Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

I'm delighted to see that the Margate Railway has developed a small life of its own. On reviewing the photos I've noticed that the loco cab looks rather wonky. I suspect the driver has probably sat on it at some time...

@40057 probably recognised the first clue regarding the gauge, then Simon @simond established the location and Martin @Martin Shaw topped it off with the info that there were two miniature railways at Margate, complete with potted history. Thanks to you all.

Fairburn 2-6-4T 42070 on a down suburban train on the GC line at Northwick Park on 1st June 1962. 42070 was a Neasden engine from July 1960, moving to Cricklewood on the closure of Neasden Shed in June 1962 and finally Stoke in August 1964 where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s Great Bridge in September the same year. If I’d had the money this is the loco I’d have preserved – it was a regular on the Met trains and as I mentioned previously hauled the final official loco hauled LT Met line train on which I was a passenger with my father.



An unidentified Black 5 on an up Nottingham-Marylebone train at Northwick Park on 1st June 1962.



What we'd call in the trade an "establishing shot" - a lineside view at North Wembley on 1st June 1962.



Royal Scot 46156 The South Wales Borderer on a down express at North Wembley on 1st June 1962. It was a Holyhead engine from July 1960, Camden in March, Holyhead in May, Willesden in July and was one of the unfortunates which ended up at Annesley on the GCR in October, all in 1963. It was withdrawn from Annesley in October 1964. (SLS). It was finally at Drapers Hull where it met its end in February 1965. (WHTS). Specially for @Yorkshire Dave a Bakerloo Line train of 1938 stock (the Bakerloo shared the ex-LNW DC lines at this time as far as Watford but nowadays only to Harrow & Wealdstone) tries to catch up.



Brian

 

[timbowales]

Re the North Wembley picture, just look at those wonky street lamps!
Most of us modellers wouldn't plant them like that

 

[LarryG]

The leading coach and possibly the second coach behind Fairburn 42070 look to be LMS Period I non-corridors with much of the beading removed, as was common in BR days. However the sight of lining intrigued me as I didn't know that the Period I wood bodied 'suburban's' carried it.

 

[adrian]

An unidentified Black 5 on an up Nottingham-Marylebone train at Northwick Park on 1st June 1962.

Just curious onlooker - what is the line side furniture in front of the loco. It seems to be electrical conduit but why in 2 sections and the lights(?) next to it which to my untrained eye don't appear to be signalling apparatus.

 

[timbowales]

Just curious onlooker - what is the line side furniture in front of the loco. It seems to be electrical conduit but why in 2 sections and the lights(?) next to it which to my untrained eye don't appear to be signalling apparatus.

Adrian, I believe it is LU lineside signalling equipment?

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Just curious onlooker - what is the line side furniture in front of the loco. It seems to be electrical conduit but why in 2 sections and the lights(?) next to it which to my untrained eye don't appear to be signalling apparatus.

It's part of the LUL electrification and signalling system. One set will be for the Met Northbound fast and the other for the Met northbound slow.

Behind the train is the four track Met lines from Wembley Park to Harrow on the Hill. The lineside cabinets are a feature of the LUL along with the cable hangers.

A signal is just visible by the cabinet nearest the loco which is a fog repeater for the Met northbound fast.

This annotated 1:1,250/1:2,500 NLS OS extract shows the dispostion of the lines around Northwick Park where the photos were taken.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Specially for @Yorkshire Dave a Bakerloo Line train of 1938 stock (the Bakerloo shared the ex-LNW DC lines at this time as far as Watford but nowadays only to Harrow & Wealdstone) tries to catch up.

Thanks Brian, we just need a few more photos with Bakerloo and Met trains.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

An unidentified Black 5 on an up Nottingham-Marylebone train at Northwick Park on 1st June 1962.

If you were true GC it would be a down train....

 

[oldravendale]

Wonky street lights indeed, Tim. As you say, we'd be considered lazy if we put those on a layout.

Larry - thanks for yours. I'm not in a position to comment on the vagaries of the stock but those coaches certainly look as though they are lined.

You've asked a good question there, Adrian and Tim @timbowales and Dave @Yorkshire Dave have provided the answer. Regrettably, Dave, there are very few Bakerloo or Met trains in the collection. One crops up unexpectedly just occasionally. And as for the "up" and "down" on the GC... I fully understand the comment but you might like to expand the detail for those less well informed?

There will now be a brief intermission before I bring you the next exciting episode so that I can get all the details and attachments to go with the photos up to date. I suggest you Southern enthusiasts stand by (with a bit of GWR thrown in) before we get to the S & DR.

Brian

 

[Pete_S]

Re the North Wembley picture, just look at those wonky street lamps!
Most of us modellers wouldn't plant them like that

I've seen bent street lamps before, & they were usually opposite rather new buildings or gaps in terraces, so it might just be as a result of this:—


(Bomb Sight - Mapping the London Blitz)

Assuming I've got the location about right (extreme end of N. Wembley platform looking south), there is a footpath adjacent to the line. If that footpath was lit, that blast could be what pushed the post over.

Pete S.

 

[Overseer]

I've seen bent street lamps before, & they were usually opposite rather new buildings or gaps in terraces, so it might just be as a result of this:—

View attachment 221674
(Bomb Sight - Mapping the London Blitz)

Assuming I've got the location about right (extreme end of N. Wembley platform looking south), there is a footpath adjacent to the line. If that footpath was lit, that blast could be what pushed the post over.

Pete S.

Possible but I think a less exciting possibility is the more likely cause of the leaning lamp post. It looks like there has been some slumping of the soil in the cutting adjacent to the post resulting in a leaning lamp post.

 

[oldravendale]

Well, I brought all the extra stuff up to date so now we can move on.

An interesting thought Pete @Pete_S but I suspect @Overseer has probably nailed the possible reason for the lean.

A series of pictures here, all on 5th June 1962 and involving SECR H Class 31551. Details of the loco for the period of the photos are that it was a Three Bridges loco at the time, in fact from May 1961. In September 1962 it moved to Tunbridge Wells West and a year later to Three Bridges where it was withdrawn in January 1964. (SLS). The Railway Observer report it at Ward’s Briton Ferry for disposal and BR Database that the deed was done in July 1964.

In the first pair of pictures here we see the loco on the 11 am Three Bridges to East Grinstead train and in the second one the feature is the Maunsell vehicles converted to pull push set 600.





31551 on the 11am East Grinstead to Three Bridges train.



31551 positioning stock at Three Bridges prior to working the 11.55 to East Grinstead.



The Builders plate on H Class 0-4-4T 31551.



31551 at Three Bridges Station platform on the 11.55 to East Grinstead.



Rebuilt West Country 34101 Hartland on an Eastbourne to Birmingham train on 5th June 1962. It was a Bricklayers Arms loco at the time and had been since May 1961 but moved to Brighton in the month of this photo, Nine Elms a year later and Eastleigh in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in July 1966. (SLS). It went to Woodham Bros for scrap but never succumbed and details of its later life are at 34101 Hartland



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Three here of Standard Class 4MT 2-6-4T 80081 at East Grinstead on 5th June 1962 working the 2.30pm East Grinstead to Victoria train. This loco came to the Southern from the LMR at Willesden and BR Database report it at Stewarts Lane by the end of December 1959. It was at Weymouth Radipole in July 1963 and Bournemouth a month later where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in October the same year at Bird's, Morriston. (BR Database).







An unidentified C2X 0-6-0 on a freight going through Three Bridges on 5th June 1962. Except I believe it's a Q! The H Class on the pull push to East Grinstead is in the background. H & S would doubtless be delighted to see the sack barrow abandoned in the middle of the platform.



Schools 30911 Dover light engine at Redhill Station on 5th June 1962. It was allocated to Redhill from January 1962, then Brighton in December the same year where it was withdrawn later the same month. (SLS). The SLS also recorded that it was seen at Eastleigh awaiting Works or scrap in September 1963 and BR Database confirms a scrapping month of September 1963.



Brian

 

[simond]

Except I believe it's a Q

Me too. I’m no expert on Southern locos (or much else, truth be told) but I built a kit of one for the late Ken Stansfield in about 2005, and it looks like a Q to me.

 

[AJC]

Me too. I’m no expert on Southern locos (or much else, truth be told) but I built a kit of one for the late Ken Stansfield in about 2005, and it looks like a Q to me.

Yep, possibly 30543. That’s pushing the resolution a bit, but it did have the right sort of chimney and that repair to the tender; VIEW Steam loco Q 30543 Guildford

The subject is really the rather nice GWR shock high, W139350, lettered as return to West Bromwich. Note the ratchet lever guide and replacement plate front axleboxes, and unpainted plank on the door.

Adam

 

[daifly]

Three here of Standard Class 4MT 2-6-4T 80031 at East Grinstead on 5th June 1962 working the 2.30pm East Grinstead to Victoria train. It was allocated to Brighton in March 1952 and then Redhill in December 1963 before withdrawal in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Steel Supply Co, West Drayton, in March 1965. (BR Database).

Brian

Interesting though the info is on 80031, Tim's photos are of 80081!

I'll leave you to edit the history!

Dave

 

[76043]

So this must be the High-level station by the looks of the 1910 track plan shown on the disused stations website?

Disused Stations: East Grinstead High Level Station

disused-stations.org.uk

Tony

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Three here of Standard Class 4MT 2-6-4T 80031 at East Grinstead on 5th June 1962 working the 2.30pm East Grinstead to Victoria train. It was allocated to Brighton in March 1952 and then Redhill in December 1963 before withdrawal in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Steel Supply Co, West Drayton, in March 1965. (BR Database).

It's usually referred to as East Grinstead HL (High Level) to distinguish it from East Grinstead LL (Low Level). Of course today only the Low Level station exists.

80081's headcode is Tunbridge Wells West, Groombridge, Oxted and Victoria via Hever - there must have been a reason why this train is displaying this headcode and routed via East Grinstead HL. A single disc over the left buffer (as viewed) would be the usual for Tunbridge Wells West, East Grinstead HL and Victoria trains. Unless BR(S) introduced a new headcode, which is possible.

5th June 1962 was a Tuesday on which engineering works would not normally take place unless it was tied in with works to stations on the Oxted, Hever, Groombridge section where platforms were lengthened and the resiting and rebuilding of Ashurst.

 

[2-Bil]

Dave
It was Hurst Green that was resited/rebuilt 1961-62 not Ashurst. Only able to accommodate 2 coach trains Hurst Green Halt was demolished and resited the other side of the road bridge.
Respects
Brian W

 

[Roger Pound]

The portraits of 80031 do, I feel, show what handsome locos these 2-6-4T's were. A fitting final development stemming from the original LMS design by Fowler's team of 1927.
My knowledge of Southern locos is not great, but I would agree with the comments above that the loco at Three Bridges is a Q.

Roger