Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[LarryG]

Sacrilege that 80031 was scrapped after 13 years life. To put it into perspective, imagine it was brandnew in 2011 and scrapped this year. That was Britain back in the day with many locos having much shorter lives. The exciting new post-war era for railways was so very short lived.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

It was Hurst Green that was resited/rebuilt 1961-62 not Ashurst. Only able to accommodate 2 coach trains Hurst Green Halt was demolished and resited the other side of the road bridge.

Thanks Brian - I knew one of the halts had been resited and rebuilt during the period the Tim's photos were taken.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Adam @AJC , Simon @simond and Roger @Roger Pound for looking at the alleged C2X. I'm convinced it's a Q now, and we have even a "possible" for a number which is quite remarkable.

Also, Adam, for the info on that wagon.

I give in, Dave @daifly ! You found my deliberate mistake - yet again. I'll "adjust" the commentary with that photo by way of an Edit.

Tony @76043 , Dave @Yorkshire Dave and Brian @2-Bil . Thanks for an interesting discussion about the station, and the route of that train, Dave.

Then there are the comments from Larry @LarryG and Roger @Roger Pound . I agree that the standard classes had a raw deal as far as longevity is concerned. I was discussing this yesterday and the point was made that, even if there were concentration depots for steam as the diesel and electric world moved in it may have been difficult to staff many of the filthy jobs which steam demanded. Perhaps so, but we lost some fine locos far too early.

Now here's an interesting (or maybe not!) thing. I'm very well aware of the effect of one's surroundings on the way one judges photographic density and colour. That (among other things) is why the BBC and others have standardised viewing conditions. However, the relevance to this thread is that when I post photos during daylight hours they look too dark. Recently, and because most of the posts in this thread are made during the day I've been lightening the images. Viewed at night those "improved" images look dreadful - way over exposed. Therefore, and going forward, I'll be posting at the original density I decided upon when sitting in the lounge at night in front of the TV - after all, there's rarely anything on there about which to get excited! (Other opinions are available). So, if the photos look rather dark when you first view them during the day have another go in the evening under artificial light.:

A view of Brighton main line at Redhill on 5th June 1962 with an unidentified Bulleid Pacific passing.



A view from the train en route to Guildford on 5th June 1962. We know neither the loco nor the starting point but my guess is Redhill.



We'll have to take Tim's word for this one. It's U Cass 2-6-0 31622 on a Redhill to Reading service near Guildford on 5th June 1962. It had been allocated to Guildford since October 1954 and was withdrawn from there in January 1964. (SLS). The RO report it at Eastleigh Works in early February 1964 where it was cut up week ending 29th February.



Another U, this time 31616 on a Reading to Redhill train near Guildford on 5th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Redhill in February 1960, then Norwood Junction in December 1962 and finally Nine Elms at the end of December 1963. It was withdrawn in June 1964. This one went to Ward's in Grays, Essex for disposal (WHTS) which was completed in November 1964. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
#3147 is most definitely not Redhill, too many railway lines and some multiple aspect signals which didn't appear at Redhill for another 20 years. There also isn't an overbridge at Redhill to take the photo from. Besides that the likelihood of a Bulleid pacific on the Brighton main line in 1962 whilst not impossible is highly unlikely. My plump is for Wimbledon with the "B" box to the fore, although I'm not wholly convinced.
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

A view of Brighton main line at Redhill on 5th June 1962 with an unidentified Bulleid Pacific passing.

The headcode is wrong for the Brighton Main line. This is LSWR main line into Waterloo and we are looking south west towards Clapham Junction. The headcode indicating a Bournemouth - Brockenhurst - Waterloo train.

The signal box is Queens Road Battersea and the photo is taken from a Victoria train crossing the main line.

I have annotated a NLS OS 1:1,250 1944-72 A edition series map to show where the photo was taken from (red). The signal box in circled in blue.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

A view from the train en route to Guildford on 5th June 1962. We know neither the loco nor the starting point but my guess is Redhill.

The loco at the head of the train appears to a BR Standard tank judging by the shape of the tank side and bunker. Which is interesting as these services were usually in the hands of the N or U 2-6-0s. The coaching stock appears to be either Maunsell restriction 0 (8' 'Hastings') or 1 (8'6'' 'Thanet') as the footboards are continuous and visible. with no apparent tumblehome. This type stock is commensurate for this line being an ex-SECR route.

Edit - a bit more research reveals milepost 31 3/4 (from Tonbridge) is between Dorking and Gomshall & Shere.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

We'll have to take Tim's word for this one. It's U Cass 2-6-0 31622 on a Redhill to Reading service near Guildford on 5th June 1962. It had been allocated to Guildford since October 1954 and was withdrawn from there in January 1964. (SLS). The RO report it at Eastleigh Works in early February 1964 where it was cut up week ending 29th February.

Another U, this time 31616 on a Reading to Redhill train near Guildford on 5th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Redhill in February 1960, then Norwood Junction in December 1962 and finally Nine Elms at the end of December 1963. It was withdrawn in June 1964. This one went to Ward's in Grays, Essex for disposal (WHTS) which was completed in November 1964. (BR Database).

And finally these two must have been taken in the 450m (approx 1/4 mile) between St Catherine's Hill tunnel and Shalford Junction as we are on the electrified Portsmouth main line.

 

[Arun Sharma]

Yep, possibly 30543. That’s pushing the resolution a bit, but it did have the right sort of chimney and that repair to the tender; VIEW Steam loco Q 30543 Guildford

The subject is really the rather nice GWR shock high, W139350, lettered as return to West Bromwich. Note the ratchet lever guide and replacement plate front axleboxes, and unpainted plank on the door.

Adam

The perhaps more obvious reason why the loco isn't a C2X is that C2X locos had round fireboxes and that loco has a belpaire type box

 

[AJC]

The perhaps more obvious reason why the loco isn't a C2X is that C2X locos had round fireboxes and that loco has a belpaire type box

And the cab is a completely different shape too. I didn't get that far because, well, it was so obviously a Q...

Adam

 

[Osgood]

Brian, there's some quite amazing work going on as it is to validate / correct Tim's data - but can you imagine the scale of the task say 25 years ago?

I know we moan about modern tech and the way it could go, but a lot of this information would simply have been inaccessible back then.

 

[oldravendale]

Right! A fair bit there for me to get my teeth into.

Thank you Martin @Martin Shaw and Dave @Yorkshire Dave for correcting my erroneous info. I thought Tim had probably blagged his way on to a balcony of some flats to take the picture. It's a bit strange (to me) that he didn't remember where the picture was taken but as always I'm taking whatever details I can glean from his notes. The map is particularly instructive.

And again, Dave, regarding the photo from the train and the two of the Us. Amazing info to confirm where they are.

Thanks Adam @AJC and Arun for yours confirming the Q. I initially raised the query in my own head regarding the firebox and then the cab was the confirmation.

Tony @Osgood - how right you are! This thread is giving us the opportunity to, as you say, validate and correct the info. Not only that but it's enlarging the sketchy information we have to hand when it is basically correct. In many cases the information can only be determined as erroneous in the first place because of the learnt knowledge coming from several notable contributors. The modern tech does a good job of confirming data but it usually seems to be someone saying "that doesn't look right" to set the hare running. It's difficult to underestimate the value I put on these corrections and additional info and Tim's family love to see the way the data builds. Thank you to everyone who spends their valuable time researching and confirming all sorts of information on here.

Schools 30929 Malvern on a Margate to Bradford train laving Guildford on 5th June 1962. This went to Brighton shed in January 1962 where it was withdrawn at the end of the year. (SLS). The SLS report it at Eastleigh MPD on 20th January 1963 awaiting scrap and BR Database that it was scrapped in March the same year.





43XX Class 6337 on a Guildford to Reading service leaving Guildford on 5th June 1962. Note two double slips in the foreground and what looks to be a single towards the back of the picture. The loco was allocated to Reading in May 1962, was stored in August 1963 and went to Didcot in November the same year where it was withdrawn in July 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, but I can find no date. (BR Database).



N Class 2-6-0 31859 on a Redhill to Reading train entering Guildford on 5th June 1962. It was allocated to Guildford in December 1961 and Exmouth Junction in August 1963 where it was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird’s, Morriston, Swansea where it was reported by WHTS on 14th October 1964 with a scrapping date in December the same year. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

I have a reference which gives 6337 as being scrapped in 07/64, but no location. I cannot vouch for the accuracy, but it is a possible hint........?

Roger

 

[Dog Star]

Double slips in the foreground and what looks to be a single towards the back...

Please excuse this comment... to me it looks like three double slips in a row.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Schools 30929 Malvern on a Margate to Bradford train laving Guildford on 5th June 1962. This went to Brighton shed in January 1962 where it was withdrawn at the end of the year. (SLS). The SLS report it at Eastleigh MPD on 20th January 1963 awaiting scrap and BR Database that it was scrapped in March the same year.

I couldn't find a Margate - Bradford train in the 1962 timetables however there is a Margate - Birkenhead train via Redhill and Reading General. Dep 09.15 Margate, arr 12.16 Guildford and arr Birkenhead 18.54 (6.54pm). The headcode correctly indicates Margate - Reading.

43XX Class 6337 on a Guildford to Reading service leaving Guildford on 5th June 1962. Note two double slips in the foreground and what looks to be a single towards the back of the picture. The loco was allocated to Reading in May 1962, was stored in August 1963 and went to Didcot in November the same year where it was withdrawn in July 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, but I can find no date. (BR Database).

Notice how the headlamps have been placed in the BR(S) position for Guildford-Reading.

At first glance anyone would think it's a short express passenger train - until you notice the 3rd rail and carriage set number and realise you're on SR metals where the BR(S) headcodes overrule the BR standard lamp positions.

43xx 6337 (built 06/1921) must have had a shock (pun intended when it saw the 'modern' third rail - which is only 4 years younger as Guildford was electrified in 1925. Just to think the GW were churning out Victorian locomotives while the SR were electrifying lines....

 

[Osgood]

Please excuse this comment... to me it looks like three double slips in a row.

That being so, with two correct surely it would only be a single slip by Brian?

 

[simond]

the GW were churning out Victorian locomotives while the SR were electrifying lines

I can only suggest that the “Victorian“ locos must have been good enough.

(Maybe because the first batch of the class was built in 1910! - June 1910, so they’re not even Edwardian!!!)

Crocodiles, similarly, haven’t evolved much lately, as they too are masters of their domain.

 

[AJC]

I can only suggest that the “Victorian“ locos must have been good enough.

(Maybe because the first batch of the class was built in 1910! - June 1910, so they’re not even Edwardian!!!)

Crocodiles, similarly, haven’t evolved much lately, as they too are masters of their domain.

Mr Holcroft's moguls were better still when developed with modern valvegear, mounted outside the frames and fitted with better cabs... But a very effective design, it must be said.

Adam

 

[AndyB]

Please excuse this comment... to me it looks like three double slips in a row.

Yes -as shown by this picture which is part of a Youtube video by Geoff Burch


The third slip (on the right) appears to be a post-war alteration. All maps up to 1935 show only 2 slips.
Tim's photo taken from the end of the siding / headshunt marked by the dark circle (map from NLS maps)

Possibly linked to the reduction in traffic- or closure of the Guildford Park brick works? I haven't been able to find anything on-line to say when the works closed.

Andy

 

[John Duffy]

You do need to be a little careful in interpreting the NLS maps. They are a wonderful resource but they were not drawn by or for the railways and do contain numerous detail inaccuracies.

John

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for yours, Roger @Roger Pound . That date looks most likely so I'll use that as a "Probable".

Then @Dog Star , Tony @OzzyO and Andy @AndyB . Thanks for the comments about the double slips. I'm pretty convinced now that there are three in the photo, as shown in the one from Andy. Thanks for reminding us that we should view documents with caution, John @John Duffy

Also, Dave @Yorkshire Dave thanks for the details and corrections to Tim's comments. They'll be duly added/corrected to the info attached to the photos. Dave @Yorkshire Dave will be delighted to see a SR EMU... I'll not engage with the GWR loco discussion but Adam @AJC makes a valid point about the SR Moguls.

Four pictures here involving U Class 31625. The first shows the loco entering Guildford Station on 5th June 1962. (IMHO a really lovely shot). It was allocated to Guildford at the time and had been there since October 1953. Finally withdrawn in January 1964 it went to Woodham’s at Barry. Details of the loco in preservation can be found at 31625 (SR A625, SR 1625 & BR 31625)



These three pictures are from the train hauled by 31625 en route to Reading from Guildford on 5th June 1962. Precise locations are not provided.







Clearly from the train and probably the one hauled by 31625 is N Class 31812 at Campdown on a Reading to Guildford freight on 5th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Guildford from June 1959, then Exmouth Junction in August 1963. The SLS report it “To Western Region” in June 1964 but that did not involve a transfer and withdrawal was in June 1964. (SLS). On 19th October 1964 it was seen by RO on the way to Swansea East Dock. Then WHTS confirms it at Swansea East Dock on 7th November 1964 awaiting transfer to Bird’s at Morriston where BR Database advise a scrap date of December 1964.



Schools 30930 Radley at Sandhurst from the Reading to Guildford train on 5th June 1962. At the time it was allocated to Redhill and had been since February 1962. It moved to Brighton in December the same year but lasted a fortnight as it was withdrawn at the end of the month. (SLS). The SLS also report it at Eastleigh MPD on 11th September 1963 awaiting works or scrap and BR Database that the scrap date was in April 1964.



Brian