory that on the north-bound run of this train you could enjoy a bit of first class travel on a punter's ticket from Waverley to Glasgow Queen Street when they weren't too fussy about who got on.
I suspect that the train was probably nearly empty by that part of the journey and that Pullman services were not available on the last part.Jim.
Overseer
Western Thunderer
All secondhand information. My main source for these is the 1949 edition of the Ian Allan's ABC of Irish Locomotives. Info on the split up of GNR locos and renumbering comes from Locomotive Compendium Ireland by Colin Boocock (Ian Allan 2009). I don't have the GNR loco book (Colourpoint) which has more detail. My Irish book collection is fairly random, most of the general Irish railway history books, a fair few pictorial books and some line histories. I have most books with any reference to the Dundalk, Newry & Greenore Railway and a fair bit on the LMS NCC, some D&SER and MGWR.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Mick, Dave and Jim. Thanks for the info about the Queen of Scots. All added to the info accompanying the photo.
Dave as in Daifly - thanks for deciphering that number. I reckon you are probably right so have edited the post accordingly.
Fraser. Helpful as always and thank you. I'll keep a look out for some of those publications at exhibitions. In fact there are some more and rather good Irish photos in the stash so they'll be a useful addition to the library if I can get them in time.
More East Coast today.
We start with Wood Green in Winter 1961. This is A3 60066 Merry Hampton, and at the time it was a Kings Cross engine. It moved to Grantham in June 1963 from where it was withdrawn in the following September. (BR Database). The SLS advises it was still a Kings Cross engine when it was withdrawn in October 1963. Rail UK advises withdrawal from Grantham in September 1963 and that it went to Doncaster Works where it was scrapped with indecent haste about ten days later.
Here's an A1, again in Winter 1961. This is said to be at Wood Green again but I'm thinking it looks a bit more like Harringay. Identification of the loco is not possible.
This is an unidentified A3 which appears to be in the same location.
A3 in Winter 1961 at Kings Cross. This is 60109, Hermit. The date fits nicely as it was fitted with the trough smoke deflectors in January 1961. It was a Kings Cross loco in 1961 from where it was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (BR Database and SLS). It went to Doncaster for disposal which was completed in early April 1963. (Rail UK)
Brian
Dave as in Daifly - thanks for deciphering that number. I reckon you are probably right so have edited the post accordingly.
Fraser. Helpful as always and thank you. I'll keep a look out for some of those publications at exhibitions. In fact there are some more and rather good Irish photos in the stash so they'll be a useful addition to the library if I can get them in time.
More East Coast today.
We start with Wood Green in Winter 1961. This is A3 60066 Merry Hampton, and at the time it was a Kings Cross engine. It moved to Grantham in June 1963 from where it was withdrawn in the following September. (BR Database). The SLS advises it was still a Kings Cross engine when it was withdrawn in October 1963. Rail UK advises withdrawal from Grantham in September 1963 and that it went to Doncaster Works where it was scrapped with indecent haste about ten days later.
Here's an A1, again in Winter 1961. This is said to be at Wood Green again but I'm thinking it looks a bit more like Harringay. Identification of the loco is not possible.
This is an unidentified A3 which appears to be in the same location.
A3 in Winter 1961 at Kings Cross. This is 60109, Hermit. The date fits nicely as it was fitted with the trough smoke deflectors in January 1961. It was a Kings Cross loco in 1961 from where it was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (BR Database and SLS). It went to Doncaster for disposal which was completed in early April 1963. (Rail UK)
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks again Mick. I should have known that if anyone was going to give the answer it would be you!
This is Kings Cross in Winter 1961. B1 61406 was an Immingham engine which moved to Doncaster in February 1966 before being withdrawn in the April. It went to Cohens in Kettering and was scrapped during May. (BR Database and SLS).
Kings Cross Winter 1961 with L1 67770, possibly on empty stock. It was a Kings Cross engine until April 1962 when it moved to Colwick. It was withdrawn from here at the end of the same year. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Darlington North Road at the end of May 1963. (Rail UK)
Kings Cross in winter 1961 with A3 60062 Minoru. It's carrying a headboard but it looks to be reversed. It was at Kings Cross shed until September 1961, confirmed by the shed code. Trough deflectors were fitted in June 1961. After Kings Cross it moved around a bit until being withdrawn from New England at the end of 1964. (BR Database. SLS agrees within a few days). It went to A King and Sons at Norwich for disposal which had happened by the end of February 1965. (Rail UK)
Still at Kings Cross in winter 1961 is A3 60111 Enterprise which appears to be carrying a 34A Kings Cross shed plate. I particularly like the period posters and luggage trolley on the platform. Surprisingly there's no record of the loco ever having been shedded at Kings Cross - it was a Great Central loco until 1957 when it moved to Grantham and it was withdrawn from there in December 1962. Trough deflectors were fitted in April 1962. (BR Database and SLS). It then went to Doncaster where it was scrapped in early April 1963 (Rail UK).
Edit. Having reviewed the photo I suspect it is actually carrying a 34F, Grantham shed plate.
Brian
This is Kings Cross in Winter 1961. B1 61406 was an Immingham engine which moved to Doncaster in February 1966 before being withdrawn in the April. It went to Cohens in Kettering and was scrapped during May. (BR Database and SLS).
Kings Cross Winter 1961 with L1 67770, possibly on empty stock. It was a Kings Cross engine until April 1962 when it moved to Colwick. It was withdrawn from here at the end of the same year. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Darlington North Road at the end of May 1963. (Rail UK)
Kings Cross in winter 1961 with A3 60062 Minoru. It's carrying a headboard but it looks to be reversed. It was at Kings Cross shed until September 1961, confirmed by the shed code. Trough deflectors were fitted in June 1961. After Kings Cross it moved around a bit until being withdrawn from New England at the end of 1964. (BR Database. SLS agrees within a few days). It went to A King and Sons at Norwich for disposal which had happened by the end of February 1965. (Rail UK)
Still at Kings Cross in winter 1961 is A3 60111 Enterprise which appears to be carrying a 34A Kings Cross shed plate. I particularly like the period posters and luggage trolley on the platform. Surprisingly there's no record of the loco ever having been shedded at Kings Cross - it was a Great Central loco until 1957 when it moved to Grantham and it was withdrawn from there in December 1962. Trough deflectors were fitted in April 1962. (BR Database and SLS). It then went to Doncaster where it was scrapped in early April 1963 (Rail UK).
Edit. Having reviewed the photo I suspect it is actually carrying a 34F, Grantham shed plate.
Brian
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Cliff Williams
Western Thunderer
The new tyres for 25235 were fitted a few years ago, the bogies are now “zero hours” on moving parts. Just the small matter of lots of other stuff to do on it!
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
Cliff
I'm a bit out of touch, not really having any involvement since just prior to Covid and other ongoing health issues, but nonetheless good to see things are progressing on the Rat.
Regards
Martin
I'm a bit out of touch, not really having any involvement since just prior to Covid and other ongoing health issues, but nonetheless good to see things are progressing on the Rat.
Regards
Martin
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you Cliff. Restoration always presents moving targets and it's good to see that this is moving on.
I don't know quite what to make of these photos but I'll put them up and see what feedback I get.
These are 08255 and 08244 on MGRs heading to Worksop in 1982. I'd no idea that these were used in pairs (not multiple as each appears to have a driver) on freight trains of any sort. 08255 was introduced as 13325, then D3325 before numbering as an 08. In 1982 it was a Shirebrook loco and was withdrawn from there in October 1984 going to Doncaster Works for scrapping which occurred in March 1986. 08244 was 13314 and then D3314. It was a Tinsley loco and was withdrawn in early May 1986 whence it went to C F Booth at Rotherham where it was cut up in November 1989.
These appear to be a Class 56 travelling away from the camera heading to Worksop also in 1982. Whether these are all the same train or not I'm unsure.
Finally a DMU, and I know not which flavour. It's travelling from Worksop to the ECML in 1982.
Brian
I don't know quite what to make of these photos but I'll put them up and see what feedback I get.
These are 08255 and 08244 on MGRs heading to Worksop in 1982. I'd no idea that these were used in pairs (not multiple as each appears to have a driver) on freight trains of any sort. 08255 was introduced as 13325, then D3325 before numbering as an 08. In 1982 it was a Shirebrook loco and was withdrawn from there in October 1984 going to Doncaster Works for scrapping which occurred in March 1986. 08244 was 13314 and then D3314. It was a Tinsley loco and was withdrawn in early May 1986 whence it went to C F Booth at Rotherham where it was cut up in November 1989.
These appear to be a Class 56 travelling away from the camera heading to Worksop also in 1982. Whether these are all the same train or not I'm unsure.
Finally a DMU, and I know not which flavour. It's travelling from Worksop to the ECML in 1982.
Brian