Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Arun - I was there at about the same time because I have this! I took this at Willesden on 15th November 1964. It was unusual for locos to be scrapped at Willesden so I assumed that something had happened which made it impossible to tow away although I didn't know what the problem was. Now I do! Even in 1964 a Fairburn tank in the scrap line was quite unusual.



David - I guess that might be a Brit behind Evening Star but I have no definitive evidence. At the time it was not unusual to see "foreign" engines at Old Oak or Willesden which may be in use for specials of one sort or another. Tim has a photo, yet to be seen on this thread, of a Clan at Liverpool Street!

For today a couple at "Willesden 1964." These are the first of a number taken in 1964 but they'll be rationed to two or three per post. Here's maroon Coronation 46238, City of Carlisle. This had been a Camden engine for a while in the 50s but at the time of this photo was shedded, appropriately, at Carlisle Upperby and had been since 1951/2. It was withdrawn from there in September 1964 and was despatched at Arnott Young in Troon in the December.



Next "another Black 5". That was the sense of looking at such a common loco even in 1964. This is 45369, a Saltley engine in 1964 which moved on to Mold Junction and Chester where it was withdrawn in March 1967. The final rites happened at Cohens, Morriston, in the October.



Brian

Edit: I forgot to draw attention to the cars on site. I suspect this is a scene rarely modelled. Also, the Black Five is on a track parallel to the long shed at Willesden. I suspect that the coach, part of which can be seen in the background, is from the breakdown train which was often if not usually moored alongside the long shed and always with a loco in steam at the head.

 

[mickoo]

Clans worked on the GE for a while, Stratford made excessive efforts not to use them in the hope they would move on, they were successful .

West Countries and Bob's worked the GE too whilst the Brits went away for axle repairs/replacement following a spate of sheared axles in service.

 

[oldravendale]

The 94xx does appear to be a Welsh loco but having played around with the brightness, contrast etc of the posted image it might be 8433 which was an OOC loco. FWIW, 8433 had what appears to be an offset top-of smokebox lamp holder!
View attachment 142778 View attachment 142779

Apologies, Dave. I didn't acknowledge your helpful post.

You may well be correct about the number but I remain to be convinced. Certainly the 94XX panniers were not rare at Old Oak or Southall so it could possibly be one of a number. I'll use your kind bit of research as part of the description and let others decide whether they agree or not!

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

I've just had a thought about that photo of the Coronation. When was the yellow stripe applied banning use of certain classes south of Crewe? If it was prior to 1964 this photo might be dated rather earlier than Tim has described. Camden closed in September 1963 when the top link locos were serviced at Willesden, so it's quite a narrow window.

Brian

 

[mickoo]

#238 was striped at some point between Jun 13th and Aug 15th 1964, that's as close as I can get from a brief look at my resources.

 

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

#238 was striped at some point between Jun 13th and Aug 15th 1964, that's as close as I can get from a brief look at my resources.

Oh, come on Mick you can do better than that.

all the best
Tim

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Mick, for the info on the Clans at Liverpool Street. I knew of one and thought it was a unique visit, but I didn't realise there were more. I certainly never saw one.

Also for the info about the Coronation. In view of the withdrawal date it didn't carry the stripe for long. In the photo that loco looks to be in superb condition too. Still, I suppose if they couldn't come south of Crewe and with the huge influx of Class 40s there was no work for them, so the result was inevitable.

Continuing with the "Willesden 1964" theme, and probably on the same day as the Coronation and Black 5 above here are two of the sme Britannia. This is 70004, William Shakespeare, supplied new as a BR (GE) loco transferred immediately to Stewarts Lane - published photos show it on the Golden Arrow along with Iron Duke. It moved away to the LMR in 1958 and was at Willesden from July 1963 to January 1965, confirmed by the 1A shed plate in the photo. This loco carries the standard smoke deflectors as provided when they were introduced. It ended up at Carlisle Kingmoor in June 1967 and was withdrawn at the end of the year. It was scrapped in March 1968 at T W Ward, Inverkeithing.



Here it is again with another Brit lined up behind. Also visible is what became Class 20 20043 but in the guise of D8043, also a Willesden engine at the time.



Brian

 

[LarryG]

Wasn't the "Fairburn" being scraped a Stanier 2-6-4T? Even possibly a 3-cylinder version?

 

[Heather Kay]

Also visible is what became Class 20 20043 but in the guise of D8043

At this time, of course, still referred to as an English Electric Type 1 Bo-Bo.

I have my anorak. Just picking up my duffel bag and bottle of Tizer.

 

[daifly]

#238 was striped at some point between Jun 13th and Aug 15th 1964, that's as close as I can get from a brief look at my resources.

LMS 46238 46248 46241 July 1964
5th July 64 at Willesden.
Dave

 

[Dave Holt]

Wasn't the "Fairburn" being scraped a Stanier 2-6-4T? Even possibly a 3-cylinder version?

Larry, I think you can just make out the double brake block arrangement used on the Fairburn locos. Also, I think the water balance pipes under the cab opening were more rounded on the Stanier locos.
Mind you, there's barely enough of the loco left to make a positive identification.
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

We can be certain of the loco ID, Larry. Both Arun and I recorded the loco at the time. Furthermore 42234 is recorded on RailUK as scrapped at Willesden shed in November 1964 "after an accident".

Brian

 

[mickoo]

Clan update, I though it was three or four moved over for testing, it wasn't, it was only 72009 for just over a month late in 1958.

It didn't fair well as operations put it on trains more suited to Brits, was that by design or accident is often questioned. The GE didn't want them as they'd loose the same number (touted as four or five engines for the swap) in Brits back to the LMR and the GE loved their Brits.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Clan update, I though it was three or four moved over for testing, it wasn't, it was only 72009 for just over a month late in 1958.

It didn't fair well as operations put it on trains more suited to Brits, was that by design or accident is often questioned. The GE didn't want them as they'd loose the same number (touted as four or five engines for the swap) in Brits back to the LMR and the GE loved their Brits.

I can't remember where I've read it, I know I have the info some where, but the shed master wanted nothing to do with the 'Clans', they were seen as inferior to the Brit's, on a par with the B1, and would not be good on the Brit's schedule. There was no way Stratford was going to part with their 7p class loco's. They failed the Clan's at every opportunity, and of coarse they one in the end until the diesels turned up.

Col.

 

[mickoo]

I can't remember where I've read it, I know I have the info some where, but the shed master wanted nothing to do with the 'Clans', they were seen as inferior to the Brit's, on a par with the B1, and would not be good on the Brit's schedule. There was no way Stratford was going to part with their 7p class loco's. They failed the Clan's at every opportunity, and of coarse they one in the end until the diesels turned up.

Col.

I'm sure there were discreet calls between Stratford and Liverpool Street ops to put the Clan on the heavier trains like the Norfolk man and Continental Express boat trains. Both of these had grown in length and weight and were class 7 trains in reality, certainly if they wanted to keep to the very tight schedules GE operated under.

Whilst the Clan could cope once it got going it didn't have the grunt to get up to speed quick enough, folks assume East Anglia is flat, the GE main certainly isn't with some stiff climbs for engines starting away. Brentwood is the steepest but also the shortest and expresses had a good chance to get a good run at it through Harold Wood on the Down Main.

Next up is the climb out of Colchester for down trains, you get a good down hill start for the first mile or so and then the climb begins, it's not so bad once they rebuilt Colchester but back in the day there were a few speed restrictions for crossovers I think, nowadays it's wide open acceleration.

Manningtree is a witch, not so bad for down trains as you get a fairly decent run across the estuary before the climb up to just past Bentley, it's steepest up to Brantham and then levels a bit. For up trains it's a slog up to Ardleigh on a rising grade before you leave station limits, even the 47's back in the day struggled up here.

Ipswich is okay for down trains but up trains face the climb back up to Bentley which is not to be sniffed at, even today heavy trains really suffer, I bagged a 66 on the sand train from the Port at the crest of the grade, he was down to about 15 mph and the heat from the 66 was easily felt line side, the driver was laughing and make puffing faces as he passed.

Further north it's easier going, a long but gradual climb out of Stowmarket to just past Haughley is the worst and once past Bacton it's greyhound territory. Finally, at Norwich, up trains face a stiff old climb up to I think Swainsthorpe.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Heather. You put me on the bridge over the GWR main line at Southall.......

Dave - Thanks for refining the detail. That puts the photo pretty firmly in the first half of 1964.

And Dave H. Thanks for the clarification about the 2-6-4T.

Mick and Col. Thanks for the full story of the Clans on the GE. I'd heard somewhere previously that they were felt to be underpowered for the GE main line apart from which, as you say, the GE drivers had taken to the Brits like ducks to water.

Staying at "Willesden 1964" another quite pedestrian "Jocko", in fact it's 47501 again, last seen in post #874 so I'll not go in to the life story again.



Next a rather nicer portrait of Jubilee 45676, Goodrington outside the long shed. (Step back too far from Tim's position and he'd have been in the Grand Union Canal.) At the time this was a Willesden engine - although the shed plate is rather indistinct it looks more like a 1a than an 8A - moving to Edge Hill at the end of August 1964. It was withdrawn from there at the end of September and went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped in January 1965.



Brian

 

[LarryG]

Jubilee 45676, all Fowler wheels on loco except the leading Stanier pair.

I know: I'm a bit of a wheel nut!

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Further north it's easier going, a long but gradual climb out of Stowmarket to just past Haughley is the worst and once past Bacton it's greyhound territory. Finally, at Norwich, up trains face a stiff old climb up to I think Swainsthorpe.

I live in Finningham 1/2 mile North of Bacton and when the wind is South - Westerly you can hear the diesels on containers coming up from Haughley,
some times you'll here a 37 or 57 even if it's light engine, I certainly hear 'em all across the back of my garden across the field.

Col.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Staying at "Willesden 1964" another quite pedestrian "Jocko", in fact it's 47501 again, last seen in post #874 so I'll not go in to the life story again.

Interesting to see Gresley and Thompson carriage stock in the background - off it's beaten track!

 

[Stirling O]

Thanks Heather. You put me on the bridge over the GWR main line at Southall.......

Dave - Thanks for refining the detail. That puts the photo pretty firmly in the first half of 1964.

And Dave H. Thanks for the clarification about the 2-6-4T.

Mick and Col. Thanks for the full story of the Clans on the GE. I'd heard somewhere previously that they were felt to be underpowered for the GE main line apart from which, as you say, the GE drivers had taken to the Brits like ducks to water.

Staying at "Willesden 1964" another quite pedestrian "Jocko", in fact it's 47501 again, last seen in post #874 so I'll not go in to the life story again.

View attachment 142851

Next a rather nicer portrait of Jubilee 45676, Goodrington outside the long shed. (Step back too far from Tim's position and he'd have been in the Grand Union Canal.) At the time this was a Willesden engine - although the shed plate is rather indistinct it looks more like a 1a than an 8A - moving to Edge Hill at the end of August 1964. It was withdrawn from there at the end of September and went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped in January 1965.

View attachment 142852

Brian

If I may, the Jubilee's name is "Codrington". I'm loving these wonderful photographs, there's always so much of interest, which are enhanced by the input of other members.

Davey