Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks again, Martin, for your further forensic work. The evidence has built sufficiently for us to describe the loco as almost certainly 30937. As for the survival of the Schools, that's a difficult one to answer, isn't it? On the same basis one could ask how a large number of the the original Bulleid Pacifics survived right to the end of steam on the Southern when the rebuilds, which we were told were easier engines from a maintenance perspective were being scrapped around them.
Adam - as ever I'm grateful for you adding to our knowledge of the wagons. Those details are now on the script accompanying the photo.
Tony - I suspect your suggestion that we may be looking at a failed Black 5 here may be correct, but I like to think that the diesel is being pushed by the steam loco....
Equally possible, I guess, is that this was simply a balancing move to get one of the locos to a new location while avoiding a light engine movement.
Princess Coronation 46225 on the up Mancunian at North Wembley on 31st March 1962. 46225 was a Carlisle Upperby engine and withdrawn from there in September 1964. (SLS). It then went to Arnott Young at Troon where it was scrapped in December. (BR Database). It was last seen in post #2075.
Another Princess Coronation, this time 46251 City of Nottingham on a down Perth train at North Wembley on 31st March 1962. Last seen in post #1761 46251 was based at Crewe North and returned there after a spell at Camden. It was withdrawn from Crewe in September 1964. It was recorded as stored at Crewe North in August. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was scrapped in December.
Two for the price of one here, as 8F 48624 and Black 5 44814, one north bound and the other heading south at North Wembley on 31st March 1962. 48624 had been a Willesden loco since 1943, withdrawn in July 1965 (BR Database and SLS) and it entered Barry in October 1965. It left in July 1981 for Peak Rail where it was restored to service in May 2009. It's now on the GCR and published info says it's awaiting overhaul, although I believe that is currently ongoing. I took a photo of this loco myself while it was in the yard at Barry. 44814 had been a Saltley engine since June 1950. In May 1964 it moved to Rugby and then around the system before ending up at Crewe South in April 1967 where it was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It then went to Cohens at Kettering where it was scrapped in February 1968.
A wooden chassis on that oil tanker nearest the camera is also interesting for 1962. @hrmspaul (and Tourret) can offer all sorts of fairly archaic stuff from that outfit running well into the '60s. Esso, in contrast, modernised fairly efficiently, per the Airfix kit, and later the monobloc tanks of 30plus ton capacity.
Three here of Rebuilt Jubilee 45735 Comet on a down fitted freight at North Wembley on 31st March 1962. The loco has been in these pages a few times previously and details were in post #1716. 45735 had been at Edge Hill but transferred officially to Willesden at the beginning of February 1962. It was one of the locos which ended up on the GC during its dying days being withdrawn from Annesley in October 1964. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was disposed of in January 1965. (BR Database)
Brian
Adam - as ever I'm grateful for you adding to our knowledge of the wagons. Those details are now on the script accompanying the photo.
Tony - I suspect your suggestion that we may be looking at a failed Black 5 here may be correct, but I like to think that the diesel is being pushed by the steam loco....
Equally possible, I guess, is that this was simply a balancing move to get one of the locos to a new location while avoiding a light engine movement.Princess Coronation 46225 on the up Mancunian at North Wembley on 31st March 1962. 46225 was a Carlisle Upperby engine and withdrawn from there in September 1964. (SLS). It then went to Arnott Young at Troon where it was scrapped in December. (BR Database). It was last seen in post #2075.
Another Princess Coronation, this time 46251 City of Nottingham on a down Perth train at North Wembley on 31st March 1962. Last seen in post #1761 46251 was based at Crewe North and returned there after a spell at Camden. It was withdrawn from Crewe in September 1964. It was recorded as stored at Crewe North in August. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was scrapped in December.
Two for the price of one here, as 8F 48624 and Black 5 44814, one north bound and the other heading south at North Wembley on 31st March 1962. 48624 had been a Willesden loco since 1943, withdrawn in July 1965 (BR Database and SLS) and it entered Barry in October 1965. It left in July 1981 for Peak Rail where it was restored to service in May 2009. It's now on the GCR and published info says it's awaiting overhaul, although I believe that is currently ongoing. I took a photo of this loco myself while it was in the yard at Barry. 44814 had been a Saltley engine since June 1950. In May 1964 it moved to Rugby and then around the system before ending up at Crewe South in April 1967 where it was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It then went to Cohens at Kettering where it was scrapped in February 1968.
A wooden chassis on that oil tanker nearest the camera is also interesting for 1962. @hrmspaul (and Tourret) can offer all sorts of fairly archaic stuff from that outfit running well into the '60s. Esso, in contrast, modernised fairly efficiently, per the Airfix kit, and later the monobloc tanks of 30plus ton capacity.
Three here of Rebuilt Jubilee 45735 Comet on a down fitted freight at North Wembley on 31st March 1962. The loco has been in these pages a few times previously and details were in post #1716. 45735 had been at Edge Hill but transferred officially to Willesden at the beginning of February 1962. It was one of the locos which ended up on the GC during its dying days being withdrawn from Annesley in October 1964. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was disposed of in January 1965. (BR Database)
Brian
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LarryG
Western Thunderer
Someone must have been wealthy to take three shots of the same train haha. I suspect many of us resisted pressing the shutter in film days, one, because of the cost of film and two, because there were only a few frames to play with on medium format.
That said, the Royal Scots and their rebuilt look-alikes were fine machines and were worth two shots...
That said, the Royal Scots and their rebuilt look-alikes were fine machines and were worth two shots...
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
Some more thoughts on Royal Scots.
I think we have established beyond doubt that the pic is not 46106 because of the smoke deflectors.
The two locos loaned to Leicester GC.
46106 from Saltley between 12/5/62 - 30/6/62, whence it went on futher loan to Carlisle Upperby 30/6/62 -15/7/62, then became permanent allocation until 8/12/62 when it was Wdn.
46118 from Saltley between 19/5/62 - 30/6/62, whence it went on futher loan to Carlisle Upperby 30/6/62 -15/7/62, then became permanent allocation until 13/6/64 when it was Wdn.
46106 officially stored at Upperby 10/10/62-8/12/62
46118 officially stored at Upperby 5/10/62-19/11/62
I have found an intriguing note about 46106 in "Irwell Book of", wdn w/e 8/12/62 but reinstated for a short while the following year. I can't find anything in RCTS to support this but I've no doubt if it was basically in working order the early months of 63 would generate a need to use it, officially withdrawn or not.
More later.
Martin
I think we have established beyond doubt that the pic is not 46106 because of the smoke deflectors.
The two locos loaned to Leicester GC.
46106 from Saltley between 12/5/62 - 30/6/62, whence it went on futher loan to Carlisle Upperby 30/6/62 -15/7/62, then became permanent allocation until 8/12/62 when it was Wdn.
46118 from Saltley between 19/5/62 - 30/6/62, whence it went on futher loan to Carlisle Upperby 30/6/62 -15/7/62, then became permanent allocation until 13/6/64 when it was Wdn.
46106 officially stored at Upperby 10/10/62-8/12/62
46118 officially stored at Upperby 5/10/62-19/11/62
I have found an intriguing note about 46106 in "Irwell Book of", wdn w/e 8/12/62 but reinstated for a short while the following year. I can't find anything in RCTS to support this but I've no doubt if it was basically in working order the early months of 63 would generate a need to use it, officially withdrawn or not.
More later.
Martin
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AJC
Western Thunderer
Not to the Shell BP fleet, no! @hrmspaul (and Tourret) can offer all sorts of fairly archaic stuff from that outfit running well into the '60s. See Paul's gallery here: SMBP pre nationalisation tank wagons
Esso, in contrast, modernised fairly efficiently, per the Airfix kit, and later the monobloc tanks of 30plus ton capacity.
Adam
Err… no it hadn’t. Wilson didn’t make the ‘white heat of technology’ speech until September 1963.
The presence of twin L-shaped fuel and water tanks between the bogies suggests that this is one of the last-built class 24s, rather than the very similar first batch of class 25s, which lacked the water tanks. From memory, the first 20 class 25s (the ones without the horns alongside the headcode boxes) were NER machines, and the first batch of headcode box class 24s were all allocated to Scotland, so this is most likely to be one from the LMR batch comprising D5133 to D5150. I know, I know, the gorgeous Stanier machines are the main event here, so time to move on…….
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
Later the same day, img#2313. If the last digit of the number is a 6, and I'm not bold enough to say one way or the other, and the nameplate is sans regimental badge then of the 6 potentials, the only one without a crest is 46156 The South Wales Borderer, a Holyhead engine at the time and with the full load of coal quite possibly going thus far eventually. It last had a works visit in April 61 so that doesn't disbar it. I think that is a good as were going to get on this one.
Regards
Martin
Regards
Martin
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Larry - Tim was usually doing his own processing at the time and B & W film was not necessarily too expensive so he probably felt that there were occasions when three shots of the same loco were justified. Certainly those 7Ps were good machines.
Martin. Thank you for digging a lot further in to the history of the ostensibly 46105 picture. You've convinced me that the most likely candidate is 46156 and I'll be modifying my modified comments accordingly. It's interesting that you found reference to 46106 being in use after withdrawal. My reference to this comes from the Railway Observer.
Tony, Adam, Barry and 40057. Thank you for more wagon info and thank you David for the info about the Class 24. I changed my description from 24 to 25 as I was not aware that there were any headcode box Class 24s. If I find any more photos of Class 24/25 I'll be more careful.
A4 60021 Wild Swan on a Football Special leaving Kings Cross on 31st March 1962 taken from the York Road platform. This loco has been in these pages too many times to mention, most recently in post #2279 but in March 1962 it was allocated to Kings Cross and was moved to New England in June 1963 where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1964 at Doncaster Works. (BR Database). Note the Brush Type 2 Class 31 D5672 "over the shoulder" of the A4. It became 31 244 and had been allocated to Finsbury Park as D5672 from new. It went to Immingham in March 1967 and March in July 1975 before being withdrawn in May 1963. It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in September 1983. (BR Database).
As the Footex is heading north, the shadows show the sun to be in the east, it must be fairly early in the morning.
Fulham away to Burnley in the FA cup semi-final was actually played in Birmingham so unlikely.
Chelsea were at Bolton
West Ham were at West Brom
Arsenal at home
This leaves Tottenham V Man Utd in the other FA cup semi-final, played at Hillsborough, Sheffield as the most obvious choice. Spurs won 3-1. They would beat Burnley by the same score in the final.
A3 60059 Tracery light engine backing on to its train at Kings Cross on 31st March 1962 taken from the York Road platform. This loco has previously been seen in post #2554. 60059 left Doncaster Works in September 1961 with smoke deflectors and at the time of the photo was a Kings Cross engine, being withdrawn from there in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in the same month at Doncaster Works. (BR Database).
Here's the same loco, 60059 on the 10.25am Peterborough train at Kings Cross on 31st March 1962 taken from the York Road platform. Note the Deltic and Class 40 in the background.
A4 60031 Golden Plover on the 10.20am Leeds train at Kings Cross on 31st March 1962 taken from the York Road platform. We have to question the identification, though, as 60031 was a St Rollox engine, although the nameplate looks as though it could be Golden Plover. The loco was withdrawn from St Rollox at the end of October 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Shieldhall, during December 1965. There's an unidentified Class 31 on the left and another on the extreme right.
This shows both the KX widened Lines platforms - York Road on the immediate left (on which Tim was standing) and the Hotel Curve platform on the far right above the signalling cabinet. Note how it dips below the level of the platform 12 on which the distant class 31 is standing on.
The A4 could well be Golden Plover, it has the right A4 corridor tender and beyond that there is little or nothing to distinguish it from it's classmates. It had only just been allocated to St Rollox (Feb 62) having previously been at Haymarket for all it's BR ownership and probably before. Whilst the celebrated Aberdeen 3hr expresses hadn't yet become the domain of Ferryhill and St Rollox A4s en masse, I suspect that GP and subsequently 60027 Merlin (Jun 62) were being used for Aberdeen trains because they were surplus at Haymarket/St Margarets and were known quantities to the ScR Motive Power. This doesn't really explain why it was in London, perhaps the ER had borrowed it for the weekend as some of their own locos were on football duties.
Brian, you're right, I hadn't clocked 21 leaving earlier from the adjacent platform. The only niggle with the unknown being 21 which I didn't note above (well I did but edited it out) was the profusion of leaks at the front end, not very top shed at all, even in the last days the engines appeared to be kept reasonably clean and steam tight.
You can see the notched chimney fairing quite clearly on your image of 21. If it's not 21, which clearly it isn't then it has to be 31.
There are no other engines with short names and silver trimmed tenders (there are only four in total anyway) with 4' 6" hand rails, we only have two choices 21 or 31.
Britannia 70040 Clive of India on a Cleethorpes arrival at Kings Cross on 31st March 1962 taken from the York Road platform. Seen previously in post #2502 70040 was an Immingham engine at the time, moving to Carlisle Upperby and then Kingmoor where it was withdrawn in April 1967. (SLS). It went to J McWilliams, Shettleston where it was scrapped in November. (BR Database). Note the Class 24 and 31 diesels on the extreme right.
V2 60903 on the 11am Peterborough arrival at Kings Cross on 31st March 1962. It had been a Kings Cross engine since 1943 (BR Database) and was transferred to New England on 2nd February 1963 and was withdrawn eight days later. (SLS). It was scrapped in May at Doncaster Works. (BR Database).
Brian
Martin. Thank you for digging a lot further in to the history of the ostensibly 46105 picture. You've convinced me that the most likely candidate is 46156 and I'll be modifying my modified comments accordingly. It's interesting that you found reference to 46106 being in use after withdrawal. My reference to this comes from the Railway Observer.
Tony, Adam, Barry and 40057. Thank you for more wagon info and thank you David for the info about the Class 24. I changed my description from 24 to 25 as I was not aware that there were any headcode box Class 24s. If I find any more photos of Class 24/25 I'll be more careful.
A4 60021 Wild Swan on a Football Special leaving Kings Cross on 31st March 1962 taken from the York Road platform. This loco has been in these pages too many times to mention, most recently in post #2279 but in March 1962 it was allocated to Kings Cross and was moved to New England in June 1963 where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1964 at Doncaster Works. (BR Database). Note the Brush Type 2 Class 31 D5672 "over the shoulder" of the A4. It became 31 244 and had been allocated to Finsbury Park as D5672 from new. It went to Immingham in March 1967 and March in July 1975 before being withdrawn in May 1963. It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in September 1983. (BR Database).
As the Footex is heading north, the shadows show the sun to be in the east, it must be fairly early in the morning.
Fulham away to Burnley in the FA cup semi-final was actually played in Birmingham so unlikely.
Chelsea were at Bolton
West Ham were at West Brom
Arsenal at home
This leaves Tottenham V Man Utd in the other FA cup semi-final, played at Hillsborough, Sheffield as the most obvious choice. Spurs won 3-1. They would beat Burnley by the same score in the final.
A3 60059 Tracery light engine backing on to its train at Kings Cross on 31st March 1962 taken from the York Road platform. This loco has previously been seen in post #2554. 60059 left Doncaster Works in September 1961 with smoke deflectors and at the time of the photo was a Kings Cross engine, being withdrawn from there in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in the same month at Doncaster Works. (BR Database).
Here's the same loco, 60059 on the 10.25am Peterborough train at Kings Cross on 31st March 1962 taken from the York Road platform. Note the Deltic and Class 40 in the background.
A4 60031 Golden Plover on the 10.20am Leeds train at Kings Cross on 31st March 1962 taken from the York Road platform. We have to question the identification, though, as 60031 was a St Rollox engine, although the nameplate looks as though it could be Golden Plover. The loco was withdrawn from St Rollox at the end of October 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Shieldhall, during December 1965. There's an unidentified Class 31 on the left and another on the extreme right.
This shows both the KX widened Lines platforms - York Road on the immediate left (on which Tim was standing) and the Hotel Curve platform on the far right above the signalling cabinet. Note how it dips below the level of the platform 12 on which the distant class 31 is standing on.
The A4 could well be Golden Plover, it has the right A4 corridor tender and beyond that there is little or nothing to distinguish it from it's classmates. It had only just been allocated to St Rollox (Feb 62) having previously been at Haymarket for all it's BR ownership and probably before. Whilst the celebrated Aberdeen 3hr expresses hadn't yet become the domain of Ferryhill and St Rollox A4s en masse, I suspect that GP and subsequently 60027 Merlin (Jun 62) were being used for Aberdeen trains because they were surplus at Haymarket/St Margarets and were known quantities to the ScR Motive Power. This doesn't really explain why it was in London, perhaps the ER had borrowed it for the weekend as some of their own locos were on football duties.
Brian, you're right, I hadn't clocked 21 leaving earlier from the adjacent platform. The only niggle with the unknown being 21 which I didn't note above (well I did but edited it out) was the profusion of leaks at the front end, not very top shed at all, even in the last days the engines appeared to be kept reasonably clean and steam tight.
You can see the notched chimney fairing quite clearly on your image of 21. If it's not 21, which clearly it isn't then it has to be 31.
There are no other engines with short names and silver trimmed tenders (there are only four in total anyway) with 4' 6" hand rails, we only have two choices 21 or 31.
Britannia 70040 Clive of India on a Cleethorpes arrival at Kings Cross on 31st March 1962 taken from the York Road platform. Seen previously in post #2502 70040 was an Immingham engine at the time, moving to Carlisle Upperby and then Kingmoor where it was withdrawn in April 1967. (SLS). It went to J McWilliams, Shettleston where it was scrapped in November. (BR Database). Note the Class 24 and 31 diesels on the extreme right.
V2 60903 on the 11am Peterborough arrival at Kings Cross on 31st March 1962. It had been a Kings Cross engine since 1943 (BR Database) and was transferred to New England on 2nd February 1963 and was withdrawn eight days later. (SLS). It was scrapped in May at Doncaster Works. (BR Database).
Brian
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John Duffy
Western Thunderer
Re Wild Swan and the football special; perhaps someone who knows the location might be able to estimate the time of day to give a clue if this was leaving KX ahead of, or after a game. That weekend had FA Cup ties. Fulham were away to Burnley and Man Utd were in London at Tottenham. Why these would be heading down the ECML is uncertain. Another option might be Leeds United at Leyton Orient.
John
John
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
The first five in the sequence above were taken from the York Road platform.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
A4 60031 Golden Plover on the 10.20am Leeds train at Kings Cross on 31st March 1962. We have to question the identification, though, as 60031 was a St Rollox engine, although the nameplate looks as though it could be Golden Plover. The loco was withdrawn from St Rollox at the end of October 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Shieldhall, during December 1965. There's an unidentified Class 31 on the left and another on the extreme right.
Nice photo as it shows both the KX widened Lines platforms - York Road on the immediate left (on which Tim was standing) and the Hotel Curve platform on the far right above the signalling cabinet. You can see how it dips below the level of the platform 12 on which the distant class 31 is standing on.
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
The A4 could well be Golden Plover, it has the right A4 corridor tender and beyond that there is little or nothing to distinguish it from it's classmates. It had only just been allocated to St Rollox (Feb 62) having previously been at Haymarket for all it's BR ownership and probably before. Whilst the celebrated Aberdeen 3hr expresses hadn't yet become the domain of Ferryhill and St Rollox A4s en masse, I suspect that GP and subsequently 60027 Merlin (Jun 62) were being used for Aberdeen trains because they were surplus at Haymarket/St Margarets and were known quantities to the ScR Motive Power. This doesn't really explain why it was in London, perhaps the ER had borrowed it for the weekend as some of their own locos were on football duties.
Martin
Martin
John Duffy
Western Thunderer
Fulham away to Burnley in the FA cup semi-final was actually played in Birmingham so unlikely.
Chelsea were at Bolton
West Ham were at West Brom
Arsenal at home
This leaves Tottenham V Man Utd in the other FA cup semi-final, played at Hillsborough, Sheffield as the most obvious choice. Spurs won 3-1. They would beat Burnley by the same score in the final.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
At this time my dad also processed and printed his own B & W film. During this period my dad worked in the MOD Meteorological Office and would also 'acquire' 100' bulk rolls of film - which he cut into 36-40 frame lengths and loaded into cassettes - and photo printing paper for the darkroom!
I believe you could also buy 100' bulk rolls of 35mm B & W film relatively cheaply.
Rob R
Western Thunderer
I seem to remember that one of the more problematical (read expensive) bits of 35mm film production at Ilfords was getting it into the cassette. Bulk film could be knocked out quite cheaply, leaving the customer to worry about winding the cassette.
Hmm, that was a long time ago......
Hmm, that was a long time ago......