Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Yorkshire Dave]

I hadn't noticed them till you pointed them out - They look very much like the posts carrying LT high voltage cables. Would that piece of railway once have been part of the planned 1935 LT Northern Heights extensions?

I don't recall reading about part of the Gospel Oak-South Tottenham-Barking line becoming part of the LT Northern Heights extension - just the ex-LNER line from Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace and of course the extension from Edgware to Bushey.

However, we do know some works took place on the Finsbury Park-Highgate section and substations were built at Crouch End and Muswell Hill in readiness for extension.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, David for the question about the tender pipes. Thanks then to Yorkshire Dave and Martin for your responses. All incorporated in to a pdf to preserve the info and photo (duly endorsed "copyright".

Barry - thanks for yours about the 9Fs.

David W - Such a short question but such an interesting response, so again thanks to Arun and Yorkshire Dave. All now in a pdf which I'll publish once I'm confident there's no more forthcoming on the subject.

B1 61159 on a down Cleethorpes train at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This was allocated to Immingham in June 1954 and withdrawn from there in September 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped in November the same year at Cashmore's, Great Bridge. (BR Database).



A3 60110 Robert the Devil on the Tees-Tyne Pullman arrival at Kings Cross on 26th July 1961. It's carrying a 34A Kings Cross shed plate where it had been allocated since July 1957 and from where it was withdrawn in May 1963. (SLS). It entered Doncaster Works on 11th June 1963 where it was cut up in the same month. (Yeadons and WHTS). I don't have details of when the smoke deflectors were fitted.



A1 60133 Pommern on the 6.12 Leeds Departure from Kings Cross on 26th July 1961. This had been a Copley Hill, Leeds engine since June 1950, went to Ardsley in September 1964 and was withdrawn from there in June 1965. (SLS). It was sold to Clayton & Davie, Dunston for scrap in August 1965. (BR Database).



In Germany on the Rheine - Emden excursion in March 1974 are a series of shed scenes and a cracker of a shot of the driver of one of the locos at Emden. Very Teutonic!











As these shots demonstrate Tim was not scared to take what we'd now consider art shots and in many cases these are possibly the most interesting. I guess that, for some reason or another all those of us with cameras at the time took one shot of a fire grate, although rarely with a fire in it! My personal one was on a rebuilt West Country.

Brian

 

[michael080]

that impressive picture of the man on the left side of the engine is actually the fireman. German rail system is driving on the right side, so the driver stands on the right side . His right hand rests on the central lube system, the "Bosch Öler". The pipes coming from this device can be seen running parallel on the boiler side of many German locos. His left hand rests on the valve that operates water spray in the ash pan. The handle on the far right opens the firehole, so this is likely a coal fired engine, oil fired engines have a cover with only a small hole to control the fire.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Michael. That's a hugely impressive and helpful amount of info in that single paragraph. It would be surprising if this were not a coal burner I suppose as it's at Emden and most if not all the locos photographed here are burning coal. I'm guessing that these locos had mechanical stokers - a boiler the size of those 2-10-0s must have had a hungry firebox.

Back to the Southern today.

Schools Class 30927 Clifton on an up express at Wimbledon on 29th July 1961. It was allocated to Nine Elms in March 1961 and withdrawn in January 1962. (SLS). The Railway Observer report that it arrived at Eastleigh Works in February or March 1962 and BR Database gives a scrapping month as March.



Standard Class 5 4-6-0 73086 The Green Knight on an up Bournemouth train at Wimbledon on 29th July 1961. It was allocated to Nine Elms from June 1959 and withdrawn from there in October 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport in March 1967. (BR Database).



Merchant Navy 35026 Lamport and Holt Line on the up Atlantic Coast Express at Wimbledon on 29th July 1961. At the time of the photo it was allocated to Exmouth Junction and had been there since May 1959. It then went to Nine Elms in March 1964 and Weymouth Radipole in September the same year where it was withdrawn in March 1967. (SLS and BR Database). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport, in September 1967. (BR Database).



Germany and this is Meppen Güterbahnhof in March 1974.



Continuing the Rheine - Emden trip in March 1974 four shots here of coal fired 2-10-0 044 199-8 at Meppen.









Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

60110 A southern ECML engine in its A3 form, Grantham 11/10/42, Kings X 27/10/46, Grantham 9/9/51, Kings X 16/6/57, Wdn 23/5/63.
Witte deflectors fitted 7/61 so almost immediately before the pic was taken. It was the only A1/A3 to keep the same tender for all of it's days.

30927 B Arms 12/5/51, Feltham 10/2/61, Nine Elms 18/3/61, Wdn 1/62, Stored Eastleigh Works 1-2/62, cut up Eastleigh 21/4/62.
Martin

 

[David Waite]

In the first photo of today with the School’s Class loco passing, what looks like those concrete
posts with the empty curved brackets I asked about earlier but this time supporting very ragged cables of sorts.

David.

 

[simond]

I'm with Arun on this, it's a cable, I'd guess it's traction power.

 

[AJC]

In the first photo of today with the School’s Class loco passing, what looks like those concrete
posts with the empty curved brackets I asked about earlier but this time supporting very ragged cables of sorts.

David.

The cables would be for signalling I think. Traction cabling always seems to be on the ground.

I’m a bit confused about the route indicators on the Schools though as all the online sources give routes that 1. Sound like transfer freights (Hither Green to Feltham by a couple of different ways), and 2. Don’t obviously seem to pass through Wimbledon.

Adam

 

[Ressaldar]

Hi Adam,

I think that the centre 'disc' - the one between the 9o/clock & 3 o/clock ones, is just carrying the reporting number and to me does not have a white background, which leaves three white discs which is for Waterloo to Lymington Pier. The Standard Class 5 in the following photograph has a similar arrangement carrying the reporting number as well.

I agree with you regarding the cable clips.

regards

Mike

 

[AJC]

Hi Adam,

I think that the centre 'disc' - the one between the 9o/clock & 3 o/clock ones, is just carrying the reporting number and to me does not have a white background, which leaves three white discs which is for Waterloo to Lymington Pier. The Standard Class 5 in the following photograph has a similar arrangement carrying the reporting number as well.

I agree with you regarding the cable clips.

regards

Mike

It wasn't the reporting number that confused me - I can well see what that was (and no lamp iron to take it). A Waterloo to Lymington Pier service makes much more sense - but I couldn't find an appropriate reference online for that arrangement in BR days.

Adam

 

[Ressaldar]

Hi Adam,

I used my Ian Allan ABC "British Railways Headcodes" book by M R Bailey ISBN 0 7110 2696 3, originally published in 1961, mine is the 1999 reprint a handy little guide.

regards

Mike

 

[simond]

The cables would be for signalling I think. Traction cabling always seems to be on the ground..

Adam

thanks Adam,

I was initially a little surprised to see only 1 cable, but its not LU so only third rail. I’ve seen lots of traction cable on the ground, but I’m fairly sure I’ve seen some on racks too.

cheers
Simon

 

[Charles Eric]

57XX pannier tank 9784 on a down van train at Old Oak Common on 1st August 1961. This was a long term resident of Old Oak, having lived there since at least 1947. (BR Database). It was withdrawn at the end of May 1963 and unusually, although not uniquely, went to Plaistow Shed where it was scrapped by Mumford Ltd by the end of January 1964. (Rail UK).

I've just been looking at variations for my Banana Vans having built a late BR one, a Ratio kit as supplied and converted a whitemetal SR kit to yellow spot.
My modelling is set around the time that the vans were going over from Steam Heat to better insulation so I wanted a few older types to mix in.
The Ratio/Parkside kit will provide a basis LMS / early BR types but from photos the planking and strapping only really fits about 50 vans. Addition of the cladding over the steam pipes is just a matter of some styrene strip.

Looking at the photo it appears that the first van is probably 1/241 with 9ft underframe and 8-shoe brakes. These are the only 9ft ones I have found so far with yellow spots. Early Faverdale builds had narrower planking than the LMS vans they were based on.
Second and third vans look like late lots of 1/242. These have the same corner plate but longer diagonal strapping than the LMS and early BR bodies
The fourth and fifth vans look like 1/243 which had angle iron diagonal straps and extra corner plates. Diagram 1/244 was similar but had BR 8-shoe brakes.

Eric

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Martin for the additional information about the A3 and the Schools. Then David, Simon, Adam and Mike for further thoughts about the cable brackets.

Adam and Mike thanks for the headcode comments. I remember that the Schools were used quite often on the Lymington Pier trains at around this time.

Eric - thank you too for the details about the vans. This information is really helpful in expanding the value of the photos.

Urie S15 30499 on a down Basingstoke train at Wimbledon on 29th July 1961. This was a Feltham engine from at least 1948 and was withdrawn in January 1964. (BR Database and SLS). It went to Woodham's at Barry and escaped in 1983. For further details in preservation see 30499 (LSWR 499, SR E499, SR 499 & BR 30499)



Lord Nelson 30854 Howard of Effingham on an up Bournemouth train at Wimbledon on 29th July 1961. It had been on the Eastleigh allocation since February 1950 and was withdrawn on 9th September 1961. (SLS). According to the Railway Observer it was scrapped at Eastleigh by the end of the same month.



Modified Hall 6962 Soughton Hall and a WD inside Old Oak Common Shed on 18th June 1961. There's a conflict here between the record of the SLS and BR Database as far as 6962 is concerned. The SLS advises it was at St Philips Marsh since February 1946 and was withdrawn from there in February 1963. BR Database agrees with the allocation to St Philips Marsh from March 1946, then to Old Oak Common in September where it was withdrawn in January 1963. Railway Observer agrees with a withdrawal date of January 1963 and WHTS that it then went to Swindon for disposal where it was cut up on 15th June 1963. BR Database records a scrapping date of May 1963.



Sorry for those expecting some from Germany but I've run out of time. Hope to do some more tomorrow.

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

A few things working backwards. A major issue with 6962 Soughton Hall, both Irwell Book of and Longworth (post nationalistion) have it as follows,
4/44 Bristol Bath Road, 2/11/46 Old Oak Common, Wdn 7/1/63, Cut up 15/6/63. I suspect someone has got their Bristol depots muddled, and someone else has copied them.

30854 10/28 Nine Elms, 6/32 Stewarts Lane, 27/2/40 Nine Elms, 24/2/43 Bournemouth, 8/1/49 Eastleigh, Wdn 9/9/61, Cut up w/e 30/9/61.

30499 /21 Nine Elms, /40 Feltham, 11/41 Old Oak Common (GWR), 3/43 Feltham, Wdn 1/64. Both Irwell Book of.

Concrete posts with brackets. These are firmly part of the traction supply and nothing to do with S&T functions. It should however be remembered that whilst DC cables carrying 600 volts or thereabouts are often lying on the ground it is necessary to feed the rotary converters and later mercury arc rectifiers in substations with high voltage AC current. On the former LSWR lines this was done by 3 phase cables at 11Kv from Durnsford Road power station and there was certainly one of these cables at Wimbledon, which went to New Malden where it split to feed the Kingston Loop and Hampton Court Junc where there were sub-stations. The policy of Sir Herbert Walker and Alfred Raworth was to do this as economically as possible hence concrete posts almost certainly made at Exmouth Junc concrete plant, and fixed to the front of Wimbledon B signal box. There was a distinctive brick housing where a cable went underground and one can be seen in IMG#2603 to the left of the locomotive beside the track.

Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Martin - Thank you for so much helpful stuff again. I was in the midst of writing this post when yours arrived so I'll review in detail once this is posted but it will most certainly be included in the discussions accompanying the photos.

A4 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower backing down to Kings Cross on 19th June 1961. At the time of the photo this was a Kings Cross engine and had been since October 1957. It moved to New England in June 1963 and was withdrawn in July the same year. On 27th April 1964 it was shipped to the USA and is now in the museum at Green Bay, Wisconsin. See 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower (LNER 4496, LNER 598, LNER 8 & BR 60008)



This is described as the Royal Train returning from York hauled by A4 60003 Andrew K McCosh at Hornsey Sation on 19th June 1961. Is that a dynamometer car behind the tender or part of the Royal Train consist? 60003 had been a Kings Cross engine since 1957 and was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster in January 1963. (BR Database).



Black 5 45146 Willesden on shed on 18th June 1961. This belonged to Bescot in 1961, went to Stoke in March 1963 and was withdrawn from there in June 1965. (SLS). It was disposed of at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, by the end of December 1965. (BR Database).



Back to Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974 and an unidentified pacific passes at Meppen on a passenger train. I suspect of particular interest here will be the little loco peaking in on the left hand side of the photo. Details of the type and use thereof will be valued.



Another interesting series of shots featuring oil fired 2-8-2 042 271-7 on a breakdown train at Meppen in the Germany Rheine - Emden series of March 1974.











Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

Thank you Martin for the additional information about the A3 and the Schools. Then David, Simon, Adam and Mike for further thoughts about the cable brackets.

Adam and Mike thanks for the headcode comments. I remember that the Schools were used quite often on the Lymington Pier trains at around this time.

Eric - thank you too for the details about the vans. This information is really helpful in expanding the value of the photos.

Urie S15 30499 on a down Basingstoke train at Wimbledon on 29th July 1961. This was a Feltham engine from at least 1948 and was withdrawn in January 1964. (BR Database and SLS). It went to Woodham's at Barry and escaped in 1983. For further details in preservation see 30499 (LSWR 499, SR E499, SR 499 & BR 30499)

View attachment 208647

Lord Nelson 30854 Howard of Effingham on an up Bournemouth train at Wimbledon on 29th July 1961. It had been on the Eastleigh allocation since February 1950 and was withdrawn on 9th September 1961. (SLS). According to the Railway Observer it was scrapped at Eastleigh by the end of the same month.

View attachment 208648

Modified Hall 6962 Soughton Hall and a WD inside Old Oak Common Shed on 18th June 1961. There's a conflict here between the record of the SLS and BR Database as far as 6962 is concerned. The SLS advises it was at St Philips Marsh since February 1946 and was withdrawn from there in February 1963. BR Database agrees with the allocation to St Philips Marsh from March 1946, then to Old Oak Common in September where it was withdrawn in January 1963. Railway Observer agrees with a withdrawal date of January 1963 and WHTS that it then went to Swindon for disposal where it was cut up on 15th June 1963. BR Database records a scrapping date of May 1963.

View attachment 208649

Sorry for those expecting some from Germany but I've run out of time. Hope to do some more tomorrow.

Brian

Note the straight firebox handrail and the tall top feed cover on this WD - as you would expect perhaps for a WR engine.

 

[Wagonman]

Martin - Thank you for so much helpful stuff again. I was in the midst of writing this post when yours arrived so I'll review in detail once this is posted but it will most certainly be included in the discussions accompanying the photos.

A4 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower backing down to Kings Cross on 19th June 1961. At the time of the photo this was a Kings Cross engine and had been since October 1957. It moved to New England in June 1963 and was withdrawn in July the same year. On 27th April 1964 it was shipped to the USA and is now in the museum at Green Bay, Wisconsin. See 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower (LNER 4496, LNER 598, LNER 8 & BR 60008)

View attachment 208680

This is described as the Royal Train returning from York hauled by A4 60003 Andrew K McCosh at Hornsey Sation on 19th June 1961. Is that a dynamometer car behind the tender or part of the Royal Train consist? 60003 had been a Kings Cross engine since 1957 and was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster in January 1963. (BR Database).

View attachment 208681

Black 5 45146 Willesden on shed on 18th June 1961. This belonged to Bescot in 1961, went to Stoke in March 1963 and was withdrawn from there in June 1965. (SLS). It was disposed of at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, by the end of December 1965. (BR Database).

View attachment 208682

Back to Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974 and an unidentified pacific passes at Emden on a passenger train. I suspect of particular interest here will be the little loco peaking in on the left hand side of the photo. Details of the type and use thereof will be valued.

View attachment 208684

Another interesting series of shots featuring oil fired 2-8-2 042 271-7 on a breakdown train at Emden in the Germany Rheine - Emden series of March 1974.

View attachment 208685

View attachment 208686

View attachment 208687

View attachment 208688

View attachment 208689

Brian

The tiny shunter was known as a Köf. DB Class Köf III - Wikipedia

 

[Roger Pound]

The tiny shunter was known as a Köf. DB Class Köf III - Wikipedia

Further to the above, these tiny locos were immensely powerful for their size and I have a lasting memory of a later version of one of these units, Br 333 018-1 hauling Br110 278-9 plus ten bogie coaches out the platform road at Dusseldorf Hbf some time back in the late 1980's. The job was done with no apparent effort by the little unit - all in a days work, but fascinating to see. I also photographed the occurrence although, regrettably, I am not able to publish it as transferring 6"x 4" hard prints is beyond my skill set with my present equipment, although I keep meaning to work on it when time permits. (Which so far it has dismally failed to do .)

Kofs of Br333 abounded at Dusseldorf Hbf during my visits there in the 1980's and 1990's. These later units were out-sourced from Gmeinder, Orenstein and Koppel and Jung from 1959 and were powered by a MWM RHS 518A KaebleMD 140 unit with hydraulic transmission.

These visits came to a close with the passing of my dear friend who lived in the city in the late 1990's. Fortunately, I have an abundance of photographs to remind me of those happy days!

Roger.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Back to Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974 and an unidentified pacific passes at Emden on a passenger train. I suspect of particular interest here will be the little loco peaking in on the left hand side of the photo. Details of the type and use thereof will be valued.

The steam locomotive is a Br 012 pacific (012 = Oil burner)

The Kleinlok to the left to be precise is a Köf II. Originally designed in 1932 for one man operation i.e. the Rangier (shunter).

The designation Köf comes from K = Kleinlok, Ö = Ölfeuerung (oil powered) and F = Flüssigkeitsgetriebe (hydraulic transmission). There were 3 designations depending on power and all were different.

Köf I up to 50hp/37kW (Benedictus - Wikipedia)


Köf II 90hp/67kW (M. Schiebel - Bahnbilder)


Köf III 240hp/180kW (D Illingworth - i.e. one of mine taken at Dortmund)