Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dave and Mick for the additional and clarifying info. Regular watchers of this thread will note that I've started to incorporate new info and corrections in the commentary accompanying the photos. The reasons are two fold. Firstly we get a full description attached to the photos and secondly I can just copy this on to the file for each photo instead of having to collect the info together during periodic housekeeping. Please all just keep the additional stuff and even more importantly corrections coming!

Jubilee 45631 Tanganyika on arrival at Euston on 6th April 1962. It was a Crewe North engine, moving to Saltley in March 1963 where it was withdrawn in August 1964 (SLS) although Rail UK and BR Database advise wthdrawal from Crewe North in August 1964. There is general agreement, though, that it was scrapped at Cashmore's, Great Bridge, at the end of 1964.



A gratuitous and unidentified Britannia probably photographed while winding the film having loaded the camera. I suspect this is from the Kenton Recreation Ground on 6th April 1962. I believe this is on the West Coast mainline and the loco is on the slow lines heading south as there appears to be the end of another train on the fast lines heading south. My evidence for this is the cable conduits look very similar to those in earlier posts of Kenton and South Kenton and the distance between the cable conduit and the loco is not great enough for the two electric lines.

A reason for this not being on the Met & GC is the cable conduits on this line are on the far side and not visible from Northwick Park. Added to which if this is 70021 Morning Star she was a Willesden based loco around 1962. it appears there is a hut or building in the background and house chimneys - perhaps the following photos in the sequence on the same negative roll may shed more light.

The Britannia is interesting. Whilst the cab image is incomplete and thus isn't obvious whether it has a BR1d or a BR1a tender, the name plate is probably two words with the second being rather shorter than the first. The 'stars' 70021, 25, 27 and 29 would fit. Polar Star [26] would have had altered deflector handrails in 1962 following the Steventon accident so can be excluded. The coupling rods are the non-fluted type and the connecting rod is fluted so that might also help.

I fully endorse Arun's assessment. The finger is pointing fairly firmly at 70021 Morning Star. The other three 'Stars" had all had the revised WR smoke deflectors with handholds rather than handrails fitted prior to 1960. 70021 also had the plain coupling rods and fluted connecting rod as Arun describes.



An unidentified Fairburn 2-6-4T on an up local train at North Wembley on 6th April 1962.



Princess Coronation 46246 City of Manchester on the down Royal Highlander Inverness Sleeper at North Wembley on 6th April 1962 with the Wrigley's factory in the background. This was a Camden engine, withdrawn in January 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped in Crewe Works by the end of May. (Rail UK).



Here's City of Manchester again, but this time at Euston on 8th April 1962.





Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

The Britannia is interesting. Whilst the cab image is incomplete and thus isn't obvious whether it has a BR1d or a BR1a tender, the name plate is probably two words with the second being rather shorter than the first. The 'stars' 70021, 25, 27 and 29 would fit. Polar Star [26] would have had altered deflector handrails in 1962 following the Steventon accident so can be excluded. The coupling rods are the non-fluted type and the connecting rod is fluted so that might also help.

 

[daifly]

I fully endorse Arun's assessment. The finger is pointing fairly firmly at 70021 Morning Star. The other three 'Stars" had all had the revised WR smoke deflectors with handholds rather than handrails fitted prior to 1960. 70021 also had the plain coupling rods and fluted connecting rod as Arun describes.
Dave

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

A gratuitous and unidentified Britannia probably photographed while winding the film having loaded the camera. I suspect this is on the Met/GC at Northwick Park on 6th April 1962.

I believe this is on the West Coast mainline and the loco is on the slow lines heading south as there appears to be the end of another train on the fast lines heading south. My evidence for this is the cable conduits look very similar to those in earlier posts of Kenton and South Kenton and the distance between the cable conduit and the loco is not great enough for the two electric lines.

A reason for this not being on the Met & GC is the cable conduits on this line are on the far side and not visible from Northwick Park. Added to which if this is 70021 Morning Star she was a Willesden based loco around 1962.

I think this was taken from Kenton Recreation Ground as it appears there is a hut or building in the background and house chimneys - perhaps the following photos in the sequence on the same negative roll may shed more light.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Arun and Dave for refining the possibilities for that poor photo of the Britannia and to Yorkie Dave for the final suggestion regarding the identity of the loco. As for location - it makes perfect sense that this will be on the WCML - I was trying to think of an area around Kenton where the line is on an embankment and memory now stirred says that there is a low embankment through Kenton Recreation Ground.

Royal Scot 46128 The Lovat Scouts on the 4.40 Euston to Stafford train with 8F 48629 on the slow lines with an Engineers'/ ballast train at South Kenton on 8th April 1962. The Royal Scot was a Crewe North engine, moving to Carlisle Upperby in May, then back to Crewe North, Springs Branch and finally Carlisle Kingmoor in November where it was withdrawn in May 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Motherwell Mchinery and Scrap, Wishaw, in July. (Rail UK).

We've seen the 8F previously in post #1244. It lived at Willesden at the time of the photo (BR Database), moving to Birkenhead Mollington Street in October, then Saltley at the end of November. (SLS). It was withdrawn in September 1966 and also went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped by the end of the year. (BR Database)



Fowler 2-6-4T 42367 an a Watford local train at Euston on 9th April 1962. It was at its final shed, Willesden, by now and was withdrawn four months after this photo. (SLS). It was scrapped at Derby Works in early September the same year. (Rail UK).



Two now of Princess Coronation 46229 Duchess of Hamilton, parcels in the foregound, awaiting departure on the down Merseyside Express at Euston on 9th April 1962. It has been in these pages several times previously and the history is well known but just to say that it was at its final shed at the time, Edge Hill, and was withdrawn from there in February 1964. (SLS).






Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

If I remember correctly when LMS number 6128 'The Lovat Scouts' was in charge of the Royal Train just after the war in the late 1940's, when the then King and Queen , King George VI and Queen Elizabeth, made a Royal Visit to the City of Leicester. I clearly remember the delight of seeing my first ever 'Royal Scot' class heading south out of the city as the royal party returned to London. At the time I was somewhere around the age of nine or ten years....... .

Roger

 

[oldravendale]

What a lovely memory, Roger.

LSWR M7 0-4-4T 30320 on an empty stock shunt at Waterloo on 11th April 1962. I have fond memories of the M7s on these duties. 30320 had been at Nine Elms since 1952 and was withdrawn in February 1963. (SLS). For some reason the SLS records it being transferred to the Western Region in January! It went to P Woods (Shipbreaking) at Queenborough, Kent, where it was scrapped at the end of April 1964.

The length of the smoke trail and presence of headcode discs above the front buffers indicates this is an empty stock train heading for Clapham Junction.



Schools 4-4-0 30936 Cranleigh backing in to Waterloo on 11th April 1962. Note by this time the M7s were sharing duties with 57XX pannier tanks as seen on the extreme left. By now 30936 was a Nine Elms engine and was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works at the end of October 1963. (Rail UK).

I'm pretty sure the tall "chimney" in the background is the shot tower at Lambeth which, if it still existed today would doubtless be Grade 1 listed but was demolished in 1962 to make way for the National Theatre and development of the South Bank.. See Shot Tower, Lambeth - Wikipedia. As an interesting aside from the Wikipedia page which I acknowledge: "The tower was brick-built, with a slight taper. At the base it was 30 feet (9.1 m) in diameter, with 3-foot (0.91 m) thick walls. At the gallery located at the top, it was 20 feet (6.1 m) in diameter with 18-inch (460 mm) walls. The gallery chamber was surrounded by a cornice and parapet, with an iron balustrade. The gallery was 163 feet (50 m) high and was reached by a spiral staircase attached to the inside face of the wall. Halfway up there was a floor for making small lead shot. The gallery level at the top was used for making large shot.

In a lecture given in 1991 (now preserved in the British Library Sound Archive) Hugh Casson, who had been the Director of Architecture for the Festival of Britain in 1951, described the tower as "an extraordinary device. It's a factory chimney, with a staircase inside it, and you take hot lead up to the top, and you drop it down, in drops, and the drops don't make tears as you'd expect, to get thicker as they go, they're absolutely perfect globes, and they're tiny, you see, as you know, I mean, they're absolutely wee, like the shot you get inside a cartridge. And there were two old men, one at the bottom and one at the top. The one at the top was the one with the hot lead, and he dropped it down into a cold bucket at the bottom, and it cooled it off at once, and then it was taken away and sold. And these two old boys were rather like two old fishermen in a boat, they'd been there for years. And they didn't speak, most of the time they were separated by 150 feet of shaft." .[1]

And ex-LBSCR E4 tank engines also worked the station. Also note the ex-SR standard head/tail lamp on 30936.




The nameplate of rebuilt West Country 34042 at Waterloo on 11th April 1962. It was a Bournemouth engine, moving to Eastleigh in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in October 1965. (SLS). However, Rail UK and WHTS record withdrawal in July 1967, Rail UK stating withdrawal was from Bournemouth and a scrapping date of March 1968



Standard Class 5 73110 The Red Knight on a down Weymouth train at Clapham Junction on 31st March 1962. It had been at Nine Elms, moved to Eastleigh in September 1964 and then Guildford in October 1965 where it was withdrawn in January 1967. (SLS and BR Database). It was scrapped in June 1967 at Cashmore's Newport.

The coach on the line behind (in front of the loco) is a corridor trailer third from a 4-COR set - recognisable from the half compartment at the gangway end.

The 6-PUL and 6-PAN sets also had this type of corridor trailer third but are ruled out as they operated from London Bridge or Victoria on central section services. Although Victoria (Brighton side) services towards Croydon passed through Clapham Junction they would done so on the ex-LBSC lines nearest the camera.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

LSWR M7 0-4-4T 30320 on an empty stock shunt at Waterloo on 11th April 1962. I have fond memories of the M7s on these duties. 30320 had been at Nine Elms since 1952 and was withdrawn in February 1963. (SLS). For some reason the SLS records it being transferred to the Western Region in January! It went to P Woods (Shipbreaking) at Queenborough, Kent, where it was scrapped at the end of April 1964.

The length of the smoke trail and presence of headcode discs above the front buffers indicates this is an empty stock train heading for Clapham Junction.

Schools 4-4-0 30936 Cranleigh backing in to Waterloo on 11th April 1962. Note by this time the M7s were sharing duties with 57XX pannier tanks as seen on the extreme left.

And ex-LBSCR E4 tank engines (post #2544). Also note the ex-SR standard head/tail lamp on 30936.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Standard Class 5 73110 The Red Knight on a down Weymouth train at Clapham Junction on 31st March 1962. It had been at Nine Elms, moved to Eastleigh in September 1964 and then Guildford in October 1965 where it was withdrawn in January 1967. (SLS and BR Database). It was scrapped in June 1967 at Cashmore's Newport.

The coach on the line behind (in front of the loco) is a corridor trailer third from a 4-COR set - recognisable from the half compartment at the gangway end.

The 6-PUL and 6-PAN sets also had this type of corridor trailer third but are ruled out as they operated from London Bridge or Victoria on central section services. Although Victoria (Brighton side) services towards Croydon passed through Clapham Junction they would done so on the ex-LBSC lines nearest the camera.

 

[76043]

Nice shot of the Dorchester nameplate. Reminds me that Dublo Collectors go bananas over a three-rail Dorchester.
Tony

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Dave, for adding meat to the bones. As you'll see, now attached to the photo descriptions.

I didn't know that the Hornby version of Dorchester was so sought after. But then, not being a Hornby 3-rail collector I suppose I'd not be aware!

Royal Scot 46110 Grenadier Guardsman on the 4.25 Euston to Wolverhampton train at North Wembley on 1st Apr 1962. This has been on these pages quite recently, in post #2595. 46110 belonged to Edge Hill at the time and moved to Carlisle Kingmoor in July 1963 where it was withdrawn in February 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams, Shettleston by the end of December. (Rail UK).



Another Royal Scot, this time 46127 Old Contemptibles on the 4.40 Euston-Stafford at North Wembley on 1st April 1962. This is another loco which has graced these pages recently, in post #2592. In April 1962 46127 was a Crewe North engine, moving to Carlisle Upperby in early May where it was withdrawn in December. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works in early May 1963. (Rail UK).



Princess 46208 Princess Helena Victoria on an up express at North Wembley on 1st April 1962. Another recent visitor to these pages, this time in post #2528. 46208 had been an Edge Hill engine since 1951 and was withdrawn in October 1962. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works and was scrapped in November. (Rail UK).



Also seen recently here, in post #2618, this is Princess Coronation 46233 Duchess of Sutherland on a down Merseyside Express at North Wembley on 1st April 1962. 46233 was an Edge Hill engine in 1962 and was withdrawn in February 1964. It was, however, an escapee from the cutter's torch and survives in preservation.



Probably, and in the belief that the last number on the loco cab size is 6, and the nameplate is sans regimental badge then of the 6 potentials, the only one without a crest is 46156 The South Wales Borderer, a Holyhead engine at the time and with the full load of coal quite possibly going thus far eventually. It last had a works visit in April 61 so that doesn't disbar it. It's on a down Crewe Parcels - but as there are milk tankers in the consist could this be a milk train? - at North Wembley on 1st April 1962. 46156 was a Holyhead engine which moved about a bit after that and was another of the unfortunates which ended up at Annesley on the GCR where it was withdrawn in October 1964. (SLS). It was finally at Drapers Hull where it met its end in February 1965.

Looks like a horse box behind the tender, the position suggests that there might have been a horse on board. Would milk wagons be run in mixed freight on the main line? Given it’s a down train, might they not be returning empties?

GC men were not fond of anything that the LM authorities supplied and quite rightly as Martin says above, nearly all the Scots and Jubilees supplied were well worn to put it mildly. At that time my work took me daily alongside the GC line south of Leicester and on many occasions I saw locos struggling with relatively light trains. All a far cry from the days of A3's, V2's and B1's tearing down the bank towards Leicester or making a brisk climb in the other direction. It was just another case of old rivalries which killed off a number of lines in nationalisation days - the GC and S&D being two of the more notable examples. It is all water under the bridge now but the happier memories are still there.

The milk tankers are likely to be returning empties. Otherwise why would milk be transported away from London? The position of the locomotive headcode lamps indicates an express freight (parcels, livestock, milk, perishables) and all vehicles fully fitted with continuous brakes.

A few extra details about the train - the Horsebox is LNER in design (but might well be a BR build), the milk tanks are ex-LMS vehicles with 3000 gallon tanks (sloping axleboxes) with ladder arrangements that say very clearly that they're United Dairies/Unigate vehicles both at the end, rather than the centre of the tanks - LMS Milk tank wagons | W44546_LMR__m_. So that might suggest a point of origin?

The bridge in the background carries the GC Neasden Jct -Northolt Jct link.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Crikey, over a year ago. I'm not in an easy position to check anything at the moment however I seem to remember that Leicester GC closed at the end of Jun62 when Annesley became a LM shed. I think the use of Royal Scots on the GC was determined by how knackered they were, if they were any good the LM used them elsewhere. I might have a tad more at home, the hospital library is a bit limited when it comes to rebuilt Scots.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Bless you, Martin. Thanks for taking the trouble to comment, particularly at this difficult time. I'm delighted to see that the photos remain a source of stimulation.

Brian

 

[simond]

Looks like a horse box behind the tender, the position suggests that there might have been a horse on board. Would milk wagons be run in mixed freight on the main line? Given it’s a down train, might they not be returning empties?

 

[Roger Pound]

GC men were not fond of anything that the LM authorities supplied and quite rightly as Martin says above, nearly all the Scots and Jubilees supplied were well worn to put it mildly. At that time my work took me daily alongside the GC line south of Leicester and on many occasions I saw locos struggling with relatively light trains. All a far cry from the days of A3's, V2's and B1's tearing down the bank towards Leicester or making a brisk climb in the other direction. It was just another case of old rivalries which killed off a number of lines in nationalisation days - the GC and S&D being two of the more notable examples. It is all water under the bridge now but the happier memories are still there.

Roger

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

We've not seen this one previously. It's Royal Scot 46106 Gordon Highlander on a down Crewe Parcels - but as there are milk tankers in the consist could this be a milk train?

As Simon has suggested the milk tankers are likely to be returning empties. Otherwise why would milk be transported away from London? The position of the locomotive headcode lamps indicates an express freight (parcels, livestock, milk, perishables) and all vehicles fully fitted with continuous brakes.

The bridge in the background carries the GC Neasden Jct -Northolt Jct link.

 

[oldravendale]

Simon and Dave. I'm most certainly inclined to agree with you - this is not a parcels train as recorded by Tim. The horsebox rather proves it's not a milk train either. I suspect it's returning milk empties in an otherwise fast freight and parcels train.

Your comment about the Scots on the GC is well made, Roger. Firstly the LM wanted to kill the route off, so what better way than supplying worn out locos that would rarely keep to the schedules? Secondly the Royal Scots were certainly way past their best. As we've seen on these pages they could haul prodigious loads on their home ground where they were kept in good order. They were far from in their best condition when handed to the GC so no wonder the GC crews didn't get on with them. The same could be said of the Black Fives on the GC which were regular failures when on the GC.

In happier days here's Standard 4 4-6-0 75031on the 4.55 Euston-Bletchley at Kilburn High Road on 2nd April 1962. It was a Willesden engine and had been since September 1961. It moved to Aston in December 1962 and finally Stoke in October 1963 where it was withdrawn in February 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Beighton in May the same year. (BR Database).



Fairburn 2-6-4T 42100 on the 5.35 Euston-Tring at Kilburn High Rd on 2nd April 1962. This was a Watford engine at the time, moving to Crewe North in June 1962 and back to Watford in December where it was withdrawn in March 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Derby Works by the end of May 1963. (Rail UK). Note the Class 501 EMU on the left.



Stanier 2-6-4T 42544 on the 5.50 Euston-Watford at Kilburn High Road fast lines for some reason on 2nd April 1962. It had been a Rugby engine since March, moved to Stafford in June and was withdrawn in December. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works where it was scrapped by the end of May 1963. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[chigley]

perhaps there was cows in the horse box so they could have fresh milk

 

[mickoo]

We've not seen this one previously. It's Royal Scot 46106 Gordon Highlander on a down Crewe Parcels - but as there are milk tankers in the consist could this be a milk train? - at North Wembley on 1st April 1962. It had been a Derby engine since July 1961 and moved on to the GC at Leicester in June 1962. It went on to Carlisle Upperby at the end of the same month and was withdrawn in December. (SLS). However, Rail UK say the loco was withdrawn from Leicester Central in December. The Railway Observer record the loco as being reinstated in February 1963 due to the harsh weather conditions and that it was observed working on the 4th, 5th and 16th. Stored 17th March 1963 at Upperby (SLS). WHTS and Rail UK agree that the loco was scrapped at Crewe Works but WHTS advise it was observed there in April and the Railway Observer that the remains were seen there in May. Rail UK agrees with a disposal date in April.

It seems to me that there's a huge confusion of information here and I wonder if anyone has data which will pull the bones out of this lot!

In post #1689 on 22nd October 2022 Martin Shaw advised:

"For the possibly most definitive record,
Two Scots were transferred from Saltley" (BR Database agrees with Saltley from September 1961 rather than Derby) to Leicester GC for a period of a few weeks and then back to the LM again at Upperby. This was obviously a try out to see if the motive power situation on the GC under LM control could be improved.
46106 12/5/62 - 30/6/62, wdn 8/12/62
46118 19/5/62 - 30/6/62, wdn 13/6/64"

But was the loco actually ever reinstated?

Looks like a horse box behind the tender, the position suggests that there might have been a horse on board. Would milk wagons be run in mixed freight on the main line? Given it’s a down train, might they not be returning empties?

GC men were not fond of anything that the LM authorities supplied and quite rightly as Martin says above, nearly all the Scots and Jubilees supplied were well worn to put it mildly. At that time my work took me daily alongside the GC line south of Leicester and on many occasions I saw locos struggling with relatively light trains. All a far cry from the days of A3's, V2's and B1's tearing down the bank towards Leicester or making a brisk climb in the other direction. It was just another case of old rivalries which killed off a number of lines in nationalisation days - the GC and S&D being two of the more notable examples. It is all water under the bridge now but the happier memories are still there.

The milk tankers are likely to be returning empties. Otherwise why would milk be transported away from London? The position of the locomotive headcode lamps indicates an express freight (parcels, livestock, milk, perishables) and all vehicles fully fitted with continuous brakes.

The bridge in the background carries the GC Neasden Jct -Northolt Jct link.




View attachment 200208

Brian

Definitely not 46106 I'm afraid.

46106 was unique in having BR style straight smoke deflectors, not the swept curved ones fitted on Royal Scots and rebuilt Patriots, as far as I know it carried them until scrapping.



The image is too poor to enlarge and see more clearly what it might be.

 

[LarryG]

When it comes to the final days of the GCR mainline, views are at best contradictory when there are railway videos telling us that men were getting good work out of the LMS locos with very fast running. No matter how run down a Black Five or Scot was, they were probably a better bet than any of Robinson's 4-6-0's which the LNER couldn't wait to dump after the war.