Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

A quick note before I forget to thank you all for your "Likes". They really make a thread like this one worthwhile from the originator's perspective, and from Tim's as well.

For today two "Old Oak 1964." and both remasks from large format negatives. Neither are great images but both have some interesting if not particularly notable peripheral detail. First is Hall 5979 Cruckton Hall on what appears to be a Parcels train. For most of 1964 it was a Gloucester Horton Road engine and as the history of the loco in the next shot shows it to have been withdrawn in the September this must be prior to then. Later in 1964, in October, 5979 moved to Cardiff East Dock. In this photo the loco carries no shed plate as was quite normal at the time. The loco was withdrawn from Cardiff in November 1964 and was scrapped at R S Hays/Birds, Tremains Yard, Bridgend in April 1965.



Here's 43XX 2-6-0 No 6363 light engine and making for Old Oak shed carrying an 81E shed plate. It was at Didcot up to June 1964 when it moved to Taunton from where it was withdrawn in the following September. It went to Birds Morriston for dismantling which occurred in January 1965.


Brian

 

[simond]

Keep ‘em coning Brian!

thoughts about the colour and texture of the ground here? Looks like dried mud, with countless boot prints?
Suggests stippling wettish plaster as a modelling medium?

cheers
Simon

 

[Dog Star]

In both of the most recent photos we can see, distantly, buildings which could well be parts of the wagon works... the photos of the late 70s/ early 80s show just desolate scrub. Anyone know when the repair works were closed?

 

[oldravendale]

Simon - I remember well the spot where this photo was taken and don't remember dried mud! But that was 57 years ago and I can't remember what day of the week it is! This was a favourite location of Tim's so I expect there'll be plenty of opportunity to discover the true nature of the ground here. One thing for sure - I'm not the person to suggest a way of reproducing that texture.

Graham - Following your post I've done a bit of research and there's plenty about the loco shed and carriage works but nothing about the wagon works, but I'm sure you know that already. I'll not hold my breath but hope that someone can furnish the details.

Only one for today, but a nice portrait of a Brit. The photo is identified by Tim as "Willesden 1964." (That seems to have been a really prolific year for him). This is 70021, Morning Star in very decent condition, named for the sake of BR(WR) but kept by them for only seven years before they lost interest and sent it to the LMR. In 1964 it lived at Willesden before moving to Crewe North in 1965. It then kicked around the North-West ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor in June 1967 from where it was withdrawn at the end of December the same year. It was recorded at Carnforth "out of use" on 16th February 1968. It went to T W Ward Inverkeithing for disposal and the date of 26th April 1968 for the final act is quite specific.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

This may be of interest - came across this Crossrail Archaeological Report (2010) about Old Oak Common works while looking into the carriage and wagon repair shop off Scrubs Lane.

Towards the end it contains track diagrams of the original engine shed, other diagrams and photographs.

EDIT - just looked at this report again. Maps, track and building plans start at page 79 (including map extracts from 1741-45) and photographs start at page 117.

https://www.matabaro.co.uk/wp-conte...aeological-Detailed-Desk-Based-Assessment.pdf

In both of the most recent photos we can see, distantly, buildings which could well be parts of the wagon works... the photos of the late 70s/ early 80s show just desolate scrub. Anyone know when the repair works were closed?

This report (page 46) https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/22._heritage_strategy_part_2_0.pdf states the Carriage and Wagon Repair shops were in operation up to the late 1950s. Given Tim's photos are dated 1964 one can only assume the buildings were razed between 1964 and 1980.

The site today is occupied by North Pole Depot constructed in 1991 - up to 2007 it was the Eurostar depot.

 

[Dave Holt]

Nice photo of the Brit. Interesting for an ex-WR example to still have, or has been refitted with, original smoke deflector hand rail rather than the inset pocket type (visible on the Scot) usually fitted to WR Brits after the crash. Also, the return crank looks to have been modified to the ex-LMS four bolt attachment rather than the square ended crank pin used on the earlier standards.
Dave.

 

[mickoo]

Nice photo of the Brit. Interesting for an ex-WR example to still have, or has been refitted with, original smoke deflector hand rail rather than the inset pocket type (visible on the Scot) usually fitted to WR Brits after the crash. Also, the return crank looks to have been modified to the ex-LMS four bolt attachment rather than the square ended crank pin used on the earlier standards.
Dave.

As far as I can tell, #21 never got hand holds in the deflectors, I'd need to check more than the half dozen digital photos I have to be sure.

The cupped pockets were fitted to GE and MR engines, the WR engines went with big ugly oblong holes cut in the metal work, though I'm not sure that was a hard and fast rule in later years.

 

[Martin Shaw]

The WR had 15-29 allocated to it mainly at Old Oak or Canton, with a couple at Newton Abbot or Laira on occasions. although thats' where 21 was in 1951-7. Of these Micks right about the handrail mod which 21 never had but it was the only WR one not so done. It seems that of a class of 55 locos, 11 were definitely never modified, 4/14/21/32/42/45-49/51, and perhaps 4 might not have been, 33/43/50/52.
Regards
Martin

 

[LarryG]

One thing of note on that shiny smooth Britannia boiler is that, boiler bands are never as thick as manufacturers and modellers alike often think.

Right from the beginning of my painting & lining career, I used to ask clients to send me a piece of card with the boiler band spacing and I would fit drafting tape bands with lining on it. I would also fit unlined boiler bands, as they would be secure under the primer.

The Brits were a well balanced design and yet I thought they were rather unprepossessing out on the road. Other designs were all over the place and yet they looked impressive (Crab for example).

 

[oldravendale]

Dave of the Yorkshire calling - Thanks so much for that report about Old Oak. I saw it on line but it seemed so enormous that I rather skirted around it. However there's loads of interesting stuff there, particularly for those of us who remember the shed and associated works. It seems that the wagon works were lumped in with the carriage works. I was particularly taken by the references to the Pullman shed which I remember very well. It was home for the Blue Pullmans and also the relief train of beautiful loco hauled Pullman coaches. The same goes for the Factory. In fact I'm pretty sure Tim has some photos taken in there. The maps are just a wonderful source of enjoyment.

Dave of the Holt clan, Mick and Martin. Thanks for filling in gaps around the peculiarities of the WR examples, all duly added to the data for the photo.

And Larry. Yep, there is a tendency to overdo the boiler bands as has been discussed on WT many times in the past. I used lined transfer paper for my "K" and it looks superior to the applied metal boiler bands IMHO.

For today two photos of the same train in broadly the same location. Both are entitled "Old Oak. County on Parcels." These must be 1964 as the are on the same strip as the previous neg. Sadly, however, the identity of the loco is not recorded.

I've retained the full frame on the second photo as the mighty bridges rather add a sense of scale. Great photos - possibly not - but interesting for details nonetheless.





Brian

 

[daifly]

The identity can be narrowed down substantially. By end-Dec 1963 only 8 of the class of 30 remained in service with another withdrawn in February 1964. It is presumably not a cold day - little visible steam/exhaust and the workmen in shirtsleeves. At the beginning of April only 7 members remained - 1000/10/11/12/13/14/24. Two of these, 1012/4, were withdrawn in April. My money would be on the loco being one of the remaining 5 - 1000/10/11/13/24. The class did not have many variants at the end - all had double chimneys and I can't remember ever seeing one running with anything but a Hawksworth flat-sided tender so further elimination I'll leave to others!
Dave

 

[76043]

Any idea why EAGRE and the text below it, is painted on the shed that is clearly on railway land?

I hadn't realised concrete cable trunking was used in the 60"s either.

Tony

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Any idea why EAGRE and the text below it, is painted on the shed that is clearly on railway land?

Probably a shed belonging to these railway contractors Eagre Construction Co - Graces Guide

Now part of VolkerRail - the brief history is here.

 

[oldravendale]

Nice bit of sleuthing there, Dave. That narrows the field considerably. Many thanks.

And once again, Yorkshire Dave (maybe it should be Bruce and Bruce?) many thanks for the explanation. I was going to comment on the Eagre hut but forgot!

We're going to be jumping between Old Oak and Willesden now for a while. Both sheds were very close to each other and it was unlikely that one would be "done" without the other.

For today two entitled "Willesden 1964." The first is Jinty or Jocko, depending on your preference, 47501. This was a long term resident of Willesden having been there since the end of 1957. (Sister engine 47500 was also allocated to Willesden and I took a colour shot of it there). In fact 47501 was withdrawn from Willesden in September 1964 and was scrapped at Cohens Kettering in February 1965. To the right of the frame is the "dump" referred to in Simond's thread. What was that long two wheeled contraption for?



Also "Willesden 1964." is this picture of Britannia 70015 Apollo in the long shed. Nice tripping hazard right next to the pit to the front right of the loco which could neatly drop an unfortunate an extra few feet! This picture shows very clearly the hand holds in the smoke deflectors discussed at some length following post #864. This loco had been all over the place and had previously been allocated to Willesden although by 1964 belonged to Crewe North. It moved from there to Stockport Edgeley at the end of May 1965 and then Carlisle Kingmoor in mid June 1967 where it lasted a few weeks before withdrawal in early August 1967. It went to J McWilliams, Shettleston for scrapping and the deed was done in January 1968.



Brian

 

[LarryG]

I was doing a spot of Saturday morning overtime at Abbeyford Trailers beside Abergele & Pensarn Station, when a commotion attracted me outside. I think it was Apollo minus nameplates standing in the Down platform surrounded by the excitable types of the mid 1960's. I didn't wait to watch it depart.

 

[Arun]

Simon - I remember well the spot where this photo was taken and don't remember dried mud! But that was 57 years ago and I can't remember what day of the week it is! This was a favourite location of Tim's so I expect there'll be plenty of opportunity to discover the true nature of the ground here. One thing for sure - I'm not the person to suggest a way of reproducing that texture.

Graham - Following your post I've done a bit of research and there's plenty about the loco shed and carriage works but nothing about the wagon works, but I'm sure you know that already. I'll not hold my breath but hope that someone can furnish the details.

Only one for today, but a nice portrait of a Brit. The photo is identified by Tim as "Willesden 1964." (That seems to have been a really prolific year for him). This is 70021, Morning Star in very decent condition, named for the sake of BR(WR) but kept by them for only seven years before they lost interest and sent it to the LMR. In 1964 it lived at Willesden before moving to Crewe North in 1965. It then kicked around the North-West ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor in June 1967 from where it was withdrawn at the end of December the same year. It was recorded at Carnforth "out of use" on 16th February 1968. It went to T W Ward Inverkeithing for disposal and the date of 26th April 1968 for the final act is quite specific.

View attachment 142614

Brian

Willesden in 1964 was especially interesting because Camden's allocation of express locos had all passed to Willesden by that time. My recollection is that wandering into Willesden via the canal path was easier than getting into Camden.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the recollection, Larry. I love these personal reminiscences.

I remember that time too, Arun. An abiding memory is seeing the Princesses in store at Willesden - Tim actually has a photo which is yet to appear. He and I must have crossed paths so many times without knowing it and before we knew one another. I agree about the entry to Willesden as well. It was so easy along the back of the long shed with the canal on one side. As you say, Camden was far from easy. Old Oak was a doddle too - along the canal and through a convenient hole in the concrete wall...... I was never chucked out of either.

Anyway, today we're back at Old Oak. These two are "Old Oak 1964." Both are remasks of large format negs. There's a tranche of Willesden photos to come in the next post. First today though it's Evening Star again, and I believe just leaving the shed. Tim must have seen this loco on numerous occasions. Despite it being an Old Ok resident for a month in the sixties and a common visitor thereafter I never saw it until it was in preservation.



This one is possibly rather more interesting in that it's so hum-drum. Two pannier tanks, one of the 57XX flavour and one of the 94XX type. A Warship passes on an adjacent line. The 57XX is 9659 which was a Slough resident, moving to Southall in March or April 1965 and withdrawn in June 1965. It was scrapped by the end of October at T W Ward, Briton Ferry. Regrettably the number of the 94XX is just not quite readable - I've checked the likely candidates but they all appear to be Welsh locos so most unlikely to get as far as London.



Brian

 

[Arun]

Thanks for the recollection, Larry. I love these personal reminiscences.

I remember that time too, Arun. An abiding memory is seeing the Princesses in store at Willesden - Tim actually has a photo which is yet to appear. He and I must have crossed paths so many times without knowing it and before we knew one another. I agree about the entry to Willesden as well. It was so easy along the back of the long shed with the canal on one side. As you say, Camden was far from easy. Old Oak was a doddle too - along the canal and through a convenient hole in the concrete wall...... I was never chucked out of either.
Brian

It's odd what you do remember from afar - My abiding memory of Willesden is seeing a gleaming maroon 'City of London' prepared and ready to leave the shed but also a Fairburn tank [42234] tucked away at the back of the shed suffering death by a thousand cuts. I gather it might have been involved in a heavy shunt? as it had lost its pony truck and was being slowly dismembered.

 

[daifly]

The 94xx does appear to be a Welsh loco but having played around with the brightness, contrast etc of the posted image it might be 8433 which was an OOC loco. FWIW, 8433 had what appears to be an offset top-of smokebox lamp holder!

 

[David B]

Is that a Britannia behind Evening Star? And if so, what is it doing at Old Oak in 1964?