Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

Not so Dave
The former Crewe North shedmaster Geoff Sands was appointed as Motive Power Officer SR South Western Division and and put forward a proposal to transfer some redundant Duchesses to the SR to assist the ailing Bulleid pacifics. Also 46236 City of Bradford worked between Waterloo and Exeter in the 1948 locomotive exchanges so its weight can't have been too awry for the Civil Engineer. I'm not certain where you got the weight of a Bulleid from, my info suggests an unrebuilt Merchant Navy and tender in working order as 142 1/2 tons.

Regards
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I'm not certain where you got the weight of a Bulleid from, my info suggests an unrebuilt Merchant Navy and tender in working order as 142 1/2 tons.

Thanks for the corrective information - As for the MN weight I pulled it off t'interweb at the time of my message.

I've since pulled out my copy of Bradley (pt 2) and states the initial weights in the order of the figure you have quoted around 144 to 147 tons. Then being reduced to around 94 tons after removal and replacement of various sections to reduce weight.

The former Crewe North shedmaster Geoff Sands was appointed as Motive Power Officer SR South Western Division and and put forward a proposal to transfer some redundant Duchesses to the SR to assist the ailing Bulleid pacifics.

I never knew this - learn something new every day. Out of curiosity during which period was Geoff Sands appointed? If during the early 1960s the pending Southampton/Bournemouth electrification may well have put paid to any proposals.


Certain Eastern section main line routes had weight restrictions as far as I know and I suppose my observation is rather academic as the 1959-61 Kent Coast electrification had already seen off a fair number of the larger steam locomotives by 1962/3 (a fate which occured 25-30 years earlier with the Central section main line, Sussex coast and Portsmouth main line electrifications between 1932 and 1937).

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Princess Coronation 46228 Duchess of Rutland is here on the down Northern Irishman reputedly at South Kenton on 29th May 1962 but this looks more like Headstone Lane to me. The loco had been allocated to Crewe North since July 1959 and was withdrawn from there in September 1964 (SLS) going to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in December the same year. (BR Database).

Definitely Headstone Lane. There's also a northbound Bakerloo Line train departing under the bridge - 1938 tube stock judging by it's height and profile.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Dave

I've since pulled out my copy of Bradley (pt 2) and states the initial weights in the order of the figure you have quoted around 144 to 147 tons. Then being reduced to around 94 tons after removal and replacement of various sections to reduce weight.

I fear some confusion may have arisen between an engine weight and an engine and tender weight. It would be going some to remove approx 50 tons and still retain a semblance of an engine.

I think Geoff Sands move to the southern would have been in 63, enough Stanier pacifics still in traffic to make it a reasonable proposition however I suspect it foundered on main works capability, Crewe certainly wouldn't want to be responsible for SReg locos and Eastleigh had no knowledge of them nor any spares holding so whilst it was a possibility from a running shed perspective I can see why it didn't happen.

Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I fear some confusion may have arisen between an engine weight and an engine and tender weight. It would be going some to remove approx 50 tons and still retain a semblance of an engine.

Thanks Martin - it all makes sense. I have a passing interest in steam engines, with my main preference being electric traction.

I think Geoff Sands move to the southern would have been in 63, enough Stanier pacifics still in traffic to make it a reasonable proposition however I suspect it foundered on main works capability, Crewe certainly wouldn't want to be responsible for SReg locos and Eastleigh had no knowledge of them nor any spares holding so whilst it was a possibility from a running shed perspective I can see why it didn't happen.

Thanks again, for the logical deduction.

 

[mickoo]

Trimming the coal on Princess Coronation 46239 City of Chester outside the station at Willesden Junction on 20th May 1961. It was a Camden engine from at least 1948 until September 1963 when it moved to Holyhead, then Willesden a month later and finally Crewe North in September 1964 before withdrawal within the month. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for disposal which was complete by the end of December (BR Database). The SLS agrees with these dates in approximate terms.

View attachment 220846

Brian

I do believe this is actually Camden not Willesden, the row of end on terraced houses are much like those at Camden, I don't think there were any houses this close to Willesden and the blurred foreground suggests it was taken from a moving train.

This would be the city end and the engine is turned ready to back down the bank to Euston.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I concur it's Camden. The road behind will be Gloucester Avenue, Primrose Hill - the buildings compare to streeview.

 

[mickoo]

This is one of those “shall I post it or shall I not?” photos. However it gave me the opportunity to do some advanced (for me) research. It’s clearly a Princess and described as being possibly in Crewe Works Yard. The date is 7th May 1961. Regrettably the fog bar (very few of Tim’s photos show evidence of fog) goes right through the number plate. The two photos following this one may give a clue in confirmation of the identity and location – note the lighting tower and OHLE gantry in the background. Is this more likely to be the shed or the Works? I’m suggesting it could be 46200 Princess Royal or 46209 Princess Beatrice – fortunately there are not so many Princesses that I couldn’t go through the record for each one in turn.

46209 was allocated to Crewe North in September 1960 (46200 July1959), was stored there in April 1961 and reinstated on 30th June 1961 (as was 46200, but we don’t know when it went in to store, although the SLS also records both to be in store at Edge Hill. On balance this is likely to be a number error – 8A being Edge Hill and 5A being Crewe North). However both locos were seen at Crewe on passenger duties on 20th June. In January 1962 46209 moved to Camden where it was withdrawn in September the same year (SLS), returning to Crewe Works where it was scrapped in November 1962. (BR Database). 46200 went to Carnforth in September 1961, Carlisle Upperby in January 1962 and Carlisle Kingmoor the following April where it was withdrawn in September. It was scrapped at J Connel, Coatbridge, in September 1964.

I suggest this information gives us two options. One is that the photo is actually at Crewe North shed with the loco in store or the date of 7th May 1961 is incorrect. In my opinion, notwithstanding the lack of accuracy of some quoted dates being more than a year out is unlikely. However, see the following two photos. Maybe this is Crewe Works Yard but I can’t work out whether the loco is more likely to be 46200 or 46209...

View attachment 220165

Due to the lighting gantry and OHLE in the background I’d put these two photos in the same location and on the same date as the Princess above. These are certainly Princess Coronation 46222 Queen Mary and double chimney Black 5 44765. I’ll deal with the Black 5 first.

View attachment 220166

View attachment 220167

This is one of the above shots printed a bit darker to show the OHLE and possible lighting tower more clearly.
Brian

These are not Crewe North which was predominately curved around toward the Chester lines, nor did Crewe North have those light towers and neither did the works, besides, stored engines did not clutter up the works. Going by the OLHE and light towers then this is Crewe South which was used to store engines frequently.

As for the Princess Royal engine number, it's a single line name plate so that cuts it down and that feed pipe under the footplate cuts a jaunty angle, most are straight but that one has a distinctive fall to it and i doubt there will be many like that. If I get a chance later this week I'll go though my photos and books and should be able to narrow it down a bit more.

 

[mickoo]

These are not Crewe North which was predominately curved around toward the Chester lines, nor did Crewe North have those light towers and neither did the works, besides, stored engines did not clutter up the works. Going by the OLHE and light towers then this is Crewe South which was used to store engines frequently.

As for the Princess Royal engine number, it's a single line name plate so that cuts it down and that feed pipe under the footplate cuts a jaunty angle, most are straight but that one has a distinctive fall to it and i doubt there will be many like that. If I get a chance later this week I'll go though my photos and books and should be able to narrow it down a bit more.

Okay, that wasn't so hard, it's 46212 stored at Crewe south June 61, note rag hanging over footplate just ahead of cylinder block which matches Tim's photo.

Crewe South 5B. by Keith Long, on Flickr

 

[oldravendale]

Ooh. Great! Such a lot here to get my teeth in to.

Dave @Yorkshire Dave . Your comment is entirely reasonable but I'm pleased to see that I'm not going senile yet! Thanks to Martin @Martin Shaw for the background and confirmation. It seems a great shame that, if the use of the Princess Coronations on other regions was seriously considered they must have been in reasonable nick but the lack of work caused them to be scrapped before their time. I'll say no more on the subject except to just slip in 9Fs as another case in point.

And Larry - your comments are IMHO probably entirely correct. However I bet that would have made no difference to the way in which "foreign" locos were accepted and treated.

Thanks also, Dave @Yorkshire Dave for your confirmation of the location for that photo of 46228. It confirms the location of a few other pictures as well.

Mick @mickoo . I'm in your debt again, not only for correcting the location of the "trimming coal" photo but also for identifying location and loco at Crewe South. I spent ages looking up alternatives for the loco and thought I'd done a reasonable bit of sleuthing but you've come up with the proof of the loco and location yet again.

All in all from my perspective a wonderful set of comments which correct otherwise questionable info. I'll spend a happy hour or two updating everything!

Black 5 44895 on a down Rugby train on 29th May 1962 at either Headstone Lane or the disputed South Kenton. The loco had been allocated to Newton Heath since at least 1948 and moved to Trafford Park in November or December 1964 where it was withdrawn in December 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Draper’s, Hull (RO) on 10th June 1968 (WHTS).

Latest confirmation is that this is, indeed, Headstone Lane.



South Kenton on 29th May 1962 with Black 5 44713 on a down fitted freight. The Black 5 was allocated to Crewe South in June 1958, Northampton in December 1962, Chester in July and Stoke in October 1964 and finally Lostock Hall in July 1967 where it was withdrawn at the end of steam in August 1968. (SLS). It went to Draper’s, Hull (RO) where it was cut up on 12th March 1969 (WHTS).

Another now confirmed to be Headstone Lane



Fairburn 2-6-4T 42100 on an up parcels at South Kenton on 29th May 1962. This was a Watford engine at the time and had been since December 1959, moving to Crewe North in June 1962 and back to Watford in December where it was withdrawn in March 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Derby Works by the end of May 1963. (Rail UK).

I suspect that this may be Headstone Lane as well, looking in the opposite direction to the station.



Brian

 

[76043]

So I was thinking there's not much on that fitted freight of interest, then bang, the one coach parcels train on the WCML! Plus four differing minerals, one wood, welded, rivetted and slope sided. Obviously there were more off shot, but still nice to see.
Tony

 

[Barry37]

So I was thinking there's not much on that fitted freight of interest, then bang, the one coach parcels train on the WCML! Plus four differing minerals, one wood, welded, rivetted and slope sided. Obviously there were more off shot, but still nice to see.
Tony

On the extreme left of the fitted freight train, there's another wood-bodied ex-PO wagon. Just above it, and with a chance camera position making it seem part of the wagon, there's part of a sign. This is for the large London coal merchants, Rickett ,Cockerell Ltd. (owned by Wm. Cory). They had an office at Railway Wharf, Headstone Lane *. The sign is probably on the roof of their office, or perhaps could be a lorry.
Rickett, Cockerell was taken over by Charringtons in 1968, according to Grace's Guide.

* from University of Leicester "special collections" - assume it's a page of Kelly's Directory for Pinner.

 

[Barry37]

Ooh. Great! Such a lot here to get my teeth in to.

Dave @Yorkshire Dave . Your comment is entirely reasonable but I'm pleased to see that I'm not going senile yet! Thanks to Martin @Martin Shaw for the background and confirmation. It seems a great shame that, if the use of the Princess Coronations on other regions was seriously considered they must have been in reasonable nick but the lack of work caused them to be scrapped before their time. I'll say no more on the subject except to just slip in 9Fs as another case in point.

And Larry - your comments are IMHO probably entirely correct. However I bet that would have made no difference to the way in which "foreign" locos were accepted and treated.

Thanks also, Dave @Yorkshire Dave for your confirmation of the location for that photo of 46228. It confirms the location of a few other pictures as well.

Mick @mickoo . I'm in your debt again, not only for correcting the location of the "trimming coal" photo but also for identifying location and loco at Crewe South. I spent ages looking up alternatives for the loco and thought I'd done a reasonable bit of sleuthing but you've come up with the proof of the loco and location yet again.

All in all from my perspective a wonderful set of comments which correct otherwise questionable info. I'll spend a happy hour or two updating everything!

Black 5 44895 on a down Rugby train on 29th May 1962 at either Headstone Lane or the disputed South Kenton. The loco had been allocated to Newton Heath since at least 1948 and moved to Trafford Park in November or December 1964 where it was withdrawn in December 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Draper’s, Hull (RO) on 10th June 1968 (WHTS).

Latest confirmation is that this is, indeed, Headstone Lane.

View attachment 221240

South Kenton on 29th May 1962 with Black 5 44713 on a down fitted freight. The Black 5 was allocated to Crewe South in June 1958, Northampton in December 1962, Chester in July and Stoke in October 1964 and finally Lostock Hall in July 1967 where it was withdrawn at the end of steam in August 1968. (SLS). It went to Draper’s, Hull (RO) where it was cut up on 12th March 1969 (WHTS).

Another now confirmed to be Headstone Lane

View attachment 221241

Fairburn 2-6-4T 42100 on an up parcels at South Kenton on 29th May 1962. This was a Watford engine at the time and had been since December 1959, moving to Crewe North in June 1962 and back to Watford in December where it was withdrawn in March 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Derby Works by the end of May 1963. (Rail UK).

I suspect that this may be Headstone Lane as well, looking in the opposite direction to the station.

View attachment 221242

Brian

The footbridge and the end of the sidings matches that NW of Headstone Lane station. The right hand end of the bridge leads to Chantry Place, then to Headstone Lane itself. (from theundergroundmap.com - 1950 map)

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Tony @76043 . No wonder the railways were losing money, eh?

A good bit of sleuthing there, Barry @Barry37 . I'd certainly not seen the Reckitt Cockerell sign and that's of interest. I also appreciate your confirmation of the location of the footbridge. All much appreciated.

Stanier 2-6-4T 42616 on a down Tring and Bletchley train at South Kenton/Northwick Park on 29th May 1962. This had been a Watford engine since September 1961 and moved to Willesden in April, Stoke in July and Carnforth in September 1965, Birkenhead Mollington Street in March 1966 and Low Moor in June 1967 where it was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It went to Drapers of Hull (RO) where it was scrapped on18th March 1968 (WHTS).



Jubilee 45602 British Honduras on a down special at South Kenton/Northwick Park on 29th May 1962. By March 1962 it was allocated to Newton Heath, then Holbeck in April, Wakefield in September and back to Holbeck in October, all in 1964, before withdrawal in March 1965. (SLS and BR Database). It went to Draper’s in Hull for disposal (RO) which was completed on 2nd July 1965 (WHTS).



One of Tim's less conventional shots. Now preserved Royal Scot 4-6-0 46115 Scots Guardsman in a view to the north of Willesden Junction on 30th May 1962. At this time home shed was Longsight and had been since August 1961. It went from there to Springs Branch (Wigan) in June 1964, Carlisle Upperby in August and Carlisle Kingmoor in November – all in the same year where it was withdrawn in January 1966. (SLS). I understand it was bought direct from BR and moved initially to the KWVR but is now based at Carnforth in running condition. 46115 Scots Guardsman (LMS 6115 & BR 46115)



I remasked for this second version but I’m not sure it suits the subject!



Brian

 

[Sheffield]

I believe one of the reasons why the Stanier 4-6-2s were not found alternative work was their comparatively small water capacity. The WCML had plenty of troughs so LMS class 8 carried less water. I think this was why A4s were preferred for the Aberdeen trains.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Hmm. Not really certain this theory holds water. Both classes worked long trains single handedly from London to Edinburgh and Glasgow. The water capacity of a Duchess is 4000 gallons and an A4 5000 gallons so whilst their is a significant deficit for the LMS comparatively it doesn't seem to have made an actual difference. The mileage from Glasgow to Aberdeen is around 120, probably a bit less when the the Strathmore route was still open and I would expect either class to comfortably work an 8 car train over that distance without needing to take water and there were no troughs on that route, although it was available at Crieff Junc and Perth if required. Certainly given the option I would rather have the greater water capacity but I suspect that St Rollox and Ferryhill crews just found an A4 rather easier on the muscles than a Duchess.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Martin @Martin Shaw and @Sheffield - that's an interesting debate and not one that's crossed my mind previously. The A4s certainly did sterling service in Scotland as their swan song. Tim has a few delightful colour shots of them which will appear on here - one day.

Depending, I suppose, on your perspective this is a railway which no longer exists - certainly as it appears here.

L1 67735 on a North Woolwich train at Stratford Low Level on 31st May 1962. It was allocated to Stratford when new in 1948 where it was withdrawn in September 1962. It went to Doncaster Works where it was scrapped (All SLS). There is no date recorded.



A view from the 5.5pm Stratford Low Level to Palace Gates hauled by N7 0-6-2T 69621 on 31st May 1962. 69621 is an N7/1 rebuilt to an N7/4 in 1946. It had been a Stratford engine since September 1959 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). This was the last loco built at Stratford Works in 1923 and is now preserved and under restoration at the East Anglian Railway Museum. 69621 (GER 999E, LNER 7999, LNER 9621 & BR 69621)



A view of Stratford MPD from the 5.5pm Stratford Low Level to Palace Gates train with B12 61572 in evidence on 31st May 1962. Note that coach in the background too (not the EMU, the one alongside the building). The B2 was allocated to Norwich Thorpe in October 1959 and withdrawn in September 1961. (SLS). Now in preservation see 61572 (LNER 8572, LNER 7486, LNER 1572 & BR 61572) for details.

View now considered to be of Stratford Works.



Brian

 

[mickoo]

A view of Stratford MPD from the 5.5pm Stratford Low Level to Palace Gates train with B12 61572 in evidence on 31st May 1962. Note that coach in the background too (not the EMU, the one alongside the building). The B2 was allocated to Norwich Thorpe in October 1959 and withdrawn in September 1961. (SLS). Now in preservation see 61572 (LNER 8572, LNER 7486, LNER 1572 & BR 61572) for details.

View attachment 221368

Brian

I think you'll find this is actually Stratford works as opposed to the running shed, those are the workshop halls to the left and there's an ER EMU sat there in the sidings.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Mick. I was lucky enough to visit Stratford Works and Shed twice in steam/transition days but could never quite work out the relationship between the low level lines and the works. In fact I may even have a photo of a pair of diesels (later class 31) beside the most prominent building. (Just looked at the photo and it's not the same building. Photo is dated 1960!) However I agree the buildings in the photo are more likely to be the works so will consider them as such forthwith.

This is N7/5 69646 said to be at Stratford MPD but possibly the Works from the 5.5pm Stratford Low Level to Palace Gates train on 31st May 1962 hauled, as in post #3817 above, by 69621. One o' they there new fangled diesel units behind. 69646 was a Stratford engine and had been since 1948 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in September 1962. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Stratford Works by the end of January 1963. (Rail UK).



Three here from the 5.5pm Stratford Low Level to Palace Gates train as views "of the line to Palace Gates". Regrettably Tim gives no details of the individual locations. Loco is again N7 69621.








Fascinating photos of an area entirely unrecognisable nowadays.

Brian

 

[Lyndhurstman]

A lovely image of Stratford works. Thank you. It might be a trick of the light, but that mineral doesn’t seem to have a diagonal stripe. Or at least, it doesn’t on my phone!

Always a source of fascination, this thread. Thanks to you, and all the knowledge provided.

Cheers

Jan