7mm Pencarrow - Cornish BR(S)

[Dog Star]

Buildings
Despite not being a huge layout Pencarrow does require quite a few buildings. The key buildings are:

• Main station building and canopy - Bodmin North using the Southern W estern Circle drawings (purchased on my behalf by Peter Cross)
• Porters building - Bodmin North using the Southern Western Circle drawings (purchased on my behalf by Peter Cross)
• Goods shed - Standard LSWR Type 1 as used on the North Cornwall Railway
• Provender store - Standard Exmouth Junction concrete product
• Signal box - Standard LSWR Type 3
• Goods office - Wenford Bridge based on my own measurements
• Warehouse - Bodmin North based on photos of Steven's Grain Store
• Cottages - Bodmin North based on measurements by Peter Cross for his own project
• Main overbridge - Steel bridge based on Cardell Road at Bodmin North
• Mineral line bridge - Stone arch based on Polbrook Road near Grogley (on the Wadebridge - Boscarne Jct line)

In the summer of 2017 I decided I needed to get a better feel of the layout with buildings on, so knocked up some card mock-ups to supplement the buildings I hadn't started building yet...

In the spring of 2023... how has your target list of buildings changed over time? What progress have you made against the list?

regards, Graham

 

[Richard Gawler]

"How to build a larger scale model building from styrene", thank you so much for the last four photos especially.

I'm assuming from the nil response to this question that either:
1. I bored everyone to death before they reached the question or
2. Nobody else on the forum makes buildings or
3. There's a hesitancy or reluctance to engage with this thread

So thinking more about the above reasons...
1. Are the posts too long, detailed or dull? I do generally also use a lot of photos as they are the 'currency of the forum'.
2. WT can be somewhat stock centric. Nothing wrong with that but I'd like to think there are others on here that enjoy making buildings.
3. Perhaps I'm a scary person or what I'm doing is so far beyond other mortals that comment is not possible. On the first count I hope not, on the second I find that laughably unlikely.

There's discussion on a @mickoo thread about 'like' vs comment. Perhaps the lack of two-way conversation is the WT way? Whilst I fully agree that 'like' is preferable to one or two word responses clogging up a thread, it would be nice though to have some conversation. It's a bit dull talking to myself.

Chris, I suspect I have triggered your detailed notes. I am enjoying them and learning new ideas from them. I have bookmarked page 112 of your topic. I missed your question, busy day yesterday. All of this being inconsequential to everyone on WT but it helps me to say this . . .

I think two-way communication depends on timing as well as experience. Right now, I am not anywhere near making a 7 mm scale model building from scratch, but one day I will be. So at the moment I have nothing useful to photograph to contribute, and not even a drawing to post to say "I want to build one of these". I have made buildings in smaller scales, sometimes styrene and sometimes card, but my methods will not scale up well for larger models which need some suitable strength. So please keep the posts coming.

 

[Dog Star]

Steven's Grain Store
It's the sort of building that you couldn't make up!

So you cannot be wrong then?

Making a start on the scribing, individual building sections were made separately then added to the main building frame.

The idea of building faux walls as small sections and then attaching the parts to a frame appeals to me. What downsides are there to this method?

regards, Graham

 

[Pencarrow]

In the spring of 2023... how has your target list of buildings changed over time? What progress have you made against the list?

Good question. The high level answer is that the initial plan has changed very little. I think that's down to making a small mock-up of the layout and trying things out on that first. It also helps part-setting the layout on a real place, with real buildings.

The only changes I've made have been to fit in the two iconic wharf buildings that were demolished when the LSWR built the passenger station. They have moved back a bit but are largely in the right place, just not the right time.

The other change from the original list has been the deletion of:

• Cottages - Bodmin North based on measurements by Peter Cross for his own project

Whilst they were correct for Bodmin, they were moved from their prototype location (which would have been off-board) to the rear right near the bridge. They would have been ok there but I long had a gut feeling something else would be better.

I didn't really click what that could be until I saw the 2mm layout which covers Padstow, Wadebridge and Bodmin (John and Jerry's). That set the seed for substituting the cottages with the buildings I'm currently making.

 

[Pencarrow]

So you cannot be wrong then?

The idea of building faux walls as small sections and then attaching the parts to a frame appeals to me. What downsides are there to this method?

regards, Graham

For me part of the fun of modelling real buildings is trying to work out just what's going on from often poor photos or on elevations that didn't get photographed. It's also fun trying to work out the 'history' of the building, when bits were added or changed etc.

The grain store was a great example of that and I'm sure, if the prototype still existed, the model would be wrong. But it doesn't exist and so, in the absence of a detailed survey, what I built was very much an interpretation. Somebody else's model would be different. Neither would be 100% right and there could be discussions on the relative merits.

Now you might get such a discussion on the relative merits of two versions of a loco (diesel traction seems to particularly attract microscopic attention) but you don't get that with buildings. With buildings my main aims though are to build something that is possible structurally, something that is worth looking at and something that looks like it could/should exist. You can be 'wrong' but still satisfy the aims.


Turning to the construction method for the grain store. This was my first big building after moving up from 4mm to 7mm. I quickly found that structural techniques I'd used previously didn't scale up successfully. This was also the first building where (deliberately) nothing was plumb or square or straight. Each elevation was also far from flat, particularly the buttresses.

The rear of the building is quite heavily braced. It didn't start this way. The mass and size meant bracing had to be added as it was built. This was a first step in the evolution of the approach I now have, admittedly after a few wrong turns.

Making parts of the building as separate modules was really down to convenience. Carving the stonework blocks was quite laborious and can at times use a lot of force and nasty tools. The modules are easy to work on and don't require a big space on the workbench. Separate modules also means that you don't damage or break the main model whilst using nasty tools and brute force!

Downsides? I've had to think about this but the only ones I can think of on this case are:
* Weight of the extra layers (main body plus add on sections).
* Having to hide the joints between modules and preventing them coming adrift.
* Uniformity loss in the finish (scribed stones) if you don't keep refering back to the separate completed modules.

At the end of the day it was horses for courses. I adjust the approach to suit what I'm building. Input from others really helped develop solutions on that particular building - it was like nothing I'd ever made before either in appearance or model structure.

 

[Pencarrow]

Chris, I suspect I have triggered your detailed notes. I am enjoying them and learning new ideas from them. I have bookmarked page 112 of your topic. I missed your question, busy day yesterday. All of this being inconsequential to everyone on WT but it helps me to say this . . .

I think two-way communication depends on timing as well as experience. Right now, I am not anywhere near making a 7 mm scale model building from scratch, but one day I will be. So at the moment I have nothing useful to photograph to contribute, and not even a drawing to post to say "I want to build one of these". I have made buildings in smaller scales, sometimes styrene and sometimes card, but my methods will not scale up well for larger models which need some suitable strength. So please keep the posts coming.

Well, when you do start your first building and think I could help in any way, please don't hesitate to shout up. I have been doing plasticard building demos at shows for a few years and will talk myself hoarse over a weekend answering questions

 

[Pencarrow]

Construction looks sound. There are no diagonals to deter twisting, are the beams to achieve the same thing?

regards, Graham

Gosh, this is going back a bit Graham! I can happily report very little twist in the finished boards. They have travelled up and down stairs, been chucked in cars and one was dropped with no damage.

 

[Pencarrow]

As a former architectural modelmaker I am naturally interested, but I have to be honest the strengthening confused me at first, I thought you were making a library. (Not actually joking) Then I realised it's sensible but must be a lot of work.

I'm currently building a large warehouse in my Dublingham thread from cardboard. It's showing signs of sagging and needs remedial work. My buildings built to full Scalescenes spec have double layer skins and as such show no signs of sagging. My warehouse has been done on the cheap and so needs attention.

I've never used limonene, but clearly it's the way to go. I guess your method lends itself to keeping everything lightweight. Please keep posting and let us know if the sagging is kept away.

I don't think the old WT joke of nothing behind the tender is still current.

Cheers
Tony

Good morning Tony, slowly working through the various questions from yesterday...

Interesting that you did architectural modelling as a job. Having town up on Airfix and Star Wars, when I was (much) younger I had a dream to be one of the people that made models for films. Obviously that never happened and instead I ended up being a Civil Engineer ("for civil engineer see boring" as the old Yellow Pages used to say).

In a way I'm glad the hobby never became a job, I think I would have hated seeing my work either blown up or ending up in a skip. On the plus side the civil engineering gave me an understanding of how structures work and how materials react to loads. I think that's a plus, but perhaps we're back to "see boring" again.

In my early years I grew up on Superquick card kits, and later made a few buildings for club layouts. In those days the club approach for any building of size was to build a ply carcass and then clad it with card and or plasticard finishes. I did make a set of cottages from a Downsplan from a card frame, with walls clad with plasticard and roof with card tiles.

In later years I have built buildings for many joint layout projects. These have ranged from small huts through to long industrial premises. I've also had to undertake remedial work to buildings by others to address splitting, warping and show damage.

Lessons have been learnt along the way. I know others have success with ply and MDF frames but my own experience has been that they are prone to warp, particularly if one face is clad with plastic and the damp works on just one side. I've also learned that heavy construction doesn't always equal strong and that each material type has pros and cons. The other big learning from many repairs is to think about access for future maintenance.

I'm always told when demonstrating at shows that plastic warps and isn't stable. I'd agree that it does if you let it, and if you either use far too much solvent or trap the vapour in an enclosed space. For me the beauty of using plasticard is the ease of cutting, the flexibility and the almost instant joins.

With regards to the 'bookcases', you're not the first to make that comment! The approach comes from learning that strength doesn't come from lots of layers (weight does) and laminating layers is a great way to start warping (got that t-shirt). Think of the perpendicular ribs more like H beams used in buildings, their strength comes from the 2 flanges being separated by a deep web.

Yes, it does take a bit of time to do, but I'm evolving methods to cut that down and am experimenting with spacings. The pros though are that it's easy to get in with the solvent, there's no vapour traps, it's light, and (if you clad the inside two) you end up with a scale thickness of wall.

Does it work and prevent warping. Well, time will tell, but there's buildings on Pencarrow that are 5 to 10 years old that are still stable and flat. There's also another building I got half way through applying the mesh of ribs and then left for 18 months. The ribbed bit stayed flat, the untreated section took a lot of time and effort to dewarp when I came back to the building.

I would say that this is an approach not the approach. Every building is different and one of the first things I do is to think through how I'm going to build it. Shape, size and the number/size of windows are big influences on the decision.

I hope that gives a bit of background.

 

[Pencarrow]

I’m fully in agreement with Rob.

My building experience is very much limited to MDF, a few kits and my loco shed, which was described in some detail on t’other channel, and my plasticard experience is centred around modifications to vehicles, and other small details.

so I look out for posts, read with interest, ask the odd question, and hit the like button to show I’m awake somewhere towards the rear of the classroom…

Morning Simon

One of the joys of a forum is that people bring different ideas and skills. I very much enjoy your threads as they show what's possible in laser cutting and more recently 3d printing. I have access to neither of these technologies but I am belatedly starting to embrace the idea of using a Silhouette cutter.

The main issue I have with all these new fangled technologies is that they all involve hours at the computer to achieve. I already spend 40+ hours a week using a computer for work and am always pleased not to touch one outside this time. I also find the hard cutting and forming very therapeutic.

I can however see strengths and benefits, especially where accuracy and repeatability are concerned. The thought of having to make 60+ windows for the current project has certainly driven me to get the Silhouette cutter out!

I think we all have a lot to share and learn from each other.

 

[Pencarrow]

Roof now formed and setting. Just waiting for the York Model Making self adhesive tiles to arrive. In the meantime, I'm going to do a bit more on the other end...

View attachment 180521

Well I lied... Started working on the middle bit instead. Tidied up with widow openings, added in ceilings and floors to the interiors (after a change or mind / missing the obvious).

Now I'm adding the brick bits around the window openings. Definitely a job for Limonene - gives adjustment time. I had however forgotten just how sticky it was. Stuff seems to get everywhere!



There's going to be some sanding down after the solvent had set. I do now generally sand all brickwork down a bit to flatten the mouldings and make the mortar course less deep.

 

[Pencarrow]

And yes, I am cutting embossed sheet into bits and sticking those bits back together...


Overall seems to take about 5mins to cut, place, gunk and align one side of an opening.



SEF do do a useful sheet of bits of brickwork but sadly the 2 half, 2 full repeat pattern often seen around window openings isn't on there.

 

[Dog Star]

Next lesson learned is that carving and shaping the plastic can need a fair amount of force at times and therefore the part needs either to be flat, or if a 3D shape, made robustly....

Time consuming process but it gives you a finish I've not yet found on any proprietary sheets. Being solid plastic it will also be a lot more robust than plaster, Das or foamboard material methods. I've also developed a second different method which I'll describe on another occasion. I hope the above is useful.

This post is a masterclass in marking out, surface preparation, painting and a healthy dose of digging and scratching. Who can fail to make a decent rubblestone wall after this lesson?

regards, Graham

 

[Dog Star]

Rails to hold the roof on have been fabricated from scrap etch and clamped in place:
View attachment 53273
Strips attached to the underside of the roof. The engage in the gaps inter body side rails...
View attachment 53293

And the roof is then slid forward locking it in place.
View attachment 53294

Roof firmly attached but removable.
View attachment 53295

Now there is an idea to be pinched (often).

regards, Graham

 

[Ressaldar]

Hi Chris,

that is true dedication, especially as the end result is so much better than just cutting the window opening out from a full sheet. Cracking stuff.

cheers

Mike

 

[Pencarrow]

Now there is an idea to be pinched (often).

regards, Graham

Pinch away Graham. I've also used it on brakevan roofs. Works really well.

 

[Dog Star]

Chris,

There are a number of photo links that do not work on web-page 6 of this topic, starting on 24th September 2016. Are you able to re-instate the photos?

thank you, Graham

 

[James Spooner]

I'm assuming from the nil response to this question that either:
1. I bored everyone to death before they reached the question or
2. Nobody else on the forum makes buildings or
3. There's a hesitancy or reluctance to engage with this thread

So thinking more about the above reasons...
1. Are the posts too long, detailed or dull? I do generally also use a lot of photos as they are the 'currency of the forum'.
2. WT can be somewhat stock centric. Nothing wrong with that but I'd like to think there are others on here that enjoy making buildings.
3. Perhaps I'm a scary person or what I'm doing is so far beyond other mortals that comment is not possible. On the first count I hope not, on the second I find that laughably unlikely.

There's discussion on a @mickoo thread about 'like' vs comment. Perhaps the lack of two-way conversation is the WT way? Whilst I fully agree that 'like' is preferable to one or two word responses clogging up a thread, it would be nice though to have some conversation. It's a bit dull talking to myself.

Chris

Sorry, I’ve just got around to reading this thread. I am interested (and possibly a little confused) about how you manage to get sagging into your roofs. I have recently built a coal shed for my layout and the original had a sag in the roof but I couldn’t work out how to do it so built mine without any sag. A complicating factor (for me at any rate) was the fact that the original had pantiles and the only model pantiles I am aware of in 4mm scale are the Wills sheets, which are quite thick and not very flexible. Any suggestions you have would be gratefully received!

Nigel

 

[Pencarrow]

Chris,

There are a number of photo links that do not work on web-page 6 of this topic, starting on 24th September 2016. Are you able to re-instate the photos?

thank you, Graham

I'll have a look Graham, I didn't knowingly post them as links, so it's a puzzle.

Edit: just had a look myself and there's no missing photos on page 6. Can someone else confirm if they are there or not please?

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I can see your photos on page 6.

The only link on page 6 is in post #117 pointing to a towards a web page of 1366 prototype photos.

 

[Pencarrow]

Chris

Sorry, I’ve just got around to reading this thread. I am interested (and possibly a little confused) about how you manage to get sagging into your roofs. I have recently built a coal shed for my layout and the original had a sag in the roof but I couldn’t work out how to do it so built mine without any sag. A complicating factor (for me at any rate) was the fact that the original had pantiles and the only model pantiles I am aware of in 4mm scale are the Wills sheets, which are quite thick and not very flexible. Any suggestions you have would be gratefully received!

Nigel

Hi Nigel,

It's actually harder building something a bit bent than something straight and true. The method for the wobbly version is in post numbers 741 and 761. They are linked below:

7mm - Pencarrow - Cornish BR(S)

Making a start on the second roof. The ridgeline is deliberately not straight as the weight of the roof has pushed the side wall out towards the yard and the joist timber over the doorway has been deflected down. Going to be a bit tricky cutting all the triangular shapes as no two will be the...

www.westernthunder.co.uk

7mm - Pencarrow - Cornish BR(S)

Anywho, I've been wide awake since 3am so I might as well post some roof progress. The width of the building now varies as the side wall and beam are displaced outwards. The gutter line on that side has also sunk. Dodgy builders! This will effect the position of the ridge line. But how much? I...

www.westernthunder.co.uk

Shout if it doesn't make sense or you need further explanation. Happy to help.