Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Chas Levin]

I was just about to bemoan the fact that 60061, my favourite A3, seems to be completely overlooked by lineside cameramen when bingo 2 at once! 60062 and 60063 seem to always get snapped, but poor old PP, never.
Thank you for making my day.
Bob

I sometimes feel that way about my two favourites, Sir Frederick Banbury and The White Knight, though Sir Fred does crop up on occasion...

 

[Martin Shaw]

Here you are Chas, just for you. Not an original one I hasten to add.

 

[Chas Levin]

What a great start to the morning: thank you Martin!

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Arun - I'd not considered the overhaul of the Standard 4 2-6-0s alongside the Ivatts but that makes perfect sense. The Standard 4s never looked as thoroughly disreputable as the Ivatts, though.

Chas - thanks for your comment. Tim's family are always delighted to hear that his photos are appreciated and enjoyed and I'll pass your kind message on to them.

Hi Heather. I think your compromise is the correct one. Whether I'll follow it religiously in future is up for conjecture....

Thanks for the picture of the Pullmans, Dave. What a cracking livery that was and it's good that we can continue to see original Pullman trains in the original livery inside and out.

Hello Bob. Well, I have a surprise for you which may make your week. There are at least four more shots of Pretty Polly to come in the upcoming months. And for you, Chas, Sir Fred has already appeared - see post #1575 and you can look forward to seeing The White Knight as Tim has an image of that loco too, yet to be published.

That's a good bit of work, Martin, and convinces me that the loco in question must be 60062 although it can only go down as a "probable" I guess.

A two photo diversion today before we return to the ECML.

Castle No 5039 Rhuddlan Castle at Paddington in April 1963, by now looking pretty disreputable. By now it was a Llanelli engine and had four further allocations before being withdrawn from Reading in June 1964. (SLS). It was broken up by Cohens at Morriston by the year end. (BR Database).



15XX pannier tank No 1504 at Paddington in April 1963. It was an Old Oak Common engine for all its short life being withdrawn a month after this photo was taken. (SLS). It went to T W Ward at Briton Ferry where it was scrapped by May 1964. (Rail UK)



Recorded as at Holloway Road and A1 60128 Bongrace on an unidentified Pullman train in April 1963. It had been a Doncaster engine since 1959 and was withdrawn in January 1965. (SLS). It went to Drapers of Hull where it was scrapped by the end of the following month. (Rail UK).




Brian

 

[Chas Levin]

Hello Brian, yes, I saw Sir Fred a while back and Potter's Bar is quite close to me so that was nice to see too.

I'll look forward to Tim's photo of The White Knight as well... thank you!

 

[Arun Sharma]

Sir Fred was one of my favourite A3s. Given that it was the only surviving ex-GNR Gresley pacific [albeit heavily modified on loading gauge conversion to LNER A1 and then {later} A3] it would have made sense to preserve that loco as a memorial to HNG.

 

[Chas Levin]

Sir Fred was one of my favourite A3s. Given that it was the only surviving ex-GNR Gresley pacific [albeit heavily modified on loading gauge conversion to LNER A1 and then {later} A3] it would have made sense to preserve that loco as a memorial to HNG.

Fully agree, but I think the urge to preserve hadn't really taken off in 1961 when Sir Fred was 'let go' and working locos were seen as ordinary machinery of little historical importance.
Had it not been for Alan Pegler, I doubt we'd have any Pacifics from that time at all...

 

[Roger Pound]

I sometimes feel that way about my two favourites, Sir Frederick Banbury and The White Knight, though Sir Fred does crop up on occasion...

I have great memories of Sir Fred when it was stationed at 38C (Leicester Central). As a lad I visited the shed regularly and saw all of the A3's then allocated to the former GC on shed at one time or another, not forgetting the famous 60103. All were regularly seen of the named express services on that line. The Master Cutler and The South Yorkshireman, before the LM 'takeover and the re-allocation of the A3's back on Eastern metals. The Master Cutler was also lost from Marylebone to become Kings Cross- Sheffield service. Fond memories of A3's drifting in to Leicester from the South on a warm summer's evening...........!

Roger.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the memories..... In fact, Chas, you are quite correct in that, if Alan Pegler hadn't stepped in Flying Scotsman would certainly have gone the way of all the other A3s. I remember a sense of disbelief when I heard that the loco - even then arguably the most famous engine in the world, notwithstanding Mallard - would be scrapped. The A4s actually did very well in the preservation stakes, though, and arguably at the expense of the A1s. It was a matter of luck that we have the Princess Coronations and, to a large extent, the Princesses too. I believe that we should be particularly grateful to Alan Pegler and his personal profile as he proved that steam loco preservation was possible in the same way that we should be grateful to the pioneers on the Bluebell who proved that railway preservation was possible too.

We've seen this loco previously, in post #1227 taken in the same location in May 1963. This one is in April. The commentary is now updated with the data from all available sources. Near Tim's home at Hornsey is this shot at Holloway Road in April 1963. It's A1 60145 St Mungo. In April 1963 it was a Copley Hill (Leeds) engine, migrating to York (North) in September, then Darlington in January 1966 before being withdrawn in March the same year. However, it was reinstated in April and went back to York (North) for a couple of months before final withdrawal in June. It went to Drapers in Hull for scrapping which had happened by the end of September. (SLS, Rail UK, BR Database, WHTS)



There's no identification for this B1 at Holloway Road in April 1963.



At Holloway Road is V2 60912 light engine in April 1963. This photo is really "on the cusp" as it was withdrawn from New England at the end of the month, going to Doncaster for disposal which was complete by the middle of May. (SLS and BR Database).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

With apologies for the five day hiatus caused by a bit of housekeeping on the details associated with the photo collection. However, we continue at Holloway Road for now, and soon a trip to the Cross.... I'm rather overdue in thanking those keeping a watch on this thread for your "Likes". My work on these photos will continue (I get pleasure from it every day) and it's gratifying to know that my loyal group of followers clearly agree that the effort is appreciated.

First is B1 61075 at Holloway Road in April 1963. It was based at Kings Cross until June 1963 when it moved to Mexborough, It was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It went to Hesslewood's at Atterclliffe where it was scrapped at the end of the year. (BR Database).



Here are two of A2 60513 Dante looking thoroughly disreputable and burned smokebox door light engine at Holloway Road in April 1963. It was based at New England in 1963 although withdrawn at the end of April so these photos must be two of the last when it was in service. (SLS). It went back to the place of it's birth, Doncaster, where it was despatched by the beginning of May. (BR Database).





Finally 9F 92041, light engine at Holloway Road, April 1963. It was a New England engine at the time, then moving to Colwick and Staveley (Barrow Hill) before ending up at Langwith Junction in January 1965 from where it was withdrawn at the end of August the same year. (SLS). It went to T W Ward at Beighton where it was scrapped in November. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen]

I always like to see a photos of Dante as although not relevant to the loco history Dante, the racehorse, was owned by the father of a City friend of mine , Eric Ohlson. His son and my pal was Brian Ohlson, a real city character of the old school, Harrow, The Guards and then a Money Broker, he passed away several years ago.

Tim

 

[Roger Pound]

Burnt smoke box door on an A2!
In my recollections of my trainspotting days, it occurs to me that my memories indicate that this was a far more prevalent sight on locomotives of the LNER (or BR[E] as they became) than on those of the LMS or London Midland Region types. I often wondered if it was something to do with the efficiency or otherwise of Doncaster designed smoke-box doors? No doubt there is someone who can enlighten me out there .

Fascinating pictures reminding me of days and sights I was fortunate enough actually experience. Thanks again, Brian.

Roger

 

[oldravendale]

Keep the reminiscences coming - they all help to build a picture of the times - which I remember as well Roger.

From Holloway Road to Kings Cross....

This is an unidentified A3 in the rain at Holloway Road in April 1963 - unless someone can work their identifying magic on it!



An unidentified A2 travelling light at Holloway Road in April 1963. Condition make me think it's probably a Gateshead or New England loco.



Three pictures here of A2 60500 Edward Thompson at Kings Cross in May 1963, probably taken from the York Road platform. It was withdrawn from New England just a month after this photo was taken. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works by the beginning of September. You'll note the Deltics in the loco yard in the background of the third shot and also the one of Owen Tudor and a Class 24 - I mean a BR Sulzer Type 2 in the background of the second photo so the writing was well and truly on the wall for steam at the Cross when these photos were taken and within a month a wholesale slaughter was fully in hand. This is how I remember Kings Cross and I've not revisited since the layout was changed,







Yet another A2, 60520 Owen Tudor at Kings Cross in May 1963. It was also a New England engine at this time and was withdrawn a month after the photo was taken. (SLS). It also went to Doncaster Works for disposal which was completed by the end of August



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
IMG 1680 has only the position of the smokebox numberplate to identify it, that still leaves several however as I have commented previously steam passenger workings at the southern end of the GN main line were fewer and fewer by the spring of 63 so really New England or Kings X. The loco has class 1 headlamps but the train is only 6 cars long so probably a semi fast from Grantham or Doncaster rather than further afield. Of the possibilities from my spreadsheet, those with the numberplate still in the original position but with Witte smoke deflectors and shedded south of York,
60044 Melton Kings X
60050 Persimmon New England
60056 Centenary Grantham
60065 Knight of the Thistle New England
60105 Victor Wild Grantham
60110 Robert the Devil Kings X

I think you can discount the Grantham engines which leaves a choice of four 44, 50, 65, 110. My gut feel is one of the New England pair but of course there are contenders from the North of England and possibly Scotland.
Martin

 

[Arun Sharma]

The anonymous A2/3 appears to have a two part name neither of which seem to be especially long. With the 'eye of faith' the last digit of the cab number looks like a '3' so perhaps 60523 Sun Castle. It was a New England engine from 23 Sep 62 to withdrawal in Jun 63.

 

[Dave Holt]

Martin.
Does the coal rail tender narrow it down at all?
Dave.

 

[John Duffy]

Brian
IMG 1680 has only the position of the smokebox numberplate to identify it, that still leaves several however as I have commented previously steam passenger workings at the southern end of the GN main line were fewer and fewer by the spring of 63 so really New England or Kings X. The loco has class 1 headlamps but the train is only 6 cars long so probably a semi fast from Grantham or Doncaster rather than further afield. Of the possibilities from my spreadsheet, those with the numberplate still in the original position but with Witte smoke deflectors and shedded south of York,
60044 Melton Kings X
60050 Persimmon New England
60056 Centenary Grantham
60065 Knight of the Thistle New England
60105 Victor Wild Grantham
60110 Robert the Devil Kings X

I think you can discount the Grantham engines which leaves a choice of four 44, 50, 65, 110. My gut feel is one of the New England pair but of course there are contenders from the North of England and possibly Scotland.
Martin

Does it not show the lower washout plug of a 107 boiler? Which from the list above leaves only 60050, fitted 10/59.

John

 

[robertm]

Looking at the same image, I don’t think the fireman would have been impressed with the quality of the coal he’d be shovelling!

 

[Martin Shaw]

Martin.
Does the coal rail tender narrow it down at all?
Dave.

Dave
Yes it does but not by much. I compiled a table of the approximately 50% of the class that had a GN coal rail tender which is posted in thread #1960 if your interested.

Does it not show the lower washout plug of a 107 boiler? Which from the list above leaves only 60050, fitted 10/59.

It does John and I'm grateful.

I don’t think the fireman would have been impressed with the quality of the coal he’d be shovelling!

The wide firebox of a Gresley boiler, A3 or A4 since they are basically the same, and I presume the Thompson and Peppercorn subsequent variants, are pretty tolerant of poor coal and it's quite surprising what they will successfully burn compared to a traditional narrow firebox. The 9Fs are the same although it does in all cases assume it's not all dust. The declining size and quality of coal post war was one of the factors in the decline of the steam loco, the other inevitably being a disinterested workforce who no longer were prepared to be all but slave labour for a pittance. Politicians didn't help much either.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for your work on this again, Martin, followed by Dave and John. I'll try to pick some bones out of the info.

Thanks too, Arun for your thoughts on the A2. I think I'll make Sun Castle a distinct "possible".

As for the coal situation, the quality or rather lack of it, is apparent on a lot of the images.

For today a mixed bag.

Here's two of Britannia 70039 Sir Christopher Wren at Kings Cross in May 1963. It lived at Immingham at the time of the photo but by the year end went to Carlisle Upperby ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor where it was withdrawn in September 1967. (SLS). It then went to J Mc Williams at Shettleston where it was scrapped by the end of January 1968. (BR Database).





This is an unidentified Black 5 at Willesden in May 1963.



Finally for today Mickey Mouse 2-6-0 46401 carrying a Willesden shed plate at Willesden Shed Yard in May 1963. Later the same month it moved to Buxton and was withdrawn from there in May 1966. (SLS). It went to Birds at Long Marston where it was scrapped by the end of September. (WHTS).

Brian