timbowales
Western Thunderer
Jan, if I zoom in on my iPad, half of where the stripe should be is obscured by that @#@##@# sign! However there appears to be a very old, faded, washed out lower half of a stripe towards the side door?
Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
Barry37
Western Thunderer
There might be a small part of a line, though it's still a bit doubtful when zoomed in to max in a new window with Firefox/Mac.
Seems to be a D1/105 riveted wagon, based on the LNER 16T mineral design: the British Railways' version gained top flaps over the side doors.
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
As you rightly say Brian almost unrecognisable today, I haven't been there for many a year however I think the three images #3116/7/8 are respectively Channelsea North Junc, Temple Mills East signal box and Coppermill Junc. Less certain about the last one to be honest and they are all open to question.
Regards
Martin
Regards
Martin
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Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
Here's a shot I took back in the late 80's/ early 90's ? I was truck driving at the time and was loading a box out of the then 'Stratford Lift' as it was known, a weeks break from driving back and forth to Italy.
Col.
Col.
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks Jan @Lyndhurstman , Tim @timbowales and Barry @Barry37 . How you chaps find such detail is beyond me but I'm so glad you do. It adds significantly to our prototype knowledge.
Those images shall be identified as you suggest - at least until someone comes up with an alternative, Martin @Martin Shaw . Thank you.
Thanks for yours too, Col. The one of Stratford is certainly a period piece.
The same loco as seen in posts #3817 and #3819, N7 69621, but now on the 5.30 to North Woolwich leaving Palace Gates on 31st May 1962.
On the same day a view of Palace Gates Station. It's so good to have this one but don't you wish there were a few more? It's interesting to me to see how the ramp is lifted over the signal wires/rodding. One wouldn't want to try to get a parcels trolley up there!
With less than a year to go before withdrawal Princess Coronation 46220, Coronation on the 6.50pm Euston to Birmingham train at Kensal Green on 1st June 1962. At the time it was allocated to Carlisle Upperby where it was withdrawn in April 1963. It was observed by the RO on the scrap road at Crewe Works on 12th May 1963 and BR Database records a scrap date of the same month.
Brian
Those images shall be identified as you suggest - at least until someone comes up with an alternative, Martin @Martin Shaw . Thank you.
Thanks for yours too, Col. The one of Stratford is certainly a period piece.
The same loco as seen in posts #3817 and #3819, N7 69621, but now on the 5.30 to North Woolwich leaving Palace Gates on 31st May 1962.
On the same day a view of Palace Gates Station. It's so good to have this one but don't you wish there were a few more? It's interesting to me to see how the ramp is lifted over the signal wires/rodding. One wouldn't want to try to get a parcels trolley up there!
With less than a year to go before withdrawal Princess Coronation 46220, Coronation on the 6.50pm Euston to Birmingham train at Kensal Green on 1st June 1962. At the time it was allocated to Carlisle Upperby where it was withdrawn in April 1963. It was observed by the RO on the scrap road at Crewe Works on 12th May 1963 and BR Database records a scrap date of the same month.
Brian
AJC
Western Thunderer
Maybe - though those had bottom doors, I think? No sign of any markings for those, and it's not clear enough to see the brake arrangements so it could easily be a BR 1/109, which was similar, but with single side Morton gear.
Adam
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
Brian
Re my last #3823, I have now found a pic of Coppermill Junc in 1959 with colour light signals so I have probably misidentified #3118. There is OHLE on the other line so it doesn't leave many options, probably need a rainy day for this one.
Martin
Re my last #3823, I have now found a pic of Coppermill Junc in 1959 with colour light signals so I have probably misidentified #3118. There is OHLE on the other line so it doesn't leave many options, probably need a rainy day for this one.
Martin
Barry37
Western Thunderer
The leading coach of the Palace Gates' train, appears to be an non-corridor LNER Thompson BT(4) Brake Third (D.340). These were built between 1948 and 1951, and had a guard's compartment at the end. This had two end windows (not visible in the photos). The "Luggage Van" section had two pairs of doors each side. The passenger part was four* compartments, each seating ten passengers.
* hence the 4 of BT(4)
The number appears to be E87092E, though this doesn't fit the "known numbers" on the Steve Banks .org website.
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
According to Michael Harris's book 'LNER Carriages' page 155 E87092 was built to order 1257 Dia.340, 52'-4" x 9'-3"built at York '49 .
Col.
readingtype
Active Member
Could it be that the images are out of sequence? I am wondering if the third photo is actually a little further around Channelsea Jct (ie, it's the second rather than the third). I can't think of other places on the route with a very sharp curve to the right, and it seems just about possible that the OHLE might have extended some way up the chord from the down GE main line onto the route towards Temple Mills. I never knew the area until I moved to London 12 years ago, so this is sheer conjecture. 'Unrecognisable' barely describes the changes, 'terraforming' might be more accurate!
Ben
readingtype
Active Member
Hmm, I take that back. I can see the roofs of houses. Tottenham?? I thought everything went south east to north west...
Ben
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks for continuing the review of that wagon, Adam @AJC and Barry @Barry37 .
Also to Martin @Martin Shaw for casting doubt on the location of that photo. As you say, perhaps a rainy day job. (I need a rainy day to get all these extra details up to date on the files attached to the photos!)
Barry @Barry37 and Col @Eastsidepilot - thanks for yours about the coaching stock. That's building up to a decent bit of info.
Then, many thanks to Ben @readingtype . I'm sorry to say that these photos may well be out of order. During scanning I was taking the negative strips out of the folders in the order in which I found them so more than likely not in sequence. It's fair to say that Tim's record keeping and filing were something only he would understand and pretty much unique.
To have spent time collecting everything in date and then negative order would have been a task too far for me. However, if needed I can go back to the negatives, all now filed under a unique img number and reassemble the film.
I'll be back later today with more pictures - just on my way to the local hospital to get my ears re-bored...
Brian
Also to Martin @Martin Shaw for casting doubt on the location of that photo. As you say, perhaps a rainy day job. (I need a rainy day to get all these extra details up to date on the files attached to the photos!)
Barry @Barry37 and Col @Eastsidepilot - thanks for yours about the coaching stock. That's building up to a decent bit of info.
Then, many thanks to Ben @readingtype . I'm sorry to say that these photos may well be out of order. During scanning I was taking the negative strips out of the folders in the order in which I found them so more than likely not in sequence. It's fair to say that Tim's record keeping and filing were something only he would understand and pretty much unique.
To have spent time collecting everything in date and then negative order would have been a task too far for me. However, if needed I can go back to the negatives, all now filed under a unique img number and reassemble the film.I'll be back later today with more pictures - just on my way to the local hospital to get my ears re-bored...
Brian
JimG
Western Thunderer
Nothing todo with Tim's photos (
), but I assume you mean wax removal. I've had to book a session with my local Specsavers for the same service - at a cost!!!. Don't GPs do it any more?Jim.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Hi Jim. I understand that GPs don't do ear wax removal any more. However the alternatives won't deal with mine because I'm already totally deaf in one ear and I suspect are concerned at the potential of damaging the one good ear I have. Well, less than good but better than nothing! I really don't understand the thinking. I'm pleased to say that the rebore has restored a reasonable level of hearing.
Anyway, on to the continuing saga of the photos. A couple of bonus ones here as well.
Rebuilt Jubilee 45735 Comet on a relief Perth and Oban train at North Wembley on 1st June 1962. The loco has been in these pages a few times previously and details were in post #1716. 45735 had been at Edge Hill but transferred officially to Willesden at the beginning of February 1962. It was one of the locos which ended up on the GC during its dying days being withdrawn from Annesley in October 1964. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was disposed of in January 1965. (BR Database)
Black 5 44771 on a down fitted freight at North Wembley on 1st June 1962. It was allocated to Rugby in July 1959, Nuneaton in June 1965, Holyhead a year later and Chester at the end of the same year. It was withdrawn in March 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen's, Morriston, in October 1967. (BR Database). The last vehicle of the train travelling in the opposite direction makes it appear as though the loco has a BR Standard type smoke deflector on one side! Perhaps I ought to try to paint that out.
Black 5 45097 on a down fitted freight at North Wembley on 1st June 1962. It was allocated to Carnforth in November 1965 and loaned to Crewe South at the end of April 1960 who returned it to Carnforth in the following July. It then went to Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1962 where it was withdrawn in June 1966. (SLS). The Railway Observer report it as being seen when it was cut up for scrap on 23rd October 1966 at Motherwell Machinery and Scrap.
I know nothing about these two bonus pictures and Tim left no comments but they accompanied the strip of film to which the three images above were attached so we must assume some time around June 1962. Further investigation (by looking at the loco tender) show these to be the Margate Miniature Railway and the loco is probably based on the LNER A3 Pacifics. As ever more details will be appreciated.
I've just found a bit more that will take us a little further. See https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/miniature-railway-at-dreamland-margate--611434086892471146/ We can therefore propose that this was or maybe still is a 15" gauge railway originally by Henry Greenly.
Brian
Anyway, on to the continuing saga of the photos.
A couple of bonus ones here as well.Rebuilt Jubilee 45735 Comet on a relief Perth and Oban train at North Wembley on 1st June 1962. The loco has been in these pages a few times previously and details were in post #1716. 45735 had been at Edge Hill but transferred officially to Willesden at the beginning of February 1962. It was one of the locos which ended up on the GC during its dying days being withdrawn from Annesley in October 1964. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was disposed of in January 1965. (BR Database)
Black 5 44771 on a down fitted freight at North Wembley on 1st June 1962. It was allocated to Rugby in July 1959, Nuneaton in June 1965, Holyhead a year later and Chester at the end of the same year. It was withdrawn in March 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen's, Morriston, in October 1967. (BR Database). The last vehicle of the train travelling in the opposite direction makes it appear as though the loco has a BR Standard type smoke deflector on one side! Perhaps I ought to try to paint that out.
Black 5 45097 on a down fitted freight at North Wembley on 1st June 1962. It was allocated to Carnforth in November 1965 and loaned to Crewe South at the end of April 1960 who returned it to Carnforth in the following July. It then went to Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1962 where it was withdrawn in June 1966. (SLS). The Railway Observer report it as being seen when it was cut up for scrap on 23rd October 1966 at Motherwell Machinery and Scrap.
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I know nothing about these two bonus pictures and Tim left no comments but they accompanied the strip of film to which the three images above were attached so we must assume some time around June 1962. Further investigation (by looking at the loco tender
) show these to be the Margate Miniature Railway and the loco is probably based on the LNER A3 Pacifics. As ever more details will be appreciated.I've just found a bit more that will take us a little further. See https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/miniature-railway-at-dreamland-margate--611434086892471146/ We can therefore propose that this was or maybe still is a 15" gauge railway originally by Henry Greenly.
Brian
I know nothing of the Margate railway, but the loco looks too small for 15” gauge (in relation to the size of the driver). It could be 10 1/4” gauge or some non-standard size between that and 15”. Mind you, Greenly’s later 15” gauge locos were 1/3rd full size on a roughly 1/4 size gauge track, so they were a lot too large for the gauge. If the loco was a scale representation, possibly it could be 15” gauge, but I still think it’s too small.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
simond
Western Thunderer
A rough scaling of the gauge compared to the driver’s right foot in the first photo suggests 10 1/4 to be far more plausible than 15”!
The location is almost certainly Margate harbour arm, on the top of the structure that covers the seaward side. Roughly where the red & white dotted line is, north of the parked cars and the “Harbo” of Harbour Arm
The street view has it! The wall at the top of the steps looks pretty convincing to me.
I suspect you'll be disappointed if you look for Margate “on the southeast coast”, it’s very definitely on the North coast of Kent!
atb
Simon
The location is almost certainly Margate harbour arm, on the top of the structure that covers the seaward side. Roughly where the red & white dotted line is, north of the parked cars and the “Harbo” of Harbour Arm
The street view has it! The wall at the top of the steps looks pretty convincing to me.
I suspect you'll be disappointed if you look for Margate “on the southeast coast”, it’s very definitely on the North coast of Kent!
atb
Simon
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
The confusion arises from the fact that there were two miniature railways in Margate.
Dreamland had a 15" gauge railway from 1920 until 1979 which was designed by Henry Greenly under the Narrow Gauge Railways umbrella along with W.J.Bassett Lowke and indeed the first locomotive was a Bassett Lowke class 10 Atlantic "Prince Edward of Wales" which still nominally exists although it's largely a replica. They later acquired a Barnes of Rhyl Atlantic "Billie" that has recently returned to it's town of origin for restoration to steam.
Tim's pictures show the Margate Pier & Harbour Co, a 10 1/4"gauge railway that ran for 230 yards along the pier. It existed from 1948 until 1963 and used an A3 outline pacific about which I know nothing I'm afraid.
Martin
Dreamland had a 15" gauge railway from 1920 until 1979 which was designed by Henry Greenly under the Narrow Gauge Railways umbrella along with W.J.Bassett Lowke and indeed the first locomotive was a Bassett Lowke class 10 Atlantic "Prince Edward of Wales" which still nominally exists although it's largely a replica. They later acquired a Barnes of Rhyl Atlantic "Billie" that has recently returned to it's town of origin for restoration to steam.
Tim's pictures show the Margate Pier & Harbour Co, a 10 1/4"gauge railway that ran for 230 yards along the pier. It existed from 1948 until 1963 and used an A3 outline pacific about which I know nothing I'm afraid.
Martin
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