Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[mickoo]

The unidentified A2 at Holloway is probably an A1. A2's were not common on the southern section, but not really rare either, your odds are heavily stacked toward an A1 numerically, that aside, it looks like a double chimney to me and all the A2's with double chimneys had front end throttles and that box is missing.

A1 only had two sand fillers, A2 had three, the front one would be really obvious up near the drop in the footplate by the motion bracket, it's not definitive, but if it were there you'd see it.

 

[Arun Sharma]

The unidentified A2 at Holloway is probably an A1. A2's were not common on the southern section, but not really rare either, your odds are heavily stacked toward an A1 numerically, that aside, it looks like a double chimney to me and all the A2's with double chimneys had front end throttles and that box is missing.

A2s were not especially common South of Peterborough [apart from perhaps 'Happy Knight'] but A2/3s were more common and they didn't have external regulator rodding.

Not sure quite what's happened here - something adrift with the quote thing.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Something further on IMG1664. The appearance of a Flying Pig drew some comment and to confirm both Arun and my info I have come across a pic of 43089 on a King's Lynn to Peterborough class 2 service. The date of the pic isn't given but the loco cabside has large numbers which is slightly unusual. The caption writer has allocated the loco to King's Lynn between Nov 1957 and Nov 1960 which I have confirmed is correct so it rather suggests the pic is dated then especially as the loco went to March for a week and then Staveley. Its reappearance at Holloway Road some 3 years later is surprising.

 

[mickoo]

Not sure quite what's happened here - something adrift with the quote thing.

Oh buttocks, failed to see the cab sides were straight, Brian wrote A2 instead of A2/1, 2, 3 so I thought he knew what he was talking about, we shall have words in the bar at Kettering

Yeah it's not a Peppercorn A1 or A2, it's a Thompson A2/3, reach rod cover and footplate lubricators, confirm that.

# 520 is the only one I can find with the reach rod cover angled like that and deeper at the rear end, Brian has a photo in a later post that shows the odd cover 520 had.

 

[oldravendale]

Martin, Dave and John. I think between you you've probably narrowed down the field for that A3 in the rain to one possibility. That's a real achievement and thank you. How you've managed to see all that detail through the fog and general grot is remarkable.

Your comment on the quality of the coal is well made, Robert. Your further description of the way fireboxes and grates changed, at least to a degree, to take care of the situation is of interest, Martin, so thanks again. In this respect look at the coal in the tenders of some of the Irish locos. It really looks like little more than dust.

Brian wrote A2 instead of A2/1, 2, 3 so I thought he knew what he was talking about, we shall have words in the bar at Kettering

I can't remember ever being accused of that, Mick. I knew that there were sub groups within the class but it had never registered with me how important they could be in identification. Lesson learned - probably. But here I have an admission to make. One of the negs on this strip was separated out as it has to be rescanned for Newtons Rings. It happens to be the one next to the unidentified (at the time) A2/3. It's easily identified as 60520 and the pattern of the coal in the tender is identical to the coal in the "unknown" photo. My fumble herpolergies, Mick and I'll take my medicine as you suggest, in the bar at Kettering.

Finally, Martin, thanks for your further info about the Flying Pig. I'm pretty confident about the date - as I mentioned Tim has another photo of the same loco at Kings Cross but on another film entirely and it'd be quite a coincidence but admittedly not impossible if both were equally incorrect.

I'll get to bunging up some more pics in the next few days.

Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

I remember 46401 when it was new and allocated to Kettering (15B) as LMS 6401, along with the first five of the class starting with 6400 and in numerical sequence to 6404. They were regularly seen on Kettering-Leicester local turns in those days. We loco spotters considered them quite novel with the new post-war style of block letters and numerals, which disappeared when renumbering following nationalisation took place. 46401 spent a number of years at Kettering before moving away, I believe to the Western Region for some time. It duly returned to coming back to the Midland Region, ultimately to meet it's fate from Buxton, as you say.

Roger

 

[Martin Shaw]

Roger

For completeness sake, 6401's wanderings, Kentish Town 10/12/46, Sheffield Millhouses 18/1/47, Kettering (loan) 21/6/47, Kettering 18/10/47, Gloucester Barnwood 28/7/56, Oswestry 28/11/59, Willesden 30/3/63, Buxton 25/5/63, wdn w/e 7/5/66.

Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Roger and Martin, for the additional stuff about the Mickey Mouse. I have to admit that I had a soft spot for them.

We've seen this loco at Holloway Road in April and May 1963, most recently in post #1969 and before that in post #1227 but here it is at Harringay West in May 1963. It's A1 60145 St Mungo. In April 1963 it was a Copley Hill (Leeds) engine, migrating to York (North) in September, then Darlington in January 1966 before being withdrawn in March the same year. However, it was reinstated in April and went back to York (North) for a couple of months before final withdrawal in June. It went to Drapers in Hull for scrapping which had happened by the end of September. (SLS, Rail UK, BR Database, WHTS)



An unidentified A2 at Harringay West in May 1963. Probably 60523, Sun Castle.



Finally for today an A4. Harringay West again in May 1963 and the loco is not identified.



Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

Well we do know that the Harringay A1 is one of the Doncaster built ones by virtue of the prominent rivets on the tender.

 

[Dave Holt]

The unidentified loco is certainly not an A1. It's one of the Thompson A2/something's with rearwards shifted cylinder and short connecting rods.
Dave.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Dave has just pipped me , it is as he says a Thompson A2/3 and even allowing for the acute angles it's photographed at the large gap between the bogie rear wheel and the leading driving wheel with the cylinder between gives it away. Two other identification factors, the Thompson pacifics had an expansion link bracket that was more or less triangular whilst the Peppercorn version had a long tailed 9 shaped one and additionally the boiler handrail and the vacuum ejector exhaust pipe were much closer together on the Thompson engines compared to the Peppercorn ones.

The identity is slightly more difficult, by April 1963 there were only seven of the class still in traffic and three of them were long term allocations to sheds in Scotland from which they were withdrawn in 1965 and cut up by Motherwell Machinery. They were 512 "Steady Aim", 522 "Straight Deal", and 524 "Herringbone". I think they can be discounted. The remaining 4 were all New England engines having been used there as standby and local pass work, the pictured engine has a class 2 lamp. The nameplate appears to be a two words so it's unlikely to be 513 "Dante" which anyway was withdrawn on 27/4/63, 500 "Edward Thompson" was still around but the nameplate dosen't work for me which leaves 520 "Owen Tudor" and 523 "Sun Castle". We've had pics of 500 & 520 at the Cross already however intently peering at a blown up version of the pic suggests the last two digits on the cabside are 23 so I think it's 60523 Sun Castle. The last three NE engines were all withdrawn on 16/6/63 so the one pictured only had a month left so it's condition is typical of New England and to be expected at that date. I'll have a look at the A4 tomorrow, not much else on.
Regards
Martin

 

[Arun Sharma]

Whoops - sorry - confused picture of St Mungo with the wrong caption.

 

[Martin Shaw]

I think ultimately the identity of the A4 will remain something of an insolvable mystery but it can be narrowed down. The LNER built 35 streamlined pacifics, one of which was bomb damaged beyond repair. Of the 34 that came to BR in 1948, 8 were withdrawn prior to May 1963, 3,13,14,15,22,28,30,33. Oddly enough 5 went on the 29/12/62, it would seem that a major accountancy exercise at a very senior level removed quite a lot of steam locomotives including all the Stanier pacifics from the LMR and ScR. I suspect the reason behind this is buried in the archives at Kew if your sufficiently inclined, I'm not. This leaves 26 locomotives of which 9 had an A3 corridor tender, readily recognisable by the beading at the top of the sides and obviously not the one pictured, nos 4,7,10,11,24,25,29,32,34. The photographed loco appears to have a non corridor streamlined tender, the front edges of a corridor tender turn inwards which is not apparent but it is pretty grainy so I wouldn't be definitive. From the RCTS 6 locos had streamline corridor tenders. 9,12,17,21,27,31, which leaves 11 possible contenders and truthfully it could be anyone of them. Of those, 8 numbers 1,2,5,16,18,19,20,23 were allocated to Gateshead and 3 numbers 6,8,18 to Kings X, and bearing in mind that it was only a month before Top Shed closed and all Kings X A4s were transferred to New England, it is I think quite likely one of the Kings X trio. Two of them 6 and 18 were further allocated to Scotland for the 3 hour Glasgow - Aberdeen expresses which leaves 60008 Dwight D. Eisenhower as the possibility, others pics show it with the "right" tender and it was withdrawn in July 63 so its's condition for an engine a few weeks off withdrawal isn't wholly surprising. There is a lot of surmise on my part, I am open to correction.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dave. I clearly really don't have my head around the differences between the A1s and A2s, especially not the A2 variants and that's after considerable training by you, Martin and Mickoo. I'll keep trying to get the descriptions correct... The post has been edited accordingly, and thank you.

Thank you too, Martin, for your work on that photo and the A4. Despite the uncertainties the details will be added to the files as they can be the background and sometimes lead to confirmatory info.

Speaking of confirmatory info I've just been able to marry some descriptions from Tim's notes to an earlier series of photos. In particular the loco I described as 60065 in post #1429 is actually 60063. The date for the whole series of photos at Wood Green and Kings Cross is now confirmed as 16th February 1961 rather than just Winter 1961. That just about covers posts #1429 to #1437. Then there are the preceding Irish photos and although the info on these remains sketchy it rather puts them as suggested in the accompanying description at earlier in the same year. That's post #1423 for reference.

Correcting the files for these has taken up a good deal of today, so no new pictures but in my normal desultory fashion they will follow in due course.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

The source of much of my raw data, subject to updating, ie BR Database, seems to have disappeared. Can anyone else get entry to it at the moment? It'll be a huge shame if it's gone - it provides a really useful first stop for getting background data.

Brian

 

[adrian]

The source of much of my raw data, subject to updating, ie BR Database, seems to have disappeared. Can anyone else get entry to it at the moment? It'll be a huge shame if it's gone - it provides a really useful first stop for getting background data.

Brian

Unfortunately it appears to be offline for all of us. Isitup etc all report it being offline, wayback machine will return static pages but any database searches won't work.

Hopefully it's a temporary hosting problem.

 

[oldravendale]

Hmm. BR Database isn't back which makes me concerned for it's future. I really hope it's just a temporary blip.

As far as pictures are concerned there are plenty more to come, but today I've spent some of the time looking through some of Tim's thousands of slides. There are some cracking colour shots of steam in the '60s, although not very many compared with the black and whites but there are quite a few of green diesels and blue diesels and electrics as well as a few in Germany and France. Quite a lot of London buses and a few provincials as well as a lot of preserved steam. They are all mixed with the family and holiday photos which I'll separate out as I scan them.

I don't really know why I'm thinking about these already. We are less than half way through the black and white shots.....

Brian

 

[Dog Star]

We are less than half way through the black and white shots.....

So as this is page 100... we have about another 100 pages of delight and education to come!!!!!!

Or, as this topic started in October 2020 then we shall be kept entertained until at least Christmas 2024.


thank you, Graham

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Graham. There really is no shortage of material to come and I'll endeavour to keep this thread alive for as long as there's interest. Thanks for your comments and continuing enthusiasm.

For now, sadly, there remains no BR Database as a reference point. I'll use the available sources, Rail UK and WHTS but for the most part these only provide first and final shed, withdrawal and scrapping dates and location of scrapyard so not the full picture. I also have a few Locoshed Books and I guess I'll lean on those pretty heavily. I'll be more happy than ever to receive further and better particulars if anyone has them available.

A real mixed bag today with a couple of super photos of an A3.

60062 Minoru at Kings Cross in May 63. We've seen it previously at Kings Cross in February 1961 and Holloway Road in May 1963. It was a New England engine which went to Grantham and Doncaster before returning to New England from where it was withdrawn in December 1964. The trough deflectors were fitted 5th June 1961. (SLS). It then went to King & Sons at Norwich where it was scrapped by the end of February 1965. (Rail UK).



In my opinion this is an historically important picture - there are a couple more to come later. The suburban platform demolition of the old Euston Terminal Building in May 1963.



Finally Castle 5076 Gladiator carrying confirmation with the 81A shedplate that it's owned by the shed at which it's been photographed, Old Oak Common in May 1963. The Locoshed book for May/Jun 1964 shows that it was moved to Southall by then and withdrawal followed at the end of September 1964 when it went to R S Birds/Hayes at Bridgend where it was scrapped by the end of the year. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

60062 Minoru at Kings Cross in May 63

I assume it is in the KX suburban platform.