Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
Loving the shiny row of Ford Anglia 105s in the background. I would guess a delivery to local dealer, or waiting to be collected for shipping by rail further north.
Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
I believe it was a reasonably well known fact that the cleanliness of Gateshead allocated locomotives left much to be desired - perhaps that pertained to those at Darlington too, despite the works being there? I do recall from my train-spotting days in the late nineteen- forties/early fifties one could see the difference although standards did fall generally later as steam slowly disappeared.
Roger
Roger
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
Lemberg was photographed intact at Dairycoates by Brian Egan on 17 Feb 1965. The photo, together with an ammended date of scapping at Draper's yard of 29 March 65, is in Egan and Scotney's book "BR Locomotives cut up by Drapers of Hull".
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
I'd not noticed those Ford Anglias, Heather. That's worth a mention in the associated notes.
You are absolutely correct about the cleanliness of locos from Gateshead, Roger. We could always tell a Gateshead engine when it arrived at the Cross. However, as you noted Lemberg was not a Gateshead engine at the time. However, by 1963 the writing was on the wall for steam so the generally poor cleanliness may be associated with that. It appears that Kings Cross remained proud of their pacifics, though, until they were transferred away.
Thank you for checking my homework, Arun. Appropriate amendment will be made.
You are absolutely correct about the cleanliness of locos from Gateshead, Roger. We could always tell a Gateshead engine when it arrived at the Cross. However, as you noted Lemberg was not a Gateshead engine at the time. However, by 1963 the writing was on the wall for steam so the generally poor cleanliness may be associated with that. It appears that Kings Cross remained proud of their pacifics, though, until they were transferred away.
Thank you for checking my homework, Arun. Appropriate amendment will be made.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Apologies, Heather, I failed to pick up your comment here. Yes, you and I know it's a BR Sulzer Type 2 but we're probably in a minority of two - or perhaps three
. As for the humdrum and routine you are so right. It's those details which make these photos such a mine of information.Brian
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
True, but that’s because no-one uses the correct nomenclature any more. History is being rewritten, and I’m not a fan. I admit it’s not as easy to differentiate between the early Derby Sulzers and the rebuilds and later builds, or being able to tell how many horsepower or which electrical system was fitted - all of which is helped by using the TOPS definitions with the myriad sub-classes - but at the time Tim released the shutter it was a BR Derby Sulzer Bo-Bo Type 2.Yes, you and I know it's a BR Sulzer Type 2 but we're probably in a minority of two - or perhaps three
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Continuing the Holloway Road theme.
A3 No 60063 Isinglass at Holloway Road on 27 March 1963. It received trough deflectors in August 1961. It was a Kings Cross engine at the time, moving away in June and ending up at New England in November where it was withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It then went to King's at Norwich where it was scrapped by the end of August 1964.
Also at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963 is this unexpected and filthy Ivatt Flying Pig. I, personally, never saw one of these at Kings Cross or on the ECML but Tim has a shot of 43089 at Kings Cross in March 1963 which is yet to be published. This may well be the same engine. 43089 was allocated to New England between 5th August 1961 until 4th July 1964 when it went to Stavely (Barrow Hill). I have no knowledge of any others of this class allocated to New England or elsewhere in the area.
Another loco I can't positively identify is this A3 at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963 with those lurking Ford Anglia 105s.
Brian
A3 No 60063 Isinglass at Holloway Road on 27 March 1963. It received trough deflectors in August 1961. It was a Kings Cross engine at the time, moving away in June and ending up at New England in November where it was withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It then went to King's at Norwich where it was scrapped by the end of August 1964.
Also at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963 is this unexpected and filthy Ivatt Flying Pig. I, personally, never saw one of these at Kings Cross or on the ECML but Tim has a shot of 43089 at Kings Cross in March 1963 which is yet to be published. This may well be the same engine. 43089 was allocated to New England between 5th August 1961 until 4th July 1964 when it went to Stavely (Barrow Hill). I have no knowledge of any others of this class allocated to New England or elsewhere in the area.
Another loco I can't positively identify is this A3 at Holloway Road on 27th March 1963 with those lurking Ford Anglia 105s.
Brian
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
Brian
The Ivatt 4 is as you suggest unlikely so I had a look. Quite a few on the Doncaster built ones went new to New England around 1950, as far as I can see 43058 - 43069, and most of them lasted 5 or 6 years before going elsewhere. They were I think the LM regions contribution to the workings of the M&GN, replacing some of the decrepit stuff prior to then. I have also found reference to 43080 - 43089 there ex new but rarely staying very long. 43089's appearance at New England again in the early 60's is odd, I agree I can't find any instance of another at the southern end of the GN at that time. In the photo it has ECS lights and is pulling a Pullman train with some Metro Camm cars behind the brake vehicle. I have providentially just acquired this,
which suggests it might be the stock to form the Yorkshire Pullman. Given this is the last year of steam working south of York I think that whilst the 4MT is officially allocated to New England it was probably on loan to Kings Cross to make up for a lack of N2s. It did indeed go on to Barrow Hill and then Langwith on 3/10/65 for 6 weeks before withdrawal.
As a matter of interest what is the structure to the right hand side behind the tender?
Regards
Martin
The Ivatt 4 is as you suggest unlikely so I had a look. Quite a few on the Doncaster built ones went new to New England around 1950, as far as I can see 43058 - 43069, and most of them lasted 5 or 6 years before going elsewhere. They were I think the LM regions contribution to the workings of the M&GN, replacing some of the decrepit stuff prior to then. I have also found reference to 43080 - 43089 there ex new but rarely staying very long. 43089's appearance at New England again in the early 60's is odd, I agree I can't find any instance of another at the southern end of the GN at that time. In the photo it has ECS lights and is pulling a Pullman train with some Metro Camm cars behind the brake vehicle. I have providentially just acquired this,
which suggests it might be the stock to form the Yorkshire Pullman. Given this is the last year of steam working south of York I think that whilst the 4MT is officially allocated to New England it was probably on loan to Kings Cross to make up for a lack of N2s. It did indeed go on to Barrow Hill and then Langwith on 3/10/65 for 6 weeks before withdrawal.
As a matter of interest what is the structure to the right hand side behind the tender?
Regards
Martin
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
The Flying Pig may well have been an ex-M&GN one as it has the staff pick up apparatus visible on it's tender fwd. nearside. I have a MoK kit of one of these to build as 43110 at some point.
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
Arun
It had spells at Melton Constable and King's Lynn so definitely ex M&GN.
Rob
Thanks
It had spells at Melton Constable and King's Lynn so definitely ex M&GN.
Rob
Thanks
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Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
Regarding the type two - count me in, so a minority of three or fourApologies, Heather, I failed to pick up your comment here. Yes, you and I know it's a BR Sulzer Type 2 but we're probably in a minority of two - or perhaps three
Brian
! I formed a real liking for this class following their introduction as a 'Type 2', as they steadily infiltrated the Midlands where I worked at the time of Tim's photographs. I do have some 6"x4" photographs - black and white prints - which unfortunately I am at a loss to produce in a reasonable fashion for the Gallery folder.Roger
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
The A3 required a bit more digging, well it was either this or something domestic. Obviously a double chimney which they all had by this time and Witte smoke deflectors which eliminates 24 of the 78, there were 79 but Mr Thompson had rebuilt Great Northern. The loco is towing either a New Type or Streamlined non-corridor tender which further eliminates another 37, all of those with a GN coal rail tender, which leaves 17 possibilities. Of those two, had been withdrawn by the end of 1962, so thus 15 contenders. The name plate is unclear but I'm inclined to two words, so all the single word names could likely be dismissed which effectively leaves five locomotives.
60046 Diamond Jubilee New England
60051 Blink Bonny Heaton
60077 The White Knight Ardsley
60091 Captain Cuttle Heaton
60103 Flying Scotsman Kings X
I'm inclined to dismiss Flying Scotsman purely because the pictured loco is in a disgraceful state and even at the end Top Shed did keep it's engines reasonably, it could reasonably be any of the others although Heaton wasn't terrible and I suspect Ardsley and New England were just before withdrawal allocations we have discussed previously.
There is a major clue in the position of the smokebox numberplate. When BR fitted these they were above the handrail, when the top lamp iron was lowered the numberplate had to be done as well and it was fitted on the door hinge strap. I have looked at all my BR era pictures and the numberplate was moved on the first and last of the list above. They were also two of the three locos with streamlined non corridor tenders at that date, the other being Trigo, a Neville Hill engine which can be discounted as referenced above. However on balance I think it is 60046 Diamond Jubilee. That's nicely wasted an afternoon, nearly time for tea.
Martin
60046 Diamond Jubilee New England
60051 Blink Bonny Heaton
60077 The White Knight Ardsley
60091 Captain Cuttle Heaton
60103 Flying Scotsman Kings X
I'm inclined to dismiss Flying Scotsman purely because the pictured loco is in a disgraceful state and even at the end Top Shed did keep it's engines reasonably, it could reasonably be any of the others although Heaton wasn't terrible and I suspect Ardsley and New England were just before withdrawal allocations we have discussed previously.
There is a major clue in the position of the smokebox numberplate. When BR fitted these they were above the handrail, when the top lamp iron was lowered the numberplate had to be done as well and it was fitted on the door hinge strap. I have looked at all my BR era pictures and the numberplate was moved on the first and last of the list above. They were also two of the three locos with streamlined non corridor tenders at that date, the other being Trigo, a Neville Hill engine which can be discounted as referenced above. However on balance I think it is 60046 Diamond Jubilee. That's nicely wasted an afternoon, nearly time for tea.
Martin
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you, Martin, for your info about the Pullman stock and the Ivatt 4MT. Although Kings Cross does not appear on the allocations for 43089 your hypothesis seems quite likely. The substantial wooden structure is, as proposed by Rob (thanks Rob) cooling towers but I don't know the factory to which they were attached. The Kodak factory in Harrow had similar.
It makes sense, Arun, that 43089 was ex M & GN. (Thanks for your confirmation, Rob). In fact I saw a number of the ex M & GN and other Ivatts at Eastleigh undergoing assessment and repair/rebuild in 1965, including 43106 which is now on the SVR. They were, without exception, in appalling condition. It appears that Eastleigh may well have become a repair centre for the class.
I'll add your name, Roger, to the list of those who like their locos described properly. In fact, though, I have to admit that there is more than a little sense in the TOPS identifications as it's easy to identify sub classes. The LNER did similar with their steam locos. The Southern notably didn't - not only do we have two classes, the West Countries and Battle of Britains, which are the same, but the class included the rebuilds which were, pretty much, new engines. Then there were the many variations within the class in their original condition.
Martin - I can only thank you for your research in endeavouring to give an ID to that A3. There are a few more to come..... A wasted afternoon - I think not!
Staying on the ECML
A1 60131 Osprey at Holloway Road in April 1963. It was an Ardsley engine at the time, moving to Neville Hill in August and being withdrawn from there at the beginning of October 1965. (SLS). It went to TW Ward at Killamarsh for disposal which was complete at the end of November 1965. (Rail UK).
Another here for Martin.
An unidentified and filthy A3 with coal rail tender on a van train at Holloway Road in April 1963.
Finally two of A3 60061 Pretty Polly at Holloway Road in April 1963. It was a Kings Cross engine which accounts for its comparative cleanliness but moved to Grantham in June and was withdrawn in September. It had received trough deflectors in February 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in October at Doncaster Works. The Railway Observer report it as being in the works yard on 6th October 1963.
Brian
It makes sense, Arun, that 43089 was ex M & GN. (Thanks for your confirmation, Rob). In fact I saw a number of the ex M & GN and other Ivatts at Eastleigh undergoing assessment and repair/rebuild in 1965, including 43106 which is now on the SVR. They were, without exception, in appalling condition. It appears that Eastleigh may well have become a repair centre for the class.
I'll add your name, Roger, to the list of those who like their locos described properly.
In fact, though, I have to admit that there is more than a little sense in the TOPS identifications as it's easy to identify sub classes. The LNER did similar with their steam locos. The Southern notably didn't - not only do we have two classes, the West Countries and Battle of Britains, which are the same, but the class included the rebuilds which were, pretty much, new engines. Then there were the many variations within the class in their original condition.Martin - I can only thank you for your research in endeavouring to give an ID to that A3. There are a few more to come..... A wasted afternoon - I think not!
Staying on the ECML
A1 60131 Osprey at Holloway Road in April 1963. It was an Ardsley engine at the time, moving to Neville Hill in August and being withdrawn from there at the beginning of October 1965. (SLS). It went to TW Ward at Killamarsh for disposal which was complete at the end of November 1965. (Rail UK).
Another here for Martin.
An unidentified and filthy A3 with coal rail tender on a van train at Holloway Road in April 1963.Finally two of A3 60061 Pretty Polly at Holloway Road in April 1963. It was a Kings Cross engine which accounts for its comparative cleanliness but moved to Grantham in June and was withdrawn in September. It had received trough deflectors in February 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in October at Doncaster Works. The Railway Observer report it as being in the works yard on 6th October 1963.
Brian
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
It would make sense for the Ivatt 4MTs to be overhauled at Eastleigh as mechanically they were identical to the Standard 76xxx locos - of which 40odd were on the Southern in 1964.
Chas Levin
Western Thunderer
Hello Brian, thank you for posting all these wonderful photos (I've been reading my way through from the start) and for putting so much time and effort into restoring the prints. It's a terrific resource and a very enjoyable read.
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
I can’t disagree, but…
How about a compromise? Label the loco as it would have been historically, but include the later TOPS identity in parentheses. So "BR Derby Sulzer Bo-Bo Type 2 (TOPS Class 24)". That way it’s labelled correctly on both counts, and people might learn something as well.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
This Pullman stock was captured by my dad in Harrogate during1960/2 on the Harrogate Sunday Pullman.
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
Bit of a challenge there Brian. The pictured engine apart from the GN tender and German smoke deflectors is in a deplorable state and being seen in the London area rather points to a New England loco. That it's being used for ECS suggests it's probably not up to much anyway.
I have prepared a spreadsheet of the 37 GN tender A3s from which I have identified the ScR ones in light blue and the former NER in orange. I don't think it's one of those, which leaves 16 at either Grantham/New England/Kings X sheds. Top shed closed 2 months later but there are six which it could theoretically be. There are also 5 New England engines which would certainly fit the filth criteria. Then something caught my eye in the original pic, the vacuum exhaust pipe has a distinct set in it, rather more than a sag, and by a stroke of fortune in another book a picture of an A3 standing at Belle Isle in exactly the same condition and with the afore mentioned sagging pipe. This was, with rather too much luck, 60062 Minoru which happened to be a New England engine at the time. I have subsequently found other pics online that rather confirm this however whilst there is a niggling doubt, that is my suggestion.
Regards
Martin
I have prepared a spreadsheet of the 37 GN tender A3s from which I have identified the ScR ones in light blue and the former NER in orange. I don't think it's one of those, which leaves 16 at either Grantham/New England/Kings X sheds. Top shed closed 2 months later but there are six which it could theoretically be. There are also 5 New England engines which would certainly fit the filth criteria. Then something caught my eye in the original pic, the vacuum exhaust pipe has a distinct set in it, rather more than a sag, and by a stroke of fortune in another book a picture of an A3 standing at Belle Isle in exactly the same condition and with the afore mentioned sagging pipe. This was, with rather too much luck, 60062 Minoru which happened to be a New England engine at the time. I have subsequently found other pics online that rather confirm this however whilst there is a niggling doubt, that is my suggestion.
Regards
Martin