Dan Randall
Western Thunderer
I’d always thought that too and thought they were rather ugly locos without them!
Regards
Dan
Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
Regards
Dan
Len Cattley
Western Thunderer
What was annoying for me was my father had is own photography shop in Staines when I was young, I helped in the dark-room he had for print's to print out and put in albums. I could have camera's and films as well, but I wasn't interested in railways then (I wish I was).
Len
Len
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
John, Dave and John again. Many thanks for your investigative work on the Footex image. Not only do we almost certainly have details of where the train was going but also the time of day and the football matches which were on together with the results. Well done indeed, and duly added.
Yorkshire Dave. Thanks for adding to the detail of locations. As ever much appreciated.
Martin. Thank you for your comments about Golden Plover. This is certainly what Tim recorded but whether the notes were contemporaneous or not I can't be certain.
Larry and Dan. I think you're just trouble makers!
Then an interesting run off piste to consider photography in the sixties. I know Tim reloaded his own cassettes as, indeed, did I. We both suffered for it as well, because it was very difficult to avoid getting dust wound up with the film and also to ensure that the cassettes were not scratching the emulsion. I was tempted to throw some of my black and white photos away because they were so badly scratched but I'm glad I didn't. Using Photoshop I've been able to restore them and their sad early history is now almost forgotten. Film processing was an art/science often practiced in home darkrooms. Len - I feel your pain. I had access to endless amounts of film in the mid sixties but spent too little time using it on important items like railways which I now regret. Thank goodness for people like Tim who didn't let life/girlfriends/work or even National Service get in the way!
Back to the photos, and this next series is a bit special. It's the railway in East London - an area which has been developed beyond recognition.
Class N7/1 rebuilt to an N7/5 in 1950 0-6-2T 69640 on a North Woolwich - Palace Gates train at Thames Quay Junction on 29th March 1962. It had been a Stratford engine since May 1961 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Stratford Works in January 1963.
(Rail UK).
The pic of 69640 is interesting as for what I believe to have been quite a lightly used line, the cess, four and six foot look immaculate.
The bridge in the background is Silvertown Way Viaduct and just beyond the bridge was the disused Tidal Basin Station. It is was replaced by Royal Victoria Station (DLR) approx 300m further east. On the left is Victoria Dock Road and The Lord Nelson pub (looks closed) and Tidal Basin road is on the right. The photo is taken from the footbridge which links the two roads.
An unidentified N7 possibly N7/5 69646 on a local to Stratford Low Level at Thames Quay Junction on 29th March 1962. It was a Stratford engine and had been since 1948 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in September 1962. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Stratford Works by the end of January 1963. (Rail UK).
Is this Thames Wharf Junction? I can't find any references to Thames Quay?
Something that is not always seen is the fog man’s hut with the two semaphore miniature bracket Signal directly in front of the door on the ground.
L1 2-6-4T 67731 on a local to Stratford Low Level at Canning Town on 29th March 1962. The loco had been at Stratford since January 1949 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). This loco went all the way to Doncaster Works where it was scrapped in November. (Rail UK).
The background to the pic of L1 67731 looks to have been a railway scrapyard. I can almost convince myself there are some smokebox bits there!
69621, an N7/1 rebuilt to an N7/4 in 1946 on a Palace Gates - North Woolwich train at Canning Town on 29th March 1962. 69621 had been a Stratford engine since September 1959 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). This was the last loco built at Stratford Works in 1923 and is now preserved and under restoration at the East Anglian Railway Museum.
I think this is a train from Stratford to Woolwich taken from Manor Road north of Canning Town station. There is an electricity pylon in the background which are on the west side of the railway when facing south.
Brian
Yorkshire Dave. Thanks for adding to the detail of locations. As ever much appreciated.
Martin. Thank you for your comments about Golden Plover. This is certainly what Tim recorded but whether the notes were contemporaneous or not I can't be certain.
Larry and Dan. I think you're just trouble makers!
Then an interesting run off piste to consider photography in the sixties. I know Tim reloaded his own cassettes as, indeed, did I. We both suffered for it as well, because it was very difficult to avoid getting dust wound up with the film and also to ensure that the cassettes were not scratching the emulsion. I was tempted to throw some of my black and white photos away because they were so badly scratched but I'm glad I didn't. Using Photoshop I've been able to restore them and their sad early history is now almost forgotten. Film processing was an art/science often practiced in home darkrooms. Len - I feel your pain. I had access to endless amounts of film in the mid sixties but spent too little time using it on important items like railways which I now regret. Thank goodness for people like Tim who didn't let life/girlfriends/work or even National Service get in the way!
Back to the photos, and this next series is a bit special. It's the railway in East London - an area which has been developed beyond recognition.
Class N7/1 rebuilt to an N7/5 in 1950 0-6-2T 69640 on a North Woolwich - Palace Gates train at Thames Quay Junction on 29th March 1962. It had been a Stratford engine since May 1961 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Stratford Works in January 1963.
(Rail UK).
The pic of 69640 is interesting as for what I believe to have been quite a lightly used line, the cess, four and six foot look immaculate.
The bridge in the background is Silvertown Way Viaduct and just beyond the bridge was the disused Tidal Basin Station. It is was replaced by Royal Victoria Station (DLR) approx 300m further east. On the left is Victoria Dock Road and The Lord Nelson pub (looks closed) and Tidal Basin road is on the right. The photo is taken from the footbridge which links the two roads.
An unidentified N7 possibly N7/5 69646 on a local to Stratford Low Level at Thames Quay Junction on 29th March 1962. It was a Stratford engine and had been since 1948 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in September 1962. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Stratford Works by the end of January 1963. (Rail UK).
Is this Thames Wharf Junction? I can't find any references to Thames Quay?
Something that is not always seen is the fog man’s hut with the two semaphore miniature bracket Signal directly in front of the door on the ground.
L1 2-6-4T 67731 on a local to Stratford Low Level at Canning Town on 29th March 1962. The loco had been at Stratford since January 1949 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). This loco went all the way to Doncaster Works where it was scrapped in November. (Rail UK).
The background to the pic of L1 67731 looks to have been a railway scrapyard. I can almost convince myself there are some smokebox bits there!
69621, an N7/1 rebuilt to an N7/4 in 1946 on a Palace Gates - North Woolwich train at Canning Town on 29th March 1962. 69621 had been a Stratford engine since September 1959 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). This was the last loco built at Stratford Works in 1923 and is now preserved and under restoration at the East Anglian Railway Museum.
I think this is a train from Stratford to Woolwich taken from Manor Road north of Canning Town station. There is an electricity pylon in the background which are on the west side of the railway when facing south.
Brian
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Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
The pic of 69640 is interesting as for what I believe to have been quite a lightly used line, the cess, four and six foot look immaculate.
The background to the pic of L1 67731 looks to have been a railway scrapyard. I can almost convince myself there are some smokebox bits there!
The background to the pic of L1 67731 looks to have been a railway scrapyard. I can almost convince myself there are some smokebox bits there!
mickoo
Western Thunderer
It has a silver trim corridor tender with 4' 6" handrails and by that date you have a choice of only three engines.
60012 Commonwealth of Australia, nameplate too long
60013 Dominion of New Zealand, nameplate too long
60021 Wild Swan
60031 Golden Plover
60021 was a southern ECML engine for it's whole life (bar her last four months at Newcastle) and a KX engine at this time. Having said that I have photos of 60031 at Belle isle on the Elizabethan in Jun 61 so it did work south when based at Haymarket, I'm not so sure it would have done so from St Rollox in 62.
It's a less that perfect image but my gut feeling is the nameplate is too short for Golden Plover and I'm convincing myself the last two digits on the cab side look more like 21 than 31
It probably won't show, but 21 had a distinctive notch in the chimney base fairing at the front around the whistle, 31 didn't. It got repaired, or new casing fitted sometime before 63 but was notched in late 61/early 62. It had three visits to Doncaster in 1962 alone (all after your date) where I suspect it was repaired/changed. There does appear some sort of tonal change in that location in your photo but it's circumspect at best.
Copyright unknown.
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Arun. Yes to a scrap yard but smoke box bits? Unlikely I suspect.
I wonder if you are right about Thames Wharf Junction. Having looked at maps I can't find a Thames Quay Junction. Hmm. I'll await more advice but appreciate your thoughts in kicking the discussion off.
Mick - 60021 vs 60031. If you look at the earlier photo of 60021 on the footy special you'll note that it has a very prominent overhead electrification plate on the smokebox end but it's not present on the putative 60031. I remain in limbo about this one.
Brian
I wonder if you are right about Thames Wharf Junction. Having looked at maps I can't find a Thames Quay Junction. Hmm. I'll await more advice but appreciate your thoughts in kicking the discussion off.
Mick - 60021 vs 60031. If you look at the earlier photo of 60021 on the footy special you'll note that it has a very prominent overhead electrification plate on the smokebox end but it's not present on the putative 60031. I remain in limbo about this one.
Brian
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Brian, you're right, I hadn't clocked 21 leaving earlier from the adjacent platform. The only niggle with the unknown being 21 which I didn't note above (well I did but edited it out) was the profusion of leaks at the front end, not very top shed at all, even in the last days the engines appeared to be kept reasonably clean and steam tight.
You can see the notched chimney fairing quite clearly on your image of 21. If it's not 21, which clearly it isn't then it has to be 31.
There are no other engines with short names and silver trimmed tenders (there are only four in total anyway) with 4' 6" hand rails, we only have two choices 21 or 31. Elementary my dear Watson.
You can see the notched chimney fairing quite clearly on your image of 21. If it's not 21, which clearly it isn't then it has to be 31.
There are no other engines with short names and silver trimmed tenders (there are only four in total anyway) with 4' 6" hand rails, we only have two choices 21 or 31. Elementary my dear Watson.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Class N7/1 rebuilt to an N7/5 in 1950 0-6-2T 69640 on a North Woolwich - Palace Gates train at Thames Quay Junction on 29th March 1962. It had been a Stratford engine since May 1961 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Stratford Works in January 1963. (Rail UK).
The bridge in the background is Silvertown Way Viaduct and just beyond the bridge was the disused Tidal Basin Station. It is was replaced by Royal Victoria Station (DLR) approx 300m further east. On the left is Victoria Dock Road and The Lord Nelson pub (looks closed) and Tidal Basin road is on the right. The photo is taken from the footbridge which links the two roads.
Annotated OS extract from NSL
An unidentified N7 possibly N7/5 69646 on a local to Stratford Low Level at Thames Quay Junction on 29th March 1962. It was a Stratford engine and had been since 1948 (BR Database) and was withdrawn in September 1962. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Stratford Works by the end of January 1963. (Rail UK).
I think this is a train from Stratford to Woolwich taken from Manor Road north of Canning Town station. There is an electricity pylon in the background which are on the west side of the railway when facing south.
Annotated 1:25,000 OS extract from NLS (as this series shows the pylons).
The problem today is you can't even use Street View to verify any buildings as the whole area has been redeveloped out of recognition - even some of the road alignments have disappeared.
David Waite
Western Thunderer
The first photo posted today is something that is not always seen is the fog man’s hut with the two semaphore
miniature bracket Signal directly in front of the door on the ground, magic photo great to see.
David.
miniature bracket Signal directly in front of the door on the ground, magic photo great to see.
David.
Michael Hall
Western Thunderer
I would be interested to know where this photograph was taken.It has a silver trim corridor tender with 4' 6" handrails and by that date you have a choice of only three engines.
60012 Commonwealth of Australia, nameplate too long
60013 Dominion of New Zealand, nameplate too long
60021 Wild Swan
60031 Golden Plover
60021 was a southern ECML engine for it's whole life (bar her last four months at Newcastle) and a KX engine at this time. Having said that I have photos of 60031 at Belle isle on the Elizabethan in Jun 61 so it did work south when based at Haymarket, I'm not so sure it would have done so from St Rollox in 62.
It's a less that perfect image but my gut feeling is the nameplate is too short for Golden Plover and I'm convincing myself the last two digits on the cab side look more like 21 than 31
It probably won't show, but 21 had a distinctive notch in the chimney base fairing at the front around the whistle, 31 didn't. It got repaired, or new casing fitted sometime before 63 but was notched in late 61/early 62. It had three visits to Doncaster in 1962 alone (all after your date) where I suspect it was repaired/changed. There does appear some sort of tonal change in that location in your photo but it's circumspect at best.
Copyright unknown.
View attachment 201233
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Peterborough heading south.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Mick - thank you for the additional clarification regarding that A4. Your analysis speaks for itself.
Yorkshire Dave. I really appreciate your work on the locations of these photos. There is no doubt that few people would recognise the geography from the map as it stands now.
David - I'd not noticed the fogman's hut. That would be a really interesting thing to model, wouldn't it?
Finally, Michael, I expect Mick will be along soon to answer your question.
I'm pleased to say that there remains a fair number of the East London photos to come. These are probably among the most important series in the collection - the local lines were pretty hum-drum and rarely photographed.
B1 61375 standing light engine at Liverpool Street on 29th March 1962. This had been at Stratford since October 1951 and moved to March in October 1962. (SLS). BR Database reports the date of withdrawal as 25 November 1963 and disposal at Birds Long Marston in August 1966 after being transferred to Departmental Stock for use as a stationary boiler for train heating purposes as No 24. The drawhook was removed to preclude use as a normal engine. Rail UK advises the loco was used at Norwich for carriage heating where it was finally withdrawn in April 1966.
Britannia 70003 John Bunyan on the Farewell to GE Steam Special at Stratford on 31st March 1962. We saw this as a very underexposed shot entering Liverpool Street in post #2645 and I'll repeat the information here.
70003 was a March engine at the time but went to Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie, in November 1967. (BR Database).
The train is the RCTS Great Eastern Commemorative Steam Rail Tour on Saturday 31st March 1962 to celebrate the passing of steam haulage on the GEML. Tim's date is right on the button. The train ran to and from Liverpool Street. What we'd give to be able to do it again! Six Bells Junction advises:
70003 London Liverpool Street - Ipswich - Trowse Upper Jn - Norwich Victoria
11168 Norwich Victoria - Trowse Upper Jn with 70003 on the rear
70003 Trowse Upper Jn - Norwich Thorpe
65567 Norwich Thorpe - Trowse - Wymondham - Dereham - County School - Foulsham
65567 Foulsham - County School - Dereham - Swaffham
65567 Swaffham - Watton - Thetford
70003 Thetford - Ely - Cambridge - Bishops Stortford - Broxbourne - Brimsdown - Angel Road - Tottenham Hale - Coppermill Jn - Clapton Jn - London Liverpool Street
L1 67724 on a North Woolwich - Stratford Low Level train said to be at Thames Quay Junction but following advice actually Thames Wharf Junction on 29th March 1962. 67724 had been a Stratford engine since 1953 and was withdrawn from there in September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works at the end of November. (Rail UK).
Following Yorkshire Dave's advice we now know that the bridge in the background is Silvertown Way Viaduct and just beyond the bridge was the disused Tidal Basin Station. It is was replaced by Royal Victoria Station (DLR) approx 300m further east. On the left is Victoria Dock Road and The Lord Nelson pub (looks closed) and Tidal Basin road is on the right. The photo is taken from the footbridge which links the two roads. As the first picture was a North Woolwich to Palace Gates train and travelling in the opposite direction I suspect this is actually a Stratford Low Level to North Woolwich train.
A truncated view of the fogman's hut in the foregound.
Another L1, this time 67716 on a Stratford Low Level - North Woolwich at Thames Wharf Junction rather than the Thames Quay Junction as suggested in Tim's original description. The date is 29th March 1962. 67716 had been at Stratford since 1959 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). This one went all the way to Darlington Works, North Road, where it was scrapped by the end of December. (Rail UK).
Brian
Yorkshire Dave. I really appreciate your work on the locations of these photos. There is no doubt that few people would recognise the geography from the map as it stands now.
David - I'd not noticed the fogman's hut. That would be a really interesting thing to model, wouldn't it?
Finally, Michael, I expect Mick will be along soon to answer your question.
I'm pleased to say that there remains a fair number of the East London photos to come. These are probably among the most important series in the collection - the local lines were pretty hum-drum and rarely photographed.
B1 61375 standing light engine at Liverpool Street on 29th March 1962. This had been at Stratford since October 1951 and moved to March in October 1962. (SLS). BR Database reports the date of withdrawal as 25 November 1963 and disposal at Birds Long Marston in August 1966 after being transferred to Departmental Stock for use as a stationary boiler for train heating purposes as No 24. The drawhook was removed to preclude use as a normal engine. Rail UK advises the loco was used at Norwich for carriage heating where it was finally withdrawn in April 1966.
Britannia 70003 John Bunyan on the Farewell to GE Steam Special at Stratford on 31st March 1962. We saw this as a very underexposed shot entering Liverpool Street in post #2645 and I'll repeat the information here.
70003 was a March engine at the time but went to Carlisle Kingmoor in December 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie, in November 1967. (BR Database).
The train is the RCTS Great Eastern Commemorative Steam Rail Tour on Saturday 31st March 1962 to celebrate the passing of steam haulage on the GEML. Tim's date is right on the button. The train ran to and from Liverpool Street. What we'd give to be able to do it again! Six Bells Junction advises:
70003 London Liverpool Street - Ipswich - Trowse Upper Jn - Norwich Victoria
11168 Norwich Victoria - Trowse Upper Jn with 70003 on the rear
70003 Trowse Upper Jn - Norwich Thorpe
65567 Norwich Thorpe - Trowse - Wymondham - Dereham - County School - Foulsham
65567 Foulsham - County School - Dereham - Swaffham
65567 Swaffham - Watton - Thetford
70003 Thetford - Ely - Cambridge - Bishops Stortford - Broxbourne - Brimsdown - Angel Road - Tottenham Hale - Coppermill Jn - Clapton Jn - London Liverpool Street
L1 67724 on a North Woolwich - Stratford Low Level train said to be at Thames Quay Junction but following advice actually Thames Wharf Junction on 29th March 1962. 67724 had been a Stratford engine since 1953 and was withdrawn from there in September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works at the end of November. (Rail UK).
Following Yorkshire Dave's advice we now know that the bridge in the background is Silvertown Way Viaduct and just beyond the bridge was the disused Tidal Basin Station. It is was replaced by Royal Victoria Station (DLR) approx 300m further east. On the left is Victoria Dock Road and The Lord Nelson pub (looks closed) and Tidal Basin road is on the right. The photo is taken from the footbridge which links the two roads. As the first picture was a North Woolwich to Palace Gates train and travelling in the opposite direction I suspect this is actually a Stratford Low Level to North Woolwich train.
A truncated view of the fogman's hut in the foregound.
Another L1, this time 67716 on a Stratford Low Level - North Woolwich at Thames Wharf Junction rather than the Thames Quay Junction as suggested in Tim's original description. The date is 29th March 1962. 67716 had been at Stratford since 1959 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). This one went all the way to Darlington Works, North Road, where it was scrapped by the end of December. (Rail UK).
Brian
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Continuing the theme and I suspect these will complete the East London theme.
Three shots here of the same loco at three different locations.
L1 2-6-4T 67729 on a North Woolwich - Stratford Low Level train at Thames Quay Junction which we now know is Thames Wharf Junction on 29th March 1962. 67729 had been one of the Stratford contingent since 1953 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works by the end of November. (Rail UK).
The same loco on a Palace Gates - North Woolwich train at Stratford Low Level on 29th March 1962.
...and here on a North Woolwich - Palace Gates train but now at North Woolwich on 29th March 1962.
Black 5 44688 on a cross London freight from Willesden to Custom House at Thames Wharf Junction on 29th March 1962.
We saw this loco in the previous post. It's 67724 and here a view from the cab at North Woolwich on 29th March 1962. 67724 had been a Stratford engine since 1953 and was withdrawn from there in September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works at the end of November. (Rail UK).
The view from the cab of 67724 again but this time of an approaching N7 0-6-2T arriving from Stratford on 29th March 1962. Nice shot of a LT RM on the adjacent road too.
The picture from the cab of 67724 which includes the RM travelling towards the observer is taken on the railway line parallelling Albert Road. This was a classic place to photgraph trolleybuses on the 669 route as the overhead consisted of 'bowstring arms'. The LNER [in 1935 ish] and subsequently BR refused to allow the trolleybus overhead to be on the railway side of the road so the long bowstring supports which carried a double set of wires were used.
The 669 route disappeared with Stage 5 of the trolleybus replacement programon on Tuesday 2nd Feb 1960. The first production Routemasters started to replace trolleybuses on 10 November 1959 [Stage 4 of the replacement programme]. Thus the RMs on Albert Road were early production vehicles [but not the earliest]. Interestingly, the RM in the picture is an early production bus numbered between RM8 and RM253 as earlier buses were prototypes and only used on non-passenger trials and buses after RM253 had opening front upper deck windows.
L1 67724 on a North Woolwich - Palace Gates train at North Woolwich on 29th March 1962. Note the pit on the centre track. Was this an engine release road and the pit to allow cleaning of the fire? The rear of the adjacent coach is endorsed GE BCH SET - was this a quad art? It looks a bit modern for that, more likely to be Mk 1 suburbans.
All definitely Thompson, but vacuum braked looking at that carriage end. I tried searching Robert Carroll's carriage working diagrams and only found the 1953 book, where the Palace Gates - North Woolwich diagrams were worked by half sub sets, BT, T, T or half a quad art. Not particularly useful in this context.
The coach end and the adjacent one behind the L1, which I surmise to be the same, are I think dia373 6 compt 72 seat brake thirds produced by BR in 1953 on Ilford stock underframes made redundndant by the Shenfield electrification. Originally produced for the LT&S by 1962 they were surplus there as well. The LNER (Gresley) produced a few 6 compt brakes in 1924 which these obviously aren't and then these so I'm reasonably comfortable with the identification.
67724 on a North Woolwich - Palace Gates train at North Woolwich on 29th March 1962.
67724 departing North Woolwich for Stratford at North Woolwich on 29th March 1962. Look at that lovely signal gantry. Sadly I'm doubtful about the attributed station. I suspect this is Canning Town.
It is Canning Town as the old West Ham B power station is on the left.
Back at Stratford this is an unidentified J69 on a trip freight on 29th March 1962. Well, I called it a J69 but I think it may be a J67, either 68565 withdrawn in August 1962 or 68566, withdrawn in September 1962, both of which were at Stratford at the time of the photo. 68565 was scrapped at Stratford in September 1962 and 68566 in January 1963.
15 spoke unbalanced wheels - ex-passenger loco (R24). It has widened tanks, and the safety valves are not in front of the cab; these aspects denoting a 180 lb PSI boiler. Thus, it’s an R24 Rebuilt (LNER J69/1).
RCTS 8A has 68565 withdrawn 8/62, 68566 a month later. Yeadons v48 agrees.
Brian
Three shots here of the same loco at three different locations.
L1 2-6-4T 67729 on a North Woolwich - Stratford Low Level train at Thames Quay Junction which we now know is Thames Wharf Junction on 29th March 1962. 67729 had been one of the Stratford contingent since 1953 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works by the end of November. (Rail UK).
The same loco on a Palace Gates - North Woolwich train at Stratford Low Level on 29th March 1962.
...and here on a North Woolwich - Palace Gates train but now at North Woolwich on 29th March 1962.
Black 5 44688 on a cross London freight from Willesden to Custom House at Thames Wharf Junction on 29th March 1962.
We saw this loco in the previous post. It's 67724 and here a view from the cab at North Woolwich on 29th March 1962. 67724 had been a Stratford engine since 1953 and was withdrawn from there in September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works at the end of November. (Rail UK).
The view from the cab of 67724 again but this time of an approaching N7 0-6-2T arriving from Stratford on 29th March 1962. Nice shot of a LT RM on the adjacent road too.
The picture from the cab of 67724 which includes the RM travelling towards the observer is taken on the railway line parallelling Albert Road. This was a classic place to photgraph trolleybuses on the 669 route as the overhead consisted of 'bowstring arms'. The LNER [in 1935 ish] and subsequently BR refused to allow the trolleybus overhead to be on the railway side of the road so the long bowstring supports which carried a double set of wires were used.
The 669 route disappeared with Stage 5 of the trolleybus replacement programon on Tuesday 2nd Feb 1960. The first production Routemasters started to replace trolleybuses on 10 November 1959 [Stage 4 of the replacement programme]. Thus the RMs on Albert Road were early production vehicles [but not the earliest]. Interestingly, the RM in the picture is an early production bus numbered between RM8 and RM253 as earlier buses were prototypes and only used on non-passenger trials and buses after RM253 had opening front upper deck windows.
L1 67724 on a North Woolwich - Palace Gates train at North Woolwich on 29th March 1962. Note the pit on the centre track. Was this an engine release road and the pit to allow cleaning of the fire? The rear of the adjacent coach is endorsed GE BCH SET - was this a quad art? It looks a bit modern for that, more likely to be Mk 1 suburbans.
All definitely Thompson, but vacuum braked looking at that carriage end. I tried searching Robert Carroll's carriage working diagrams and only found the 1953 book, where the Palace Gates - North Woolwich diagrams were worked by half sub sets, BT, T, T or half a quad art. Not particularly useful in this context.
The coach end and the adjacent one behind the L1, which I surmise to be the same, are I think dia373 6 compt 72 seat brake thirds produced by BR in 1953 on Ilford stock underframes made redundndant by the Shenfield electrification. Originally produced for the LT&S by 1962 they were surplus there as well. The LNER (Gresley) produced a few 6 compt brakes in 1924 which these obviously aren't and then these so I'm reasonably comfortable with the identification.
67724 on a North Woolwich - Palace Gates train at North Woolwich on 29th March 1962.
67724 departing North Woolwich for Stratford at North Woolwich on 29th March 1962. Look at that lovely signal gantry. Sadly I'm doubtful about the attributed station. I suspect this is Canning Town.
It is Canning Town as the old West Ham B power station is on the left.
Back at Stratford this is an unidentified J69 on a trip freight on 29th March 1962. Well, I called it a J69 but I think it may be a J67, either 68565 withdrawn in August 1962 or 68566, withdrawn in September 1962, both of which were at Stratford at the time of the photo. 68565 was scrapped at Stratford in September 1962 and 68566 in January 1963.
15 spoke unbalanced wheels - ex-passenger loco (R24). It has widened tanks, and the safety valves are not in front of the cab; these aspects denoting a 180 lb PSI boiler. Thus, it’s an R24 Rebuilt (LNER J69/1).
RCTS 8A has 68565 withdrawn 8/62, 68566 a month later. Yeadons v48 agrees.
Brian
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Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
The picture from the cab of 67724 which includes the RM travelling towards the observer is taken on the railway line parallelling Albert Road. This was a classic place to photgraph trolleybuses on the 669 route as the overhead consisted of 'bowstring arms'. The LNER [in 1935 ish] and subsequently BR refused to allow the trolleybus overhead to be on the railway side of the road so the long bowstring supports which carried a double set of wires were used.
The scene nowadays is completely changed though the sense of the road being alongside hasn't gone completely.
The pic comes from 'Trolleybuses in London's Docklands' compiled by Hugh Taylor and published in 2015 by Adam Gordon.
The scene nowadays is completely changed though the sense of the road being alongside hasn't gone completely.
The pic comes from 'Trolleybuses in London's Docklands' compiled by Hugh Taylor and published in 2015 by Adam Gordon.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
67724 departing North Woolwich for Stratford at North Woolwich on 29th March 1962. Look at that lovely signal gantry. Sadly I'm doubtful about the attributed station. I suspect this is Canning Town.
It is Canning Town as the old West Ham B power station is on the left.
L1 67724 on a North Woolwich - Palace Gates train at North Woolwich on 29th March 1962. Note the pit on the centre track. Was this an engine release road and the pit to allow cleaning of the fire? The rear of the adjacent coach is endorsed GE BCH SET - was this a quad art? It looks a bit modern for that, more likely to be Mk 1 suburbans.
They appear to be Thompson suburban coaches.
The fact they are marked as GE BCH (Branch?) SET may imply they may have air rather than vacuum brakes. Perhaps someone can elucidate as the GE was a 'Westinghouse' line.
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
I am inclined to agree that they can't be Mk 1 coaches because the BR Mk1 bodyside profile is a continuous 28ft radius curved bodyside from cantrail to solebar. The coach with the GE BCH lettering has a distict waistline with an inward sloping straight bodyside above that.
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
It's also vacuum braked. Whilst the Jazz services retained the air brake for wholly practical reasons, the rest of the GE fell in with the general LNER policy of vacuum brakes.
Martin
Martin
76043
Western Thunderer
All definitely Thompson, but vacuum braked as previously noted looking at that carriage end. I tried searching Robert Carroll's carriage working diagrams and only found the 1953 book, where the Palace Gates - North Woolwich diagrams were worked by half sub sets, BT, T, T or half a quad art. Not particularly useful in this context.
The RM's must have been fairly new on the Trolleybus replacement program?
Tony
The RM's must have been fairly new on the Trolleybus replacement program?
Tony
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
The 669 route disappeared with Stage 5 of the trolleybus replacement programon on Tuesday 2nd Feb 1960. The first production Routemasters started to replace trolleybuses on 10 November 1959 [Stage 4 of the replacement programme]. Thus the RMs on Albert Road were early production vehicles [but not the earliest]. Interestingly, the RM in the picture is an early production bus numbered between RM8 and RM253 as earlier buses were prototypes and only used on non-passenger trials and buses after RM253 had opening front upper deck windows.
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