Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
It's not just me who gets it wrong, the second sentence in the caption to a photograph in "Railways around Manchester" published by The Transport Treasury rather demonstrably illustrates my comment a few days back about the lack of editors and proof reading in book production, although I do wonder how this error crept through.
Martin
IMG_2050.JPG
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
It's not just me who gets it wrong, the second sentence in the caption to a photograph in "Railways around Manchester" published by The Transport Treasury rather demonstrably illustrates my comment a few days back about the lack of editors and proof reading in book production, although I do wonder how this error crept through.
Martin
View attachment 207929

Plenty of editors and proofreaders out there (I am one of the former and employ the latter, very different, though related, skills), but people willing to pay for their services? Fewer than we all might wish.

Adam
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Now most of the basic work is completed in collecting the data from at least the recent postings I can start to address the kind comments which have accrued since my last picture postings.

Brian McKenzie has kindly been in touch and commented that the (for example) German photos may get lost within the more general UK photos. He suggested that the "Threadmarks" facility could be useful so, just as a try out, all the posts which include Tim's photos from Germany are now identified as "Includes German Railways 1974". If this is helpful I'll extend it in to all those posts containing non - UK railways subjects.

Thanks too, Graham Dog Star, for policing these photos and for advising when you pick up images which might have originated here. On the whole keeping them within WT has been successful and there appear to have been very few "leaks".

Arun, Yorkshire Dave (with additional thanks for identifying the location of the Emden photo), Roger, Brian and Barry (diversions to other countries are encouraged), Mickoo, Simon and Michael. Thank you for a full and possibly complete review of the Kabintenders. All retained in a separate document which will contain comments about all the German photos so eventually will be available in one place together with the associated non-German railway references by brief title. These particular posts may generate a pdf against the photo which kicked it off as the detail is quite significant.

Andy, David and Simon. Thanks for yours re Old Oak. That is, of course, generic information which would suit so many of Tim's pictures that it was a problem for me to decide how it should be kept. Eventually I've decided to have an "Old Oak Common" pdf post which will appear shortly containing the information references and comments.

Arun and Roger. Re HS2 - I definitely agree regarding the GC main line. If the land had been retained in a land bank when the line closed life would have been so much easier! As far as the nimbys are concerned, Arun, I can speak as one peripherally affected by HS2 although a good few miles away. As a project it was never properly costed and I guess now never will be. Would it have gone ahead if the costs had been recognised earlier? Who knows? From what I can see locally the major concern which has generated so much anti feeling is the vast amount of land taken for the project. I'm sure it'll be returned to some sort of landscaped character once complete but in large part the land has been damaged irreparably, frequently by the felling of 100+ year old trees and in some cases entire copses which will give the developers a great opportunity to get in. IMHO it's just a shame that the project has been so badly managed and is now emasculated by truncating the project at Birmingham. Anyway, that's enough of that and I'll be saying nothing further in the way of comment on future posts, should there be any. Nor will I be keeping a pdf!

Moving on to Mickoo's comments on that pdf. Firstly many thanks, Mick, for taking so much trouble. Even with the relatively small numbers of images I've dealt with so far the amount of effort involved is significant. Nevertheless it is my humble belief that the images and the effort put in to responding by WT members deserve protecting so I'll continue. Following your suggestion I will add the originating photo to the head of the document which seems a patently good idea.

In the vast majority of cases the collected data is limited to my own comments or maybe one or two supplementaries which fit neatly within the Properties/Details associated with each of the photos so I won't be creating an associated pdf for every picture. While that doesn't make such comments immediately available to viewers on WT all those comments appear within adjacent posts so are not lost as far as public consumption is concerned.

I'll also refresh the titles for the pdfs as I can see that referencing them only by img number may work for me but does not help when viewed in isolation. In order that they appear alongside the relevant photo master in my files the description will be imgXXX Post # Brief Description.

Bearing the above in mind I'll refresh the pdfs I've created so far and they will appear as final versions within the Tim Mills Photos thread. One of the early improvements will be to ensure that all images have a "Copyright" stamp printed over them which was lacking on the example pdf I've shown. Maps etc where the copyright or origination is stated in the text will not be so adorned.

Adrian - WT is such a fund of information I'm much comforted by your stated intention that it will continue in to the far future. I know how much your work to keep the site up to date and secure is appreciated and there is wide recognition of the time it takes to do this.

Thank you Simon for the final info re 2888 which I suspect completes that particular journey.

Martin and Adam - it's interesting that a published work can get something so wrong, particularly when it may be regarded as a reference. I've done a bit of proof reading, particularly for instructions, and it's surprisingly difficult and a skill I'm still having to learn. In fact every document I've reviewed so far will need some element of correction once we've had comments from users but my understanding is that it's not terribly unusual for that to be the case, particularly with what may be loosely described as technical documentation..

It's about time we had some more photos so those, UK and German, will follow.

Brian
 
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Includes German Railways 1974

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
WD 2-8-0 90000 down light engine at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961.

It was built as WD 7009 in 1943 and renumbered as WD 77009 in January 1945. (BR Database). In January 1946 it went tp Netherlands Railways on loan (SLS) and is next recorded as being on the LNER numbered 3000 in March 1947. The newly formed BR took it over in 1948 and numbered it 63000, renumbering it again as 90000 in October 1950. (BR Database). It was at Annesley by the end of March 1947, then Colwick in October, New England in February 1959 and finally Frodingham in October 1962 where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cox & Danks, Wadsley Bridge in November the same year. (BR Database).


img2589 TM Neg Strip 34 90000 down light engine 22 Jul 61 copyright Final.jpg

A4 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley on the up Norseman from Tyne Quay at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. We've seen this loco on these posts more times than you could shake a stick at, however it had been a Kings Cross engine since June 1950, moving to New England in June 1963 thence to St Margarets in November and then Aberdeen Ferryhill in August 1964 where it was withdrawn at the beginning of February 1966. (SLS). For information about it's life in preservation see 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley (LNER 4498, LNER 600, LNER 7 & BR 60007)

img2590 TM Neg Strip 34 60007 up Norseman from Tyne Quay Harringay West 22 Jul 61 copyright Fi...jpg

A1 60148 Aboyeur on the 5.55 to Leeds at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This has been in post #2024 among others previously. It had been at Leeds, Copley Hill since September 1955 and then moved around a bit, ending up at Gateshead from where it was withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). By August it had been scrapped at Arnott Young, Dinsdale. (BR Database).

img2591 TM Neg Strip 34 60148 5.55 to Leeds Harringay West 22 Jul 61 copyright Final.jpg

Moving on to Germany Rheine - Emden and coal fired 2-10-0 051 818-7 with Kabintender in March 1974. The absence of any overhead suggests this may be Emden. Now confirmed as Emden.

img4058 TM 051 818-7 Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

img4060 TM 051 818-7 Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

Germany Rheine - Emden in March 1974 and a coal fired 2-10-0 with a barely readable number which I believe to be 044 375-1. I suggest this may be at Emden too, although I'm not certain whether there was a loco depot there. Now confirmed as Emden.

img4059 TM Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

Brian
 
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Arun Sharma

Western Thunderer
Re:90000: The WDs were not a homogeneous class and that is illustrated in your pic of the BR-designated class leader. As an Eastern Region Engine it has the kinked vac exhaust pipe and handrail associated with that region. Had it spent much of its life on the WR it would probably have acquired a top feed and a fire iron tunnel along the footplate as well. I believe engines on the ER and WR had different firebox wash out plug positions which is why the handrails around the fireboxes were altered on the ER engines.
Most WDs had brackets on the RHS of the tender top for fire irons though a very, very few had them on the LHS instead. One or two even ended up in June 1964 with a yellow prohibition cab stripe although whether that was related to the presence or otherwise of a WR type-topfeed [as in the case of the ex-MoD 8F 48773] is unknown [to me anyway].
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
If I may a bit further to Arun's comments re WDs. The fundamental differences are the redesigned firebox with resultant visible alterations on the exterior of the boiler, and the addition of fire iron tunnels and a cover over the clack valves on the WR allocated ones. This latter can only have been an aesthetic consideration, the vast majority of the class (650 odd locomotives) seemed to function well enough as designed. What I can't ascertain is whether the WR changed the clacks to their own pattern, the originals were noticeably higher than the chimneys, the WR covers don't appear to be.

Almost at the beginning of the class the LNER thought the design of the firebox was too rigid, something Sir William Stanier with his MoS hat on agreed with, but the exigencies of war prevented any change. Post war this manifested itself in the firebox tubeplate either serrating or cracking at the too tighly rolled flanges which inevitably required a new tubeplate. In 1951 following numerous issues principally in the NE Region, a new firebox was designed for fitting to existing boiler barrels, this had many alterations from the original, the visible one being the replacement of the 5 evenly spaced washout plugs with 5 unequally spaced inspection hand holes in the manner of the Thompson 100A boiler. This was carried out on approx 1/3rd of the original boilers, principally at Darlington with a handful at Gorton and Crewe. As can be imagined it was a major piece of work so I can only presume the ER though it worth doing, the appearance of the 9Fs obviously not far enough forward. Crewe Works between 1951 and 1954 built 53 new boilers incorporating all the post war redesigns so eventually about 260 of the 732 locomotives had the modifications.

By all accounts there was something of a problem with the steaming of the 2-8-0s under adverse conditions whereas the 2-10-0s with the bigger grate area seemd to perform noticeably better. I have spoken to a couple of men who fired them on the General Terminus to Ravenscraig ore trains and apart from being a bit spartan did the work at least as well as anything else available.

Martin
 

LarryG

Western Thunderer
The Austerity 2-8-0s were easy to work, easy to brake, easy to fire and easy to dispose. They were our mainline engine at Lees 26F. Working another sheds Black Five one weekend brought home to me just how much I had taken for granted the uncomfortable conditions on the 'kicking' 2-8-0s. Nevertheless, they were regarded as good 'uns and so I could only assume they were a welcomed at Lees when replacing the shed's Fowler 0-8-0s.
 
Includes German Railways 1974

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Arun, Martin and Larry. Thanks for expanding my knowledge of the WD 2-8-0s - a class I've always liked. Info now incorporated in the attached data.

Dave and Mick - thanks for yours too. That shed view from above has shades of Old Oak in diesel days.

I looked at the very beginning of this thread today. It's going to be a lot of work to collect everything we have from day one but I'm convinced it'll be worthwhile.

A4 60032 Gannet on an up Newcastle train at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This had been a Kings Cross engine since June 1950 and went to New England in June 1963 from where it was withdrawn in October the same year. (SLS). It then went to Doncaster where it was scrapped in December. (BR Database).

img2592 TM Neg Strip 34 60032 up Newcastle Harringay West 22 Jul 61 copyright Final.jpg
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A3 60076 Gallopin on a down fitted freight at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This was seen in Kings Cross very recently on the same day in post #2937. It became a Gateshead engine in July 1961 and the final shed was Heaton in early October 1962 where it was withdrawn at the end of the month. (SLS). It was scrapped in Doncaster Works in April 1963. (Rail UK).

img2593 TM Neg Strip 34 60076 down fitted freight Harringay West area 22 Jul 61 copyright Final.jpg

A3 60112 St Simon on a down Hull train at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This is carrying fins around the chimney as one of the early efforts to limit drifting smoke and it received the German style deflectors on a general overhaul visit to Doncaster in October 1962. In July 1961 it was at Grantham and had been since July 1959. In October 1963 it was allocated to Doncaster and went to New England in November 1963 being withdrawn from there just after Christmas in 1964. (SLS). It was sold to Kings of Norwich for scrap in February 1965. (BR Database).


img2594 TM Neg Strip 34 60112 down Hull Harringay West area 22 Jul 61 Note smoke deflectors co...jpg

This is a repeat of the photo we saw in post #2971 in the Germany Rheine Emden collection of March 1974. It's oil burning 012 061-8 and as Yorkshire Dave described, at Emden Hbf - At the time of these photos the electrification terminated at Rheine. The Rheine-Emden section was electrified later. On the left Alfred Wegner Eisenhandel.

I suspect this may be the train from which the following pictures were taken around Emden.

img4063 TM 012 061-8 Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

Views from the train Rheine - Emden or at Emden Station in March 1974.

img4061 TM Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

img4062 TM Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

img4064 TM Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

img4065 TM Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

img4066 TM Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

Brian
 
Includes German Railways 1974

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
I have insufficient knowledge of the area to comment otherwise than Tim's notes so this is what thry say: Black 5 44984 on a return excursion via the cross London line to Gospel Oak in the Harringay West area on 22nd July 1961. This loco had been at Kentish Town since January 1960, then it went to Bedford, Cricklewood, Leicester, Annesley and finally Colwick in January 1966 where it was withdrawn the following November. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge in March 1967. (BR Database).

img2595 TM Neg Strip 34 44984 return excursion via cross London lineto Gospel Oak Harringay We...jpg

V2 60832 on an up extra at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This had been a New England engine since February 1951 and was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in June 1963 at Doncaster Works.

img2596 TM Neg Strip 34 60832 up extra Harringay West area 22 Jul 61 copyright Final.jpg
9F 92185 on a down freight at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. As a new build this was in post #634 and details are: It entered service in the middle of January 1958 at New England. In June 1963 it moved to Colwick, then back to New England in the November and finally Immingham in January 1964. Withdrawal followed in February 1965 (SLS) after the scandalously short life of a little over seven years whence the loco went to Drapers (Hull) where it was scrapped in the June. (BR Database).

img2597 TM Neg Strip 34 92185 down freight Harringay West area 22 Jul 61 copyright Final.jpg

Several here of Coal Burning 2-10-0 044 375-4 Germany Rheine - Emden at Emden shed in March 1974.

img4067 TM 044 375-4 Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

img4068 TM 044 375-4 Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

img4070 TM 044 375-4 Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

img4071 TM 044 375-4 Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

Possibly Coal Burning 2-10-0 044 375-4 again - certainly the same location and date but not positively identified.

img4069 TM Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

img4072 TM Germany Rheine - Emden March 1974 copyright Final.jpg

Brian
 
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Genghis

Western Thunderer
The bags on the rear of that class 44 tender have got me wondering. Is it duplicated brake pipes to the? If so what's that that looks like a steam heat pipe in the middle? I cannot believe that these locos would have been regulars on passenger workings?
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
I make no claims for knowledge of German locos but the two pipes the same are either duplicated single pipe air brakes or a twin pipe system, someone with more knowledge can confirm this or refute my nonsense. The pipe nearest the draw hook is almost certainly steam heat. I know we in Britain resolutely didn't fit steam heat connections to freight engines, I suspect DR were rather more sensible.
Martin
 

Barry37

Western Thunderer
It's not just me who gets it wrong, the second sentence in the caption to a photograph in "Railways around Manchester" published by The Transport Treasury rather demonstrably illustrates my comment a few days back about the lack of editors and proof reading in book production, although I do wonder how this error crept through.
Martin
View attachment 207929
I have a large GA drawing of the 9F class (including the Crosti variant), mauve rubber-stamped Brighton Works, 1952 - I suppose actually getting locos built took a while longer.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
The bags on the rear of that class 44 tender have got me wondering. Is it duplicated brake pipes to the? If so what's that that looks like a steam heat pipe in the middle? I cannot believe that these locos would have been regulars on passenger workings?

The two outer hoses are the air brake lines and being only two this would be a duplicated single pipe system as @Martin Shaw has noted.

A twin pipe system would have four air hoses (two duplicated) as seen on push-pull fitted locomotives.

And yes the centre one is a steam heat pipe - Dampfheiz kuppling - fitted to most if not all DB steam locomotives. The DB were not afraid to press any steam locomotive into passenger service if the need arose. Also banana traffic would have required steam heat.

Quite often spare Dampfheiz kupplungen were stored on racks at Bahnbetriebswerk and at stations (Bahnhof).

454 Dampfheizkupplungen.JPG
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
I have insufficient knowledge of the area to comment otherwise than Tim's notes so this is what thry say: Black 5 44984 on a return excursion via the cross London line to Gospel Oak in the Harringay West area on 22nd July 1961. This loco had been at Kentish Town since January 1960, then it went to Bedford, Cricklewood, Leicester, Annesley and finally Colwick in January 1966 where it was withdrawn the following November. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge in March 1967. (BR Database).

img2595 TM Neg Strip 34 44984 return excursion via cross London lineto Gospel Oak Harringay We...jpg

This on the ex-Midland Gospel Oak, South Tottenham and Barking line. The train is heading West and could be either going to St Pancras via Kentish Town shed curve or heading north on the MML via Carlton Road Junction (just north of Kentish Town shed); or it could be heading to the WCML via Gospel Oak and North London Line to Willsden Junction. This line now forms part of the London Overground and is electrified at 25kV.

I suspect the photo is taken just south of Harringay West station (top of annotated NLS 1/1,250 1944-72 OS map extract below). The bridge (bottom of map extract) carries the ECML and Wightman Road.

Harringay West.jpg
 

David Waite

Western Thunderer
The first photo of today shows a Black 5 passing what looks like concrete fence posts on the left with curved brackets
on them what did they support? Pipe or cable perhaps.
David.
 

Arun Sharma

Western Thunderer
The first photo of today shows a Black 5 passing what looks like concrete fence posts on the left with curved brackets
on them what did they support? Pipe or cable perhaps.
David.
I hadn't noticed them till you pointed them out - They look very much like the posts carrying LT high voltage cables. Would that piece of railway once have been part of the planned 1935 LT Northern Heights extensions?

1707051598617.pngIf the Black 5 is on this old line now marked by conventional symbols indicating a public right of way over an abandoned trackbed, then it is likely the posts would have been used by LT for its planned Finsbury Park to Highgate High Level Northern & City Line extension. This was one of the extensions to the Underground delayed by WW2 but [unline the Central Line extensions] abandoned after the war.
 
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