Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

Discussion in 'Gallery' started by oldravendale, 2 October 2020.

  1. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Larry. Thanks for the detail which I'd failed to notice. It all adds to our knowledge of that particular loco at that time.

    Col. Your location must have been magic in steam days.......

    Dave. Although I never paid particular attention to the coaching stock memory says that there was a huge quantity of it, much only used on high days and holidays - hardly sweating your assets! Except in certain circumstances, ie for certain trains, it was quite usual to see stock from a couple of regions marshalled together, although rarely Southern stock, probably down to the Southern's preference for fixed sets.

    Davey. You are of course, absolutely correct! I thought I'd read the name from the loco nameplate and failed to check it. Apologies to all.:oops:

    Continuing the "Willesden 1964." theme here's yet another Brit, different pattern smoke deflectors with a backing cup to the hand holds. 70044, Earl Haig, was a Crewe North engine in 1964, confirmed by the 5A shed plate. It ended up at Stockport Edgeley in May 1966 by way of Crewe South and Newton Heath. Withdrawal came in October 1966 when it went to T W Ward at Beighton and was scrapped in February 1967.

    img704 TM Willesden 1964 Remask copyright Final.jpg

    Next is 9F 92130, a Toton engine until May 1964, then moving to Carlisle Kingmoor. It was withdrawn from there in May 1966 and went to Motherwell Machinery and Scrap at Wishaw where it was disposed of in November the same year.

    img705 TM Willesden 1964 Remask copyright Final.jpg

  2. Arun

    Arun Western Thunderer

  3. Arun

    Arun Western Thunderer

    No, it was definitely 42234.
  4. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Thanks for the confirmation, Arun.

    Next some more "Willesden 1964". These and some of those to follow are from a roll of film which had been badly damaged during processing. These are also so dirty that they've never been seen before, and certainly not by Tim who bunged them in a neg sleeve "out of the way". However, having examined the subject matter I took the view that these were good photos and well worth a bit of effort. Each of them has taken best part of a week of evenings in front of the box to remove as many of the defects as possible.

    First is a portrait of a Royal Scot. It's still carrying name and number plates at this time. This is 46114, Coldstream Guardsman, (I double checked this time, Davey!) Now, as the loco was withdrawn in September 1963 the date cannot possibly be as late as Tim advises. I'd put it at some time in 1963 - the loco transferred to Willesden from Holyhead in the June. I'm pretty sure it's carrying a 1A shed plate. In September it was one of the locos which moved to the GCR at Annesley and its overall condition in this photo suggests that it harks from this time - the Scots used on the ex GCR services were in appalling condition. It moved back to Willesden for a week in September before going back to Nottingham where it was immediately withdrawn. Although the SLS agrees the withdrawal date they advise that it was from Willesden but was then allocated to Annesley on 12th October 1963. Rail UK advise that withdrawal was from Annesley, but on 28th September 1963, so you pays your money and takes your choice.

    It was finally despatched at the Slag Reduction Company, Ickles, Rotherham at the end of April 1964.

    img706 TM Willesden 1964 Remask copyright Final.jpg

    This is the photo that caused me to pause and consider that there was a great image here struggling to get out.

    img707 TM Willesden 1964 Original.jpg

    There was an exciting image here, struggling to get out. In fact, having completed the reprocessing this, for me, is the very best of Tim's images so far. The only loco which can be identified here is Black 5 44773, and that's probably a V2 from the GCR line behind the labourers, as Neasden was well closed by then and Willesden had taken over shed duties. There's a Royal Scot to the left of the frame - in view of the iron framework probably 46114 again. To my eye the depth of the picture is enhanced by the sharp locos in the foreground and the smoky locos in the background. As you study this the presence in the gloom of three labourers around a brazier becomes apparent, one of whom is seated and looks absolutely knocked out. They look so tiny against the huge machines and the massive railway infrastructure and are descriptive of the unpleasant and filthy work required to keep these locos working.

    img707 TM Willesden 1964 Remask copyright Final.jpg

    There are some more images of a more conventional nature to come from this roll of film and although they'll be titled according to Tim's description I'll correct the date accordingly as I publish them. At the moment I'm retaining Tim's original description throughout so that I can identify the negatives. When finally and properly filed the descriptions will be updates.

  5. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    It seems that photo at Willesden was as popular as I hoped it would be.

    Three for today. These are all in the order of scanning, which in turn is the order they came out of the box, so at this time don't perhaps make any sort of cohesive sense which is why we now have "Marylebone. 18th April 1964." The date is confirmed by Six Bells Junction. It is, of course, Flying Scotsman, of which we've already had a few photos and of which there are more to come.

    img708 TM Marylebone 18 Apr1964 copyright Final.jpg

    Now more Coronations. These are also titled "Willesden 1964." and from a different roll of film to the ones above at Willesden depot so the date may be accurate. The absence of the yellow stripe on the cab side, applied on 5th July 1964 (thanks Dave!) means this photo has to be in the first half of the year. It's 46238, City of Carlisle again, the subject of post #881 where you'll find the details, taken from the perspective of 46237, City of Bristol, the subject of the next photo.

    img709 TM Willesden 1964 Remask copyright Final.jpg

    And here is 46237 City of Bristol. sans yellow stripe. Dave - can you advise when that was applied to this one? There's an unidentified Brit behind and 70029, Shooting Star, alongside. 46237 had been a Carlisle Upperby engine since April 1962 and the 12B shed plate confirms the allocation. It was withdrawn from Carlisle in September 1964, went to Arnott Young at Troon and had ceased to exist by the end of the year.

    img710 TM Willesden 1964 Remask copyright Final.jpg

  6. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    Not only the massive infrastructure but the forest of utility poles with their yard lamps, ladders and electric cables which would have added to the hazards.
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  7. simond

    simond Western Thunderer

    Probably safer with electric lights than fifty years earlier trying to service locos by the light of a flare...
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  8. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    More from "Willesden 1964".

    Here's yet another Britannia, this time 70054 Dornoch Firth with the recessed hand holds in the deflectors again. Not surprisingly this entered service in Scotland but was there for only four years. It was in Crewe North by 1962 moving to Crewe South in 1965 and ultimately Carlisle Kingmoor by way of Banbury. The shed plate probably reads 5A, Crewe North, decipherable if the image is lightened and the contrast increased. It was withdrawn from Carlisle at the end of November 1966 and was scrapped in May 1967 at Motherwell Machinery and Scrap, Wishaw.

    img712 TM Willesden 1964 Remask copyright Final.jpg

    Next Jubilee 45726, Vindictive, with an unidentified Black 5 ahead. The Jubilee ended up at Warrington Dallam in November 1963 before withdrawal in March 1965. It next went to T W Ward, Beighton, Sheffield where it was scrapped in June the same year.

    img711 TM Willesden 1964 Remask copyright Final.jpg

    Finally Jubilee 45591, Udaipur, which had been allocated to Crewe North since December 1956, confirmed by the shed plate it still carries. It was withdrawn from there in October 1963 and was scrapped in the November at Crewe Works.

    This date immediately draws a question about the accuracy of the date attributed to the photo. It must be prior to October 1963 and not 1964, so this will apply to all three of these photos and the previous two of the Coronations.

    img713 TM Willesden 1964 Remask copyright Final.jpg

  9. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    Both Jubilee's have Fowler driving wheels while the trailing set of bogie wheels on 45591 are also Fowler. So having lost the bevel rim wheels they were built with, the Fowler 6' 9" driving wheels must have come from Patriot Class locos. On 5XP and 7P locos, bogie wheels could be LNWR, Fowler or Stanier.
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  10. Dave Holt

    Dave Holt Western Thunderer

    Interesting that 45991 has a domeless boiler at this late date.
  11. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Thanks for he additional stuff, Larry and Dave.

    Now a short diversion to Cricklewood and then back to Willesden, both 1964.

    This is Standard Class 4 2-6-0 76088 at Cricklewood showing a nice display of semaphore signals too. Now the shed plate, although a bit indistinct, shows 14D or 14A I think, which must put this photo earlier than 1964. The loco was shedded at Neasden (14D) from September to December 1960, and at Cricklewood (14A) from September 1962 to September 1963 which, in common with some of the earlier pictures we've seen recently would probably put this photo a year or so earlier than the date proposed by Tim. In any event 76088 kicked around the system not spending very long anywhere until it ended up at Chester in February 1967 from where it was withdrawn in June. The final rites were enacted at Buttigiegs in Newport in December the same year.

    img714 TM Cricklewood 1964  Remask copyright Final.jpg

    Back to Willesden now with a scene attributed to 1964 but probably 1963. It's Jubilee 45704, Leviathan (didn't the Jubs have wonderful names?) complete with Fowler tender (which, IMHO didn't suit the loco at all) and definitely a domed boiler! Hopefully Larry will give us chapter and verse on the wheels. It looks as though the cab side number has been picked out in chalk. By 1963 it was a Crewe North engine and remained there until withdrawal in January 1965. It was withdrawn in January 1965, thence to Cashmore's Great Bridge for disposal which occurred in April of the same year.

    img715 TM Willesden April 1964 Remask.  Poss cabside number picked out in chalk copyright Final.jpg

  12. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    Okay, chapter & verse....:drool:

    As can be seen, the leading bogie wheels are Stanier bevel-rim as are the leading driving wheels. That's it. The rest are Fowler. The early 5700's were outshopped with Fowler Tenders for use on the Newcastle-Leeds Standedge route where there were plenty of track pans.....Okay, water trough's then. Class 40's began to replace them on passenger workings over this route from 1961. The longer sloping throatplate firebox is readily apparent. This is a very pleasing view IMO. The Tender ahead of the loco is a Stanier high-sided short-wheelbase 3.500 gallon type so the loco attached to it is most likely another Jubilee....
    img715 TM Willesden April 1964 Remask.  Poss cabside number picked out in chalk copyright Final.jpg
    Last edited: 15 May 2021
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  13. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Thank you Larry. I guess that's everything on that picture!

    We're now going just down the road to Old Oak Common, also suggested to be in 1964, for a couple of record shots of Castles. The first is 7035, Ogmore Castle. It looks as though it's still in use here, despite it's worn appearance, as there is water draining from the injector on this side and it retains name, number and shed (81A) plates. It was allocated to Old Oak at this time and had been since March 1963 when it moved from Oxford. It was not withdrawn from Old Oak until June 1964 which makes the proposed date, in the first half of the year, credible. At least it had the dignity of being scrapped at Swindon Works which happened in August 1965.

    img716 TM Old Oak April 1964 Remask In steam. Water draining from an injector copyright Final.jpg

    5014, Goodrich Castle, is clearly in steam here and also retains name, number and shed plates, although the allocation is not readable on this one. It was allocated to Old Oak in 1964 - in fact had been since 1942! - and moved from there to Tyseley in June 1964, again putting this picture in the first half of the year. It was withdrawn from Tyseley in early February 1965 and went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped in the following May.

    img717 TM Old Oak April 1964 Remask copyright Final.jpg

  14. daifly

    daifly Western Thunderer

    To narrow it down slightly, I have a colour photo of 5014 taken in March 64 when it was in a markedly better state of cleanliness. So, as cleaning of locos was in decline at the time, I would suggest a date between March and June 64 for the second photo.
  15. simond

    simond Western Thunderer

    Double chimneys don’t suit...
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  16. Dan Randall

    Dan Randall Western Thunderer


    (I will concede, they looked awful on the Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0s though!).


  17. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw Western Thunderer

    I do understand Simon's aesthetic consideration, but there is no doubt that the work of Sam Ell at Swindon in sorting out the draughting of both the Castles and the Kings enabled them to perform at a level the equal of anything else in the 1950s and 60s. The double chimney was the inevitable necessity, and I don't think any worse than Kylchap exhausts and German smoke deflectors at Doncaster.
  18. simond

    simond Western Thunderer

    Bottom line is that the performance demanded it, as Martin said, it clearly worked.

    I’ll continue to model an earlier, and more elegant age...

    nice work there Dan, the double chimney doesn’t look so bad, maybe it’s the angle of Tim’s photo... oh b****r, now I’ll upset someone else :)
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  19. Arun

    Arun Western Thunderer

    Very well spotted Larry - regarding the Stanier 3500 gall tender - Presumably it was the lower line of rivets?
    These tenders were initially fitted to the earliest short firebox engines. Did they tend to keep them all their lives?
    The tender behind is presumably from one of the red Coronation Pacifics.
    Regarding where engines were cut up - When I went through WHTS, I did notice that with many of the classes which were essentially intact till 1961-2, only one or two engines were cut at at BR works and generally the first ones in the class to be cut up. This suggests that BR cut up a representative member of each class possibly to calculate what the scrap weight would be. We know that copper fireboxes were returned to BR (so that they could be turned into catenary wire if the BTF film is to be believed). Presumably an exact weight of steel/non-ferrous parts expected to be recoverable by the scrappies would form the basis of the scrappies tender for any given class of loco.
    Last edited: 15 May 2021
  20. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Dave - thanks for the advice. I think the early part of 1964 would be correct.

    Simon, Dan and Martin. Aesthetically I have to agree with Simon that, as far as I'm concerned at least, the single chimney Castles were better proportioned than the double chimney version. No offence intended, Dan! However I'm equally certain that your comments about the improvement in efficiency and drafting relatively inexpensively made such changes a no brainer at the time.

    Arun. I think you are correct about the Coronation tender behind the Jubilee. Also I'd never considered the benefits of cutting up one or two locos at works - it was always put down to the lack of available heads in works to do the job. However I can see the reasoning behind working out the value of the metal over the cost in time to do the work. I'd also never heard about the copper being returned to BR. If that was the case how did Woodham's manage to hold on to so many locos for so long? And did they have to pay a penalty to BR when locos were sold on to preservationists?

    For todays photos I've decided to break away from the shed scenes for a bit and go lineside. Tim spent many hours alongside the West Coast main line, although not exclusively, looking for that elusive "perfect" picture and there are plenty of them! Regrettably (although I'd not say this to Tim, you understand), they are relatively pedestrian in terms of visual impact. Nevertheless they serve to demonstrate the shear variety of motive power in one small location. They have an interest for me, particularly, as they are taken broadly in the area where I started my spotting and from which my interest in railways emanates.

    To start with "South Kenton May 1964." I believe a lot of these photos were from South Kenton or North Wembley as both stations had an open island platform on the inner suburban DC electric lines. Here a grubby Standard 5 4-6-0, 73014, not a very common class out of Euston although not terribly rare either, passes with a down train of what, to my unpracticed eye looks like LMS suburban stock. Between 1960 and March 1964 this was a Willesden loco, moving to Bletchley after Willesden so it's entirely possible that this is an outer suburban train to Bletchley. It ended up at Bolton in April 1966 and was withdrawn from there in July 1967, going to Cashmore's (Newport) where it was dismantled during January 1968.

    img723 TM South Kenton May 1964 Remask copyright Final.jpg

    This is "South Kenton 1964" with no month attributed but to all intents and purposes looks as though it may have been at the same time as the photo above. This is similarly grubby Jubilee 45604, Ceylon, on a down van train. At the time of this photo up to July 1964 this was a Carnforth engine moving to Warrington Dallam. It went to Newton Heath in April 1965 from where it was withdrawn in July and was sent to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped during October. Of note here is an embellished smokebox number plate, with the corners highlighted. Was this a characteristic of locos from one or other of the sheds to which it could have been allocated at the time?.

    img726 TM South Kenton 1964 Remask copyright Final.jpg

    Finally for today, and also "South Kenton 1964" is one of the mainstays of secondary express services out of Euston, and looking quite tidy, a rebuilt Patriot, 45530 Sir Frank Ree. At the time of the phto it was a Willesden engine up to June 1964 when it moved to Holyhead. It was withdrawn at the beginning of 1965 but then possibly reinstated as it's shown as allocated to Carlisle Kingmoor on 2nd January and finally withdrawn on 1st January 1966. It went to Motherwell Machinery and Scrap, Inslow Works, Wishaw where it was scrapped in March 1966.

    img727 TM South Kenton 1964 Remask copyright Final.jpg