Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thanks Mick. I knew that one of them had BR smoke deflectors but couldn't remember which one. Tim had listed this photo as 46105 but it couldn't be that as 46105 was a Polmadie engine all its life. I looked at the scan at higher magnification and thought I could read a "6" as the final cab side number which I (wrongly) substituted for the "5". Of course, in the general scheme of things it matters not at all whether we have an identification of the loco and I'll now call it "unidentified".

Thanks for your comments as well, Larry. I bow to your better knowledge. I know from first hand experience in the Harrow area, though, that the locos in the final year or eighteen months were in abysmal condition and failures were all too common. Maybe that's not too surprising when the crews had been used to A3s, V2s and B1s which, by observation, were kept in quite reasonable nick. In short I guess there'll never be a definitive answer.

Brian

 

[AJC]

View attachment 200208

Brian

A few extra details about the train - the Horsebox is LNER in design (but might well be a BR build), the milk tanks are ex-LMS vehicles with 3000 gallon tanks (sloping axleboxes) with ladder arrangements that say very clearly that they're United Dairies/Unigate vehicles both at the end, rather than the centre of the tanks - LMS Milk tank wagons | W44546_LMR__m_. So that might suggest a point of origin?

Adam

 

[mickoo]

Thanks Mick. I knew that one of them had BR smoke deflectors but couldn't remember which one. Tim had listed this photo as 46105 but it couldn't be that as 46105 was a Polmadie engine all its life. I looked at the scan at higher magnification and thought I could read a "6" as the final cab side number which I (wrongly) substituted for the "5". Of course, in the general scheme of things it matters not at all whether we have an identification of the loco and I'll now call it "unidentified".

Thanks for your comments as well, Larry. I bow to your better knowledge. I know from first hand experience in the Harrow area, though, that the locos in the final year or eighteen months were in abysmal condition and failures were all too common. Maybe that's not too surprising when the crews had been used to A3s, V2s and B1s which, by observation, were kept in quite reasonable nick. In short I guess there'll never be a definitive answer.

Brian

Could be 105, I'm sure I've seen Polmadie engines that have worked to Euston, they usually made changes at Crewe but nothing stopping it running right through, they had the legs and capacity for it. Could also have come off at Crewe, serviced and sent south on the next service instead of north, that wasn't uncommon. Could also be 116, 126, 136, 146, 156, 166, I agree the last digit looks like a 6 on the cab side.

Either way the shed code is double digits so that puts it north of Manchester and on a long run or as above borrowed by Crewe for a fill in turn.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Adam. That's some lovely extra info about the tankers and the horsebox. Much appreciated and thank you..

Mick - I'd not thought of the possibility of 46105 having come South in the manner you suggest. In my own experience 46102, Black Watch, which was a sort of Holy Grail for us southerners came down to Euston on one occasion in the early 1960s. I know because I was at Kenton Station about five minutes after it passed through! Looking up the records for 46102 I also note that it was in Crewe Works through June and July 1961 so I suspect it was seen at Kenton on a running in turn. 46105 was also in Crewe Works but in October 1961. I know that doesn't easily chime with 1st April 1962 but we know that Polmadie Royal Scots visited Crewe Works and from my own experience travelled South on rare occasions.

On balance I'm going to reinstate Tim's description. Surprisingly he was never a radical train spotter so may not even have recognised that he's photographed a rarity. I'll update the description accompanying the photo for 46105 and attach our discussion to support that decision.

Thanks a lot, Mick.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

I really value all the input. I've modified the commentary for the photos in question and thank you all.

I have time for a few more while the tele is on!

A rather underexposed Britannia 70033 Charles Dickens on the 6.15 Euston-Bletchley at Euston on 2nd April 1962. It had been a Willesden engine since February 1961 and moved around a lot before ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor in July 1965 where it was withdrawn in July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie, in April1968.



We've seen this loco many times previously so it's sufficient to say it's Princess Coronation 46229 Duchess of Hamilton, this time having arrived on a train from Liverpool on 2nd April 1962.





Finally a very underexposed Britannia, this time 70003 John Bunyan suggested to be at Euston but I believe at Liverpool Street on 31st March 1962. It appears to be on a special in which case it's The RCTS Great Eastern Commemorative Steam Rail Tour to celebrate the passing of steam haulage on the GEML. 70003 was a March engine at the time but went to Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie, in November 1967. (BR Database).

The Britannia is arriving on the east side of Liverpool street platform 12.

Platforms 11 and 12 were usually (but not exclusively) Clacton or Harwich trains, 9-11 Norwich and 8-9 Cambridge and Kings Lynn, certainly in the 80's that was the general format at the old station. Given the short rake then I'd put odds on a Calcton train or maybe a light loaded boat train from Harwich. The white buffers, pipes, lamps, and smoke box dart plus white reporting code plate suggests a special of some sort, maybe from a Harwich sailing or summer Saturday special to the beaches at Clacton.

It would be a high probability it was the same in the 60s. The arrivals and departures to the different destinations would have remained virtually unchanged otherwise there would be conflicting train movements.

The train is the RCTS Great Eastern Commemorative Steam Rail Tour on Saturday 31st March 1962 to celebrate the passing of steam haulage on the GEML. Tim's date is right on the button. The train ran to and from Liverpool Street. What we'd give to be able to do it again! Six Bells Junction advises:

70003 London Liverpool Street - Ipswich - Trowse Upper Jn - Norwich Victoria
11168 Norwich Victoria - Trowse Upper Jn with 70003 on the rear
70003 Trowse Upper Jn - Norwich Thorpe
65567 Norwich Thorpe - Trowse - Wymondham - Dereham - County School - Foulsham
65567 Foulsham - County School - Dereham - Swaffham
65567 Swaffham - Watton - Thetford
70003 Thetford - Ely - Cambridge - Bishops Stortford - Broxbourne - Brimsdown - Angel Road - Tottenham Hale - Coppermill Jn - Clapton Jn - London Liverpool Street



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Last one defo Liverpool St. I'll have a look at the Scot info when I'm home and settled.
Martin

 

[mickoo]

I agree, the Britannia is arriving on the east side of Liverpool street platform 12.

Platforms 11 and 12 were usually (but not exclusively) Clacton or Harwich trains, 9-11 Norwich and 8-9 Cambridge and Kings Lynn, certainly in the 80's that was the general format at the old station. Given the short rake then I'd put odds on a Calcton train or maybe a light loaded boat train from Harwich. The white buffers, pipes, lamps, and smoke box dart plus white reporting code plate suggests a special of some sort, maybe from a Harwich sailing or summer Saturday special to the beaches at Clacton.

 

[mickoo]

Last one defo Liverpool St. I'll have a look at the Scot info when I'm home and settled.
Martin

One other observation on the Scot, it hasn't got a crest so that reduces the possible candidates.

 

[mickoo]

Thank you Adam. That's some lovely extra info about the tankers and the horsebox. Much appreciated and thank you..

Mick - I'd not thought of the possibility of 46105 having come South in the manner you suggest. In my own experience 46102, Black Watch, which was a sort of Holy Grail for us southerners came down to Euston on one occasion in the early 1960s. I know because I was at Kenton Station about five minutes after it passed through! Looking up the records for 46102 I also note that it was in Crewe Works through June and July 1961 so I suspect it was seen at Kenton on a running in turn. 46105 was also in Crewe Works but in October 1961. I know that doesn't easily chime with 1st April 1962 but we know that Polmadie Royal Scots visited Crewe Works and from my own experience travelled South on rare occasions.

On balance I'm going to reinstate Tim's description. Surprisingly he was never a radical train spotter so may not even have recognised that he's photographed a rarity. I'll update the description accompanying the photo for 46105 and attach our discussion to support that decision.

Thanks a lot, Mick.

Brian

46105 had a heavy general Dec 60 to Feb 61, the book of doesn't give any further works visits but that's not to say it hasn't had a fitters touch on on Crewe North for some sort of ailment. If you're going to test an engine then south to Euston is better as you have more places to lay up if it fails and much is four track, plus it's relatively flat, going north is vastly more hilly and restricted.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Platforms 11 and 12 were usually (but not exclusively) Clacton or Harwich trains, 9-11 Norwich and 8-9 Cambridge and Kings Lynn, certainly in the 80's that was the general format at the old station. Given the short rake then I'd put odds on a Calcton train or maybe a light loaded boat train from Harwich. The white buffers, pipes, lamps, and smoke box dart plus white reporting code plate suggests a special of some sort, maybe from a Harwich sailing or summer Saturday special to the beaches at Clacton.

It would be a high probability it was the same in the 60s. The arrivals and departures to the different destinations would have remained virtually unchanged otherwise there would be conflicting train movements.

 

[oldravendale]

I agree, the Britannia is arriving on the east side of Liverpool street platform 12.

Platforms 11 and 12 were usually (but not exclusively) Clacton or Harwich trains, 9-11 Norwich and 8-9 Cambridge and Kings Lynn, certainly in the 80's that was the general format at the old station. Given the short rake then I'd put odds on a Calcton train or maybe a light loaded boat train from Harwich. The white buffers, pipes, lamps, and smoke box dart plus white reporting code plate suggests a special of some sort, maybe from a Harwich sailing or summer Saturday special to the beaches at Clacton.

Thanks again Mick. That train is the RCTS Great Eastern Commemorative Steam Rail Tour on Saturday 31st March 1962 to celebrate the passing of steam haulage on the GEML. Tim's date is right on the button. The train ran to and from Liverpool Street. What we'd give to be able to do it again! Six Bells Junction advises:

70003 London Liverpool Street - Ipswich - Trowse Upper Jn - Norwich Victoria
11168 Norwich Victoria - Trowse Upper Jn with 70003 on the rear
70003 Trowse Upper Jn - Norwich Thorpe
65567 Norwich Thorpe - Trowse - Wymondham - Dereham - County School - Foulsham
65567 Foulsham - County School - Dereham - Swaffham
65567 Swaffham - Watton - Thetford
70003 Thetford - Ely - Cambridge - Bishops Stortford - Broxbourne - Brimsdown - Angel Road - Tottenham Hale - Coppermill Jn - Clapton Jn - London Liverpool Street

There's a photo of 70003 at Thetford "done up" as in Tim's photo with the reporting code which is actually a very restrained RCTS headboard.

The confirmation of location, Mick and Martin and Dave is appreciated as is yours, Martin, to see if you can dredge up anything else about 46105.

Handily that links to your comment, Mick, about the nameplate and lack of crest on that Royal Scot. It certainly lacks a crest and the nameplate looks about the right size for 46105. I'm going to stick with that as a real probability unless anything comes up which will counter the assumption and Tim's record of the shot.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Standard Class 4 2-6-4T 80140 arriving at Victoria from Tunbridge Wells on 31st March 1962. It had moved from Neasden to Tunbridge Wells West at the end of December 1959. (BR Database).It ended up at Nine Ems in October 1966 where it was withdrawn at the end of steam on the Southern in July 1967. It was scrapped in November at Birds, Risca. (BR Database).



Merchant Navy 35028 Clan Line on a down special at Clapham Junction on 31st March 1962. It was at Nine Elms at the time. moved to Weymouth in October 1964 and back to Nine Elms in April 1967 before withdrawal in July. (SLS) It was one of the fortunate MNs and went in to preservation as well recorded.

The unusual signal box spanning the tracks is Clapham A Box. It operated LSWR "low pressure pneumatic" signalling (and presumably points). Still with its wartime steel roof, which was removed after the partial collapse of one end of the gantry supports in May 1965.
The pneumatic system was replaced by Westinghouse miniature levers in 1936. Closed in 1990.



An unidentified Schools 4-4-0 on a down express at Clapham Junction on 31st March 1962.

Given the impressively short name plate I'd go for 30900 Eton, at a push 911 Dover, 920 Rugby, 928 Stowe or 937 Epson.

The list can be narrowed to 30900 Eton (wdn 2/62), 30920 Rugby (wdn 11/61), 30937 Epsom (wdn 12/62) but you could add 30930 Radley (wdn 12/62) which were fitted with the Bulleid Lemaître exhuast and large chimney. Withdrawal dates I've quoted are from D L Bradley's Locomotives of the Southern Railway Part 1.

As the photo was taken on 31st March 1962, according to the withdrawal dates above you are left with 30930 Radley (Redhill 02/62) or 30937 Epsom (Nine Elms 11/61).

From the shed allocation 30937 Epsom appears to be the likely candidate.

The loco has a Lemaitre chimney, AWS and a speedo which limits it to one of 6 engines still in traffic on the 31/3/62.
901 Wellington
915 Brighton
929 Malvern
930 Radley.
These were at either Brighton or Redhill for the Birkenhead or Reading inter regional trains and therefore unlikely.
934 St Lawrence at Basingstoke for secondary trains to thereabouts however the nameplate is too long so that leaves 937 Epsom at Nine Elms which it surely is.

The route headcode indicates the train could be either: a special boat train - Waterloo to Southampton Docks via Millbrook or an empty coaching stock train - Waterloo to Walton via Chertsey.

The unusual signal box spanning the tracks is Clapham A Box. It operated LSWR "low pressure pneumatic" signalling (and presumably points). Still with its wartime steel roof, which was removed after the partial collapse of one end of the gantry supports in May 1965.
The pneumatic system was replaced by Westinghouse miniature levers in 1936. Closed in 1990.



Another Standard 4 2-6-4T 80138 on the 11.18 Victoria to Tunbridge Wells at Clapham Junction on 31st March 1962. Previously in post #1501 80138 was a Brighton loco at the time but ended up at Bournemouth by way of Redhill. It was withdrawn from Bournemouth at the beginning of October 1966 (SLS) and went to Cashmore's at Newport where it was scrapped during February 1967. (BR Database).

The unusual signal box spanning the tracks is Clapham A Box. It operated LSWR "low pressure pneumatic" signalling (and presumably points). Still with its wartime steel roof, which was removed after the partial collapse of one end of the gantry supports in May 1965.
The pneumatic system was replaced by Westinghouse miniature levers in 1936. Closed in 1990.



This is yet another Standard 4 2-6-4T, this time 80139 on a Tunbridge Wells to Victoria train at Clapham Junction on 31st March 1962. It went to Tunbridge Wells West at the end of December 1959, then Brighton in September 1963, Redhill in December and Eastleigh in March 1965. It was withdrawn in at the end of Southern steam in July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird's Risca in November 1967. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[mickoo]

View attachment 200425

An unidentified Schools 4-4-0 on a down express at Clapham Junction on 31st March 1962.

Given the impressively short name plate I'd go for 30900 Eton, at a push 911 Dover, 920 Rugby, 928 Stowe or 937 Epson.

I've no idea about allocations or districts with the Schools class, something i should learn as I have a Gladiator one to build for myself at some point.

 

[Dave Holt]

Does the large chimney and 6 wheel tender in 1962 narrow it down from that list?
Dave.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The list can be narrowed to 30900 Eton (wdn 2/62), 30920 Rugby (wdn 11/61), 30937 Epsom (wdn 12/62) but you could add 30930 Radley (wdn 12/62) which were fitted with the Bulleid Lemaître exhuast and large chimney. Withdrawal dates I've quoted are from D L Bradley's Locomotives of the Southern Railway Part 1.

As the photo was taken on 31st March 1962, according to the withdrawal dates above you are left with 30930 Radley (Redhill 02/62) or 30937 Epsom (Nine Elms 11/61).

From the shed allocation 30937 Epsom appears to be the likely candidate.

The route headcode indicates the train could be either: a special boat train - Waterloo to Southampton Docks via Millbrook or an empty coaching stock train - Waterloo to Walton via Chertsey.

 

[michael mott]

Brian I am not in any way knowledgeable enough about your work here in presenting Tim’s photographs but the ones taken on the 6th April 1962 was my 14th birthday and by then I had stopped collecting train numbers at the Noel road bridge over the GWR main line and was roaming London in search of the last trollybus numbers which coincidentally I was able to find in the Edmonton depot and I now live in Edmonton Alberta Canada.
Michael

 

[Barry37]

Standard Class 4 2-6-4T 80140 arriving at Victoria from Tunbridge Wells on 31st March 1962. It had moved from Neasden to Tunbridge Wells West at the end of December 1959. (BR Database).It ended up at Nine Ems in October 1966 where it was withdrawn at the end of steam on the Southern in July 1967. It was scrapped in November at Birds, Risca. (BR Database).

View attachment 200423

Merchant Navy 35028 Clan Line on a down special at Clapham Junction on 31st March 1962. It was at Nine Elms at the time. moved to Weymouth in October 1964 and back to Nine Elms in April 1967 before withdrawal in July. (SLS) It was one of the fortunate MNs and went in to preservation as well recorded.

View attachment 200424

An unidentified Schools 4-4-0 on a down express at Clapham Junction on 31st March 1962.

View attachment 200425

Another Standard 4 2-6-4T 80138 on the 11.18 Victoria to Tunbridge Wells at Clapham Junction on 31st March 1962. Previously in post #1501 80138 was a Brighton loco at the time but ended up at Bournemouth by way of Redhill. It was withdrawn from Bournemouth at the beginning of October 1966 (SLS) and went to Cashmore's at Newport where it was scrapped during February 1967. (BR Database).

View attachment 200426

This is yet another Standard 4 2-6-4T, this time 80139 on a Tunbridge Wells to Victoria train at Clapham Junction on 31st March 1962. It went to Tunbridge Wells West at the end of December 1959, then Brighton in September 1963, Redhill in December and Eastleigh in March 1965. It was withdrawn in at the end of Southern steam in July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird's Risca in November 1967. (BR Database).

View attachment 200427

Brian

The unusual signal box spanning the tracks is Clapham A Box. It operated LSWR "low pressure pneumatic" signalling (and presumably points). Still with its wartime steel roof, which was removed after the partial collapse of one end of the gantry supports in May 1965.
The pneumatic system was replaced by Westinghouse miniature levers in 1936. Closed in 1990.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Mick, Dave and Dave. I'll build these comments in to the description shortly but, as time is somewhat limited today I'll get on with posting some more images. All those comments make perfect sense, though.

What a great recollection, Michael. At 14 years old I'd just started train spotting but took a great interest in the trolleybuses. The locomotives at Cricklewood took me afterwards to the LT garage from which there were trolleybuses and thence in to London for a day at the termini. The trolleybus routes took me out of my way but they were a wonderful way to travel. Please keep these reminiscences coming.

Barry - I remember the collapse of the box and the disruption of the time. The strange thing from todays perspective is that, at the time, there was much hand wringing about the delays but no possibility of a "who shot John" investigation. It was fixed and then we all got on with our lives. There was probably an investigation in the background but it received nothing like the barrack room lawyer comments we see now. Personally I think we were better for it.

Black 5 44909 on a down fitted freight at North Wembley on 31st March 1962. It had ben at Rugby since January 1948, thence to Bletchley in February 1965 Previously in post #944 44909 had been a resident of Rugby since 1948, moving to Bletchley in January 1965 and then Rose Grove in July the same year. It was withdrawn in September 1967 going to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was disposed of by February 1968.

The two vans behind Black 5 44909 on a down fitted freight at North Wembley on 31st March 1962 are what would have been brand new wagons. A pair of 'Vanwides', dia. 1/217, newly released to traffic. Yes you can see the slight sheen of clean paint, but the type were first built (at Wolverton) in 1961 and most appeared only in 1962. The only clearly BR designs visible in the train, incidentally (though the conflats further back *probably* are, who can really tell?

The second van back from the tender, appears to be an all-plywood version of the SR 12ton van, to D1/202 (Ashford 1949). It lacks diagonal bracing and has a 3-arc roof (a roof style likely inherited by the SR from the SECR).



This is Royal Scot 46166 London Rifle Brigade on the down Shamrock to Holyhead train at North Wembley on 31st March 1962. It was a much travelled engine but was at Crewe North from July 1961, thence to Carlisle Upperby in June 1962 and Kingmoor in October 1963, then withdrawal in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Arnold Young, Troon, in December 1964. BR Database).



A Class 24 diesel (the presence of twin L-shaped fuel and water tanks between the bogies suggests that this is one of the last-built class 24s, rather than the very similar first batch of class 25s, which lacked the water tanks. From memory, the first 20 class 25s (the ones without the horns alongside the headcode boxes) were NER machines, and the first batch of headcode box class 24s were all allocated to Scotland, so this is most likely to be one from the LMR batch comprising D5133 to D5150) leading Black 5 45276 on a down freight at North Wembley on 31st March 1962. The Black 5 had been at Willesden since July 1961 and moved to Stoke in September 1963. It was withdrawn in January 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohens, Kettering, in November.



Black 5 44874 on a down Rugby train at North Wembley on 31st March 1962. This had been a Carnforth engine since August 1961 and was withdrawn at the end of main line steam in August 1968. (SLS). It went to Draper's at Hull and was scrapped by the end of March 1969. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

I've done a bit more on the Schools in #2323. The loco has a Lemaitre chimney, AWS and a speedo which limits it to one of 6 engines still in traffic on the 31/3/62.
901 Wellington
915 Brighton
929 Malvern
930 Radley.
These were at either Brighton or Redhill for the Birkenhead or Reading inter regional trains and therefore unlikely.
934 St Lawrence at Basingstoke for secondary trains to thereabouts however the nameplate is too long so that does leave as Dave pointed out
937 Epsom at Nine Elms which it surely is.
It is mystery to me with 140 pacifics why the SR loco management didn't just withdraw all the Schools on the Kent Coast electrification, especially since the class was eliminated not much later in Dec 62.
Regards
Martin

 

[AJC]

Another minor freight note - two vans behind Black 5 44909 on a down fitted freight at North Wembley on 31st March 1962 are what would have been brand new wagons. A pair of 'Vanwides', dia. 1/217, newly released to traffic. Yes you can see the slight sheen of clean paint, but the type were first built (at Wolverton) in 1961 and most appeared only in 1962. The only clearly BR designs visible in the train, incidentally (though the conflats further back *probably* are, who can really tell?

Adam