Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Yorkshire Dave]

King 6008 King James II on a Paddington to Shrewsbury train at High Wycombe on14th April 1962. It was a Stafford Road engine from February 1959 and withdrawn in June 1962. (SLS). It was demolished at Swindon works during January 1963. (BR Database).

The bus in the forecourt lookes like a Thames Valley Traction Company Bristol.

Tim took this one from an Intercity Paddington to Birmingham train on 14th April 1962. We have no further details.

As Graham (@Dog Star) has noted above the LT Central Line is on the south western side and I would go further and narrow this down to between South Ruislip (in the distance) and Ruislip Gardens. Judging by the smoke trail the photo was taken from a northbound train looking towards the rear while crossing the bridge over Bridgwater Road - of which the girders can just be seen on the bottom far right..

On this 1:2,250-1:2,500 1944-72 NLS OS extract I have highlighted Ruilsip Gardens (top left) and from left to right the signal gantry, signal box and South Ruislip. You can also see how the LT lines swerve behind the signal box.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I am not aware of many photos being taken from such a vantage point... was Tim up the ladder of the water tower on the up platform... was the camera pointed through the railings on the retaining wall?

I would say this was taken from Totteridge Road over or through the railings of the retaining wall. I don't think the water tower ladder would be tall enough to obtain the same angle.

 

[oldravendale]

Graham and David. Thanks so much for drawing all this info from the pictures. Firstly though, Graham, although I read "wot I 'ave rote" about 46206 after typing it the sense of it failed to sink in. I have now rechecked my sources and the dates are, indeed, those from BR Database. However, Rail UK swaps them over and I suspect these dates are a transposition. According to WHTS, however, the Railway Observer reported the loco as withdrawn in October 1962 but the SLS advise the date as 3rd November. It was then dispatched in steam to Crewe on 17th November and seen in Crewe Works in December 1962. (LCGB). I guess we have to take the view that withdrawal and scrapping were within a few weeks of the dates quoted. SLS, RO and LCGB are usually reasonably reliable sources but the info as presented depends a lot (as you will have noted in these pages) about the ability of the author to translate the info from one source to another!

As for where Tim was standing for the photo of the King I'd not be at all surprised to find he was up a ladder or on a signal gantry ! but I suspect your suggestion of the shot being taken through the railings is probably correct. It is, nonetheless, I suggest a really useful modellers angle rarely photographed.

You have both refined the locations and train directions. I'll make appropriate adjustments to the info attached to the photos. Thanks too, Dave, for the comment about the bus. I must admit that I noticed it but thought the image so incomplete that it was probably not worth mentioning!

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

You have both refined the locations and train directions. I'll make appropriate adjustments to the info attached to the photos. Thanks too, Dave, for the comment about the bus. I must admit that I noticed it but thought the image so incomplete that it was probably not worth mentioning!

The bus is in one of the two classic cliched railway modellers poses . In this case it's in the station forecourt rather than on a bridge.

With regards to the bus I initially though it might be a RT knowing LT had a garage and operated some services in and around High Wycombe. However, I quickly ruled this out as the green country area RT mudguards were not painted black unlike their red central area cousins.

A quick check of Thames Valley Traction buses revealed they were painted red with black mudguards.

 

[Dog Star]

With regards to the bus I initially though it might be a RT knowing LT had a garage and operated some services in and around High Wycombe. However, I quickly ruled this out as the green country area RT mudguards were not painted black unlike their red central area cousins.

The LT bus garage was to the south of the town - now a DIY store. I do not recall any Green Line buses using the station forecourt during the period 1960-69 when I used routes 362 and 363 which passed the station. I am on less certain ground when considering what is visible in the picture. Through the period when I took the bus up the hill I recall seeing buses from Oxford in the station forecourt... I do not recall any of the Thames Valley fleet using the station.

... the LT Central Line is on the south western side and I would go further and narrow this down to between South Ruislip (in the distance) and Ruislip Gardens. Judging by the smoke trail the photo was taken from a northbound train looking towards the rear while crossing the bridge over Bridgwater Road - of which the girders can just be seen on the bottom far right.

After reading Dave's comment and taking another look at Tim's photo I agree with Dave's assessment... which means that the train is on the GW&GC Jt.... and as the route is four track in the photo then the train is on the down main and heading to Brum (and maybe beyond).

regards, Graham

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The LT bus garage was to the south of the town - now a DIY store. I do not recall any Green Line buses using the station forecourt during the period 1960-69 when I used routes 362 and 363 which passed the station. I am on less certain ground when considering what is visible in the picture. Through the period when I took the bus up the hill I recall seeing buses from Oxford in the station forecourt... I do not recall any of the Thames Valley fleet using the station.

I've just had a look in my 1963 Thames Valley Traction timetable and there were a number of their local High Wycombe services which started and terminated at the railway station rather than the usual Frogmoor bus stand/station - especially at rush hours and on Sundays.

LT country services appeared to start and terminate near the old town hall.

 

[Dog Star]

I've just had a look in my 1963 Thames Valley Traction timetable and there were a number of their local High Wycombe services which started and terminated at the railway station rather than the usual Frogmoor bus stand/station - especially at rush hours and on Sundays.

Well, I have learnt things today... thank you.

 

[76043]

The front axle on that bus doesn't have an LT/RT style hub cap either.
Tony

 

[oldravendale]

Further thanks Graham and David - Oh, and Tony too! This info may be a bit granular for me to add to these individual photos but I'll find a way of referencing it!

Unexpectedly I have a couple of hours to present a few more pictures.

King 6021 King Richard II on an up Birmingham train at High Wycombe on 14th April 1962 with a 57XX pannier tank alongside. It was an Old Oak Common engine, withdrawn at the end of September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport, around November the same year. (BR Database).

Edit: 6021 is heading north and just starting to cross into the platform road. There is a metal girder road bridge at north end on a gradient carrying the A404 up Amersham Hill.

As we know High Wycombe's platforms are staggered due to it's location. The road on the left in the photo is Gordon Road.



King 6027 King Richard I on a down Birkenhead train near Saunderton on 14th April 1962. It was a Stafford Road engine withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cox and Danks, Oldbury, in around July 1963. (BR Database).

Edit for further info: These two(see below) are taken further south (see below) between Saunderton Lee and Saunderton station with Callows Hill in the background, and where the up and down lines diverge before rejoining south of Princes Risborough.





WD 2-8-0 90466 on an up coal train near Saunderton on 14th April 1962. It belonged to Southall at the time but went to Warrington and Bolton before ending up at Colwick in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in December 1965. (SLS). It went to Draper's at Hull where it was scrapped in April 1966.

Edit for additional info: I think this has just exited Saunderton Tunnel. Which is between Bledlow-cum-Saunderton and Lacey Green on a direct west-east line close to the hamlet of Saunderton, just south of Princes Risborough. Saunderton station is further south closer to Bradenham and West Wycombe.



An unidentified Royal Scot on empty stock at Kensal Green on 6th April 1962.

Edit for additional info: In the station there is an ex-LMS/GEC North London/Watford suburban electric unit and in the right centre on the northbound fast line there appears to be a diesel hauled train looking at it's shape.

Royal Scot, cut out rear to cab side sheet (Fowler), Stanier cab side sheets were full plate with two windows) and sand boxes on running boards beside firebox are Royal Scot only features.



Brian

 

[Dan Randall]

King 6021 King Richard II on an up Birmingham train at High Wycombe on 14th April 1962 with a 57XX pannier tank alongside. It was an Old Oak Common engine, withdrawn at the end of September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Newport, around November the same year. (BR Database).

I’m no expert on High Wycombe station, but I reckon that King’s heading in the down direction? I seem to recall a metal girder bridge at the country end of the station.


Regards

Dan

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

An unidentified Royal Scot, rebuilt Patriot or perhaps a rebuilt Jubilee on empty stock at Kensal Green on 6th April 1962.

Interesting photo. In the station there is an ex-LMS/GEC North London/Watford suburban electric unit and in the right centre on the northbound fast line there appears to be a diesel hauled train looking at it's shape.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I’m no expert on High Wycombe station, but I reckon that King’s heading in the down direction? I seem to recall a metal girder bridge at the country end?

Quite correct, it is heading north and just starting to cross into the platform road. There is a metal girder road bridge at north end on a gradient carrying the A404 up Amersham Hill.

As we know High Wycombe's platforms are staggered due to it's location. The road on the left in the photo is Gordon Road.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

WD 2-8-0 90466 on an up coal train near Saunderton on 14th April 1962. It belonged to Southall at the time but went to Warrington and Bolton before ending up at Colwick in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in December 1965. (SLS). It went to Draper's at Hull where it was scrapped in April 1966.

I think this has just exited Saunderton Tunnel. Which is between Bledlow-cum-Saunderton and Lacey Green on a direct west-east line close
to the hamlet of Saunderton, just south of Princes Risborough. Saunderton station is further south closer to Bradenham and West Wycombe.

King 6027 King Richard I on an up Birkenhead train near Saunderton on 14th April 1962. It was a Stafford Road engine withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cox and Danks, Oldbury, in around July 1963. (BR Database).

These two are taken further south between Saunderton Lee and Saunderton station with Callows Hill in the background, and where the up and down lines diverge before rejoining south of Princes Risborough.

This 1:25,000 1937-61 NLS OS extract may assist with the locations. Princes Risborough (north) and Saunderton (south) stations are highlighted in red and Saunderton Tunnel in blue. The green arrows roughly show where I think the photos were taken from - both from footpaths.

 

[simond]

Thanks so much, Dave. I should certainly have looked more closely at the photo at Headstone lane because the location is obvious (Tim had shown the location for all these as the bridge south of Kenton Station) and I'd simply failed to note the tube train on the extreme right of the photo of 46206. I've included both these corrections in the original script accompanying the photos.

A nice sequence here of 14XX 0-4-2T 1421 on the 1.54 train to Bourne End on 14th April 1962. There's a "Maidenhead" board on the rear of the coach. Home shed at the time was Reading, thence to Exeter in November, then Gloucester Barnwood a year later before withdrawal in December 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Birds, Risca, Newport, by the end of May 1964. (Rail UK).

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King 6026 King John on the up Cambrian Coast Express stated to be at Saunderton but did the CCE route take the train passed Saunderton? on 14th April 1962. Seen previously in post #1810 6026 King John was an Old Oak Common engine withdrawn in September 1962, (SLS) thence to Swindon Works where it was scrapped by the end of 1963. (BR Database).

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Tim took this one from an Intercity Paddington to Birmingham train on 14th April 1962. We have no further details.

Edit: If we assume that this photo was taken on the New Line, as the previous and following photos, then the presence of the electrified lines to the RHS mark this out as between Old Oak and South Ruislip. The housing beyond the underground lines at the same level as the BR lines suggests between Greenford and south of Northolt Jcn..

Since, I think, the LT lines are not to the east of the GW lines then this is an up train rather than a PDN to Brum service.

The LT Central Line is on the south western side and I would go further and narrow this down to between South Ruislip (in the distance) and Ruislip Gardens. Judging by the smoke trail the photo was taken from a northbound train looking towards the rear while crossing the bridge over Bridgwater Road - of which the girders can just be seen on the bottom far right..

View attachment 199422

King 6008 King James II on a Paddington to Shrewsbury train at High Wycombe on14th April 1962. It was a Stafford Road engine from February 1959 and withdrawn in June 1962. (SLS). It was demolished at Swindon works during January 1963. (BR Database).

Edit: The bus in the forecourt lookes like a Thames Valley Traction Company Bristol.

I am not aware of many photos being taken from such a vantage point... was Tim up the ladder of the water tower on the up platform... was the camera pointed through the railings on the retaining wall?

I would say this was taken from Totteridge Road over or through the railings of the retaining wall. I don't think the water tower ladder would be tall enough to obtain the same angle.

View attachment 199423

Brian

The bird’s eye photo of King James ll raises a question regarding a comment made to me many years ago by a guy who had been a signalman, though I know not where.

He said that the trapezoid top panel of a western firebox was normally painted black. I’m not at all sure that one can differentiate in this photo between the colour of that panel, of the sides of the firebox (presumed green) and of the cab roof (surely matt black). It does look dull, but was presumably rarely if ever cleaned.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

King 6027 King Richard I on an up Birkenhead train near Saunderton on 14th April 1962. It was a Stafford Road engine withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cox and Danks, Oldbury, in around July 1963. (BR Database).

I've just looked at these two again and believe the train is heading north (down) rather than south (up).

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dan and Dave. All your info has been added and the changes made from "up" to "down" and vice versa. Very much appreciated.

As for the colour of the firebox, Simon, I'm in no position to comment but it's not something I noticed even on engines freshly out of Swindon Works. But then again, I was (and remain) somewhat low to the ground which makes it difficult to see that high...

Britannia 70043 Lord Kitchener on the 5.25 Euston-Northampton at Kensal Green on 6th April 1962. I'll beat Dave to it this time and suggest there's a 501 EMU in the adjacent DC lines station. 70043 had recently been transferred to Longsight from Aston but then went back to Aston in June. There followed spells at Willesden, Crewe North and Crewe South before withdrawal in August 1965. (SLS). It ended up at T W Ward, Beighton, where it was scrapped by the end of October. (BR Database).



Stanier 2-6-4T 42478 on a Euston to Watford train at South Kenton on 6th April 1962. This has been seen previously in post #2567. 42478 was a Willesden engine in 1962 and moved around a lot thereafter, ending up at Bangor in February 1965 from where it was immediately withdrawn. (BR Database). Or, if you prefer, Aston in January 1965 where it was withdrawn in February. (SLS). Rail UK agrees that the final shed was Bangor, withdrawal in February and that the loco then went to Motherwell Machinery & Scrap at Wishaw and a scrap date at the end of June 1965. WHTS agrees with the withdrawal date but throws in a curved ball by stating that it was seen at Eastfield, Glasgow, in store between April and August. The location of Eastfield may well be because it was on its way to Motherwell Machinery (which WHTS also gives as the yard responsible for the loco's demolition) and not the final operating shed and I'm wondering if the observations at Eastfield between July and August are some of the corrupted info.



Two shots of Black 5 44780 on a down Rugby train at South Kenton on 6th April 1962. 44780 had been at Willesden since the beginning of July 1961 and thereafter, as did so may of the class, moved around the system ending up at Newton Heath in December 1967 where it was withdrawn at the end of June 1968. (SLS). It went to Cohens (Cargo Fleet) where it was scrapped in October. (BR Database).





Same loco and recorded as a down Rugby so probably the same service on 5th April.

The photos of South Kenton are interesting as they show the London Transport safety system which used to be seen and still seen in the sub-surface and tube tunnels - something I've never seen in photos of these surface lines.

They are bare telephone wires carried on porcelain insulators which when shorted by the driver turned off the traction current to the 3rd and 4th rails. In this case the driver would short these by holding up a baton with a copper sleeve at one end. In other cases the driver could clip a telephone to these and contact the line's control centre.

On the south end of the platform the bare telephone wires are carried on brackets from the lighting columns.





Stanier 2-6-4T 42616 on the 5.25 Euston to Tring train at South Kenton on 6th April 1962. This had been a Watford engine since September 1961 and moved to Willesden in April 1965 before perambulating around the system, then to the ER at Low Moor in June 1967 where it was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It went to Drapers of Hull where it was scrapped by the end of March 1968.

The photos of South Kenton are interesting as they show the London Transport safety system which used to be seen and still seen in the sub-surface and tube tunnels - something I've never seen in photos of these surface lines.

They are bare telephone wires carried on porcelain insulators which when shorted by the driver turned off the traction current to the 3rd and 4th rails. In this case the driver would short these by holding up a baton with a copper sleeve at one end. In other cases the driver could clip a telephone to these and contact the line's control centre.



...and on 5th April 1962 from the same location and also on the 5.25 Euston to Tring.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The photos of South Kenton are interesting as they show the London Transport safety system which used to be seen and still seen in the sub-surface and tube tunnels - something I've never seen in photos of these surface lines.

They are bare telephone wires carried on porcelain insulators which when shorted by the driver turned off the traction current to the 3rd and 4th rails. In this case the driver would short these by holding up a baton with a copper sleeve at one end. In other cases the driver could clip a telephone to these and contact the line's control centre.



On the south end of the platform the bare telephone wires are carried on brackets from the lighting columns.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for that, Dave. I had noted those wires but thought they were probably for the guard to indicate to the driver that it's safe to proceed, you know, by ringing a bell or something! However, thinking about it that's absurd as there'd be a signal sent to driver's cab, being all electric. Stupid boy. That assembly also appears in a few of the upcoming photos.

Fairburn 2-6-4T 42117 on the 5.50 Euston to Watford at South Kenton on 6th April 1962. It had been a Willesden engine since 1950 and was withdrawn from there at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Derby Works in May 1963. (Rail UK).



Another Fairburn 2-6-4T, this time 42066 on the 4.55 Euston to Bletchley at Kilburn High Road on 5th April 1962. We've seen this quite recently in post #2582. It had been a Willesden engine since March and then, as so many did, moved from shed to shed, ending up at Low Moor on the ER in June 1967 where it was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, in February 1968. (BR Database).



This is a cracker and not just because it shows those extensions on the lamp arms to which Dave referred. The DC train in the platform is one of the LMS sets prior to the wholesale introduction of the 501 units. The Princess Coronation is 46233 Duchess of Sutherland on an up Liverpool train at South Kenton Station on 5th April 1962. This was previously in post #1807. 46233 was an Edge Hill engine in 1962 and was withdrawn in February 1964. It was, however, an escapee from the cutter's torch and survives in preservation. The pub, The Windemere, in the background is Grade 2 listed.

The electric set is one of the LMS/GEC units indroduced in 1926-32. The driving cars were built by the Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Company (MCCW), the driving trailer thirds by the Midland Railway Carriage and Wagon Company and the intermediate composite trailers by the Clayton Wagon Company.

More information and history of the builders:
Metro Cammell/Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Company (MCCW)
Midland Railway Carriage and Wagon Company
Clayton Wagon Company



One of the magnificent Fowler 2-6-4 tanks 42366 on the 5.50 Euston to Watford at South Kenton Station on 5th April 1962. It had been a Willesden engine since September 1959, and in June 1962 moved to Chester. It was withdrawn in April 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works in June.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

This is a cracker and not just because it shows those extensions on the lamp arms to which Dave referred. The DC train in the platform is one of the LMS sets prior to the wholesale introduction of the 501 units. The Princess Coronation is 46233 Duchess of Sutherland on an up Liverpool train at South Kenton Station on 5th April 1962. This was previously in post #1807. 46233 was an Edge Hill engine in 1962 and was withdrawn in February 1964. It was, however, an escapee from the cutter's torch and survives in preservation. The pub, The Windemere, in the background is Grade 2 listed.

The electric set is one of the LMS/GEC units indroduced in 1926-32. The driving cars were built by the Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Company (MCCW), the driving trailer thirds by the Midland Railway Carriage and Wagon Company and the intermediate composite trailers by the Clayton Wagon Company.

More information and history of the builders:
Metro Cammell/Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Company (MCCW)
Midland Railway Carriage and Wagon Company
Clayton Wagon Company

 

[mickoo]

An unidentified Royal Scot, rebuilt Patriot or perhaps a rebuilt Jubilee on empty stock at Kensal Green on 6th April 1962.


View attachment 199458

Brian

Royal Scot, cut out rear to cab side sheet (Fowler), Stanier cab side sheets were full plate with two windows) and sand boxes on running boards beside firebox are Royal Scot only features.