Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Phil. So the arrival of The Blue Circle dates a large number of these pictures - in fact probably most other than the photos we have of the Scottish Belle in September 1963 although circumstantially I suggest that those showing a really significant crowd should probably be associated with the special train. And with your comments and Rob's (thanks Rob) the possibility of 2650 being on a track lifting train seems entirely possible.

We're coming towards the end of the Bluebell photos now but first a couple of Tim's car before I'd met him. I think this is a Morris 8 but I'm sure there'll be others with better knowledge than I. By the time I knew Tim he'd graduated to an Austin A40 which I remember because the boot lid had almost rusted out.....






Two of Stepney again, with the Blue Belle headboard. Probably 1964. These are interesting because of the coaching stock. To my knowledge the Bluebell has never owned a coach from set 212 however it may be from the time when LT had the Chesham set back for a centenary or somesuch and persuaded or paid BR to loan the Bluebell a SR set.





Birch Grove at the rear of a train. The headcode discs are the give away. The coach is S1098S a SECR 10 compartment 100 seater built in 1922 as steam stock but possibly intended to be a trailer car in an EMU upon extension of the SR electrification. Earlier vehicles of this type had vertical matchboard sides, this one was a swinger latterly for Seaton and Lymington branch services.



Horsted Keynes with 473 and a train comprising the Chesham set and the LNWR Observation car. This latter vehicle must be one of the highest mileage coaches in preservation history being on virtually every train in the first 20 years of the Bluebell and still in regular use today.



Sheffield Park, 473 was repainted into this livery in 1963, the Dukedog (in the background) restored to GWR green in 1965, pick a day. The coaches are 6575S a Maunsell brake composite and either S971S or S1098S both SECR 100 seaters, think of a 4SUB but worse.



Stepney at the rear of the rain below having arrived from Sheffield Park. This is indicated by the tail lamp over the near buffer, the route discs being stored on the (front) lamp iron.




Sheffield Park, Stepney and train are coming from the pump house siding into the up platform to form a train to Horsted Keynes. 1964.


Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

Brian,

Definitely a Morris 8 - I had a very similar one - my very first car. I bought it whilst I was in the RAF for the princely sum of £70. It served me well for some years before the scrap yard beckoned - the dreaded rust had eaten in to the chassis making it unsafe.

Roger.

 

[Arun Sharma]

Regarding dating the pictures at Horsted Keynes, I seem to remember that in the early days of the Bluebell Railway, there were still platforms with conductor rails still present. They may even have still carried current! I

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for the confirmation, Roger.

Arun - you are quite correct about the conductor rails, for the line to Ardingly. In fact they can easily be seen in the first tranche of photos.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

In this period the electrified branch from Haywards Heath via Ardingly to Horsted Keynes was double track. It was later reduced to single line working to allow the second track to be used as a long storage siding for the then new standard BR 4-CIG and 4-BIG and Kent Coast units pending introduction to service.

 

[Martin Shaw]

I'm going to point out an error or two that's crept into Dave's post. The single line working from Ardingly to Horsted Keynes was intoduced in January 1959, the former down line becoming a long siding accessed at both end for storage of EMUs, CEPs and BEPs rather than CIGs and BIGs that were a bit later, for the Kent Coast Electrification. The daily operation involved lifting a 12 car set out at HK, taking it for a spin round Sussex and putting it back in at Ardingly. Meanwhile another driver had moved everything else up 12 cars. After the electrification it was used for the storage of withdrawn steam stock pending cutting up.

Working backwards the last pic is at Sheffield Park, Stepney and train are coming from the pump house siding into the up platform to form a train to Horsted Keynes.

The next two pics show Stepney now at the rear of the rain having arrived from SP. This is indicated by the tail lamp over the near buffer, the route discs being stored on the (front) lamp iron.

Next back at Sheffield Park, 473 was repainted into this livery in 1963, the Dukedog restored to GWR green in 1965, pick a day. The coaches are 6575S a Maunsell brake composite and either S971S or S1098S both SECR 100 seaters, think of a 4SUB but worse. I must get extra points for knowing coach numbers.

Horsted Keynes with 473 and a train comprising the Chesham set and the LNWR Observation car. This latter vehicle must be one of the highest mileage coaches in preservation history being on virtually every train in the first 20 years of the Bluebell and still in regular use today.

Next Birch Grove isn't heading away but at the rear of a train. The headcode discs are the give away. The coach is S1098S a SECR 10 compartment 100 seater built in 1922 as steam stock but possibly intended to be a trailer car in an EMU upon extension of the SR electrification. Earlier vehicles of this type had vertical matchboard sides, this one was a swinger latterly for Seaton and Lymington branch services.

The first two pictures are interesting because of the coaching stock. To my knowledge the Blubell has never owned a coach from set 212 however it may be from the time when LT had the Chesham set back for a centenary or somesuch and persuaded or paid BR to loan the Bluebell a SR set. I should have some info somewhere on this.

The Morris 8 could be on the Godstone by-pass, it vaguely rings a 50 year old bell, or a million other places I suppose.

The electric service from Seaford to Horsted Keynes finished in Oct 63 and by a year later the Bluebell Railway was isolated from the BR network. Top and tailed Bluebell trains ran to the end of 64. 2650 could possibly have been on track lifting duties but a 4 wheel bolster wagon wouldn't be my first choice. Most of the line was lifted northwards to East Grinstead so the scrap could be railed away.

Finally the gentleman on the footplate of Blue Circle is the late David Wallis who also owned an Aveling steam roller that was parked at Horsted Keynes for many years. He worked for BR SR CCE gauging section and was something of an expert on Brighton signalling. His father was Edwin Wallis an LBSCR/SR signal lineman who took a collection of stunning photos of SR signalling in the 30s, well worth seeking out. A good friend more than missed. This has rather brought back some memories, enough from me.

Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Thanks for the corrections Martin. My notes were from memory as I currently don't have access to my copy of GT Moody's Southern Electric 1909-1979 published by Ian Allan.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Yorkie Dave (and welcome back) and particularly to Martin for correcting the captions, most of which I have to admit to making up myself. Regrettably Tim dismissed all these simply as "Bluebell". I guess at the time he believed these would never have any historical value - not to say that many of his images were properly titled. I will spend some time correcting the captions to each of the photos by way of the Edit key before committing the descriptions to the final file.

Today more of the same but with a little frisson of excitement (perhaps) for some photos on the S & C in what amounts to a little jumble of varying and unconnected images. I suspect these were not immediately identifiable by Tim who stuck them all in the same folder for later confirmation which sadly never happened. Having completed these we'll be back on the ECML.

Birch Grove at Horsted Keynes - almost certainly the same train as the sixth image in the previous post and probably 1964.



The Adams Radial which appears in this set of photos only once, but it's a nice portrait and probably 1964. I must admit to having been delighted when I first saw this engine on the Bluebell having missed the Radials by a matter of months on the Lyme Regis branch.



Finally for this set at least and probably appropriately, Bluebell itself with The Blue Circle behind next to the GWR tender and a Terrier in front.



Now to the S & C and probably Dent (confirmation required) and a series of photos of 46229 on the Cumbrian Mountain Pullman in 1982, then a couple of Dent Station and its environs including the Ribblehead Viaduct.













Finally and way out of sequence an unidentified Grid class 56 in the Worksop area, probably 1982. This fits in with the sequence seen in posts #1440 and 1441 way back on page 72.



Brian
.

 

[chigley]

thanks for all those pictures of the bluebell Brian

Ken

 

[mickoo]

Finally and way out of sequence an unidentified Grid class 56 in the Worksop area, probably 1982. This fits in with the sequence seen in posts #1440 and 1441 way back on page 72.

View attachment 178823

Brian
.

You're limited to a small batch between 033 and 055. Shame you can't enlarge or make the number a bit clearer.

 

[76043]

I don't have my Southern coaches books to hand, but a search online reveals set 212 may have been a 9 coach Maunsell set.

Great to see early shots of the Bluebell.
Tony

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Ken and Tony for your kind comments - also for the extras about set 212, Tony.

Thanks to you too, Mick, for the info about which series the 56 comes from. All grist to the information mill.

As promised East Coast Main Line now.

This loco has appeared three times previously, in posts #1429. #1566 and #1763 and each of those was dated before this pair. Two shots here of A3 60065 Knight of Thistle at Holloway Road in April 1963 with trough deflectors which it had carried since November 1961. It became a New England engine from June 1962 from where it was withdrawn in June 1964 going to A Kings and Sons of Norwich where it was scrapped in August the same year. (SLS & RailUK).





A pair of pictures of A4 60034 Lord Farringdon at Holloway Road in April 1963. At the time it remained a Kings Cross engine although it moved to New England from June. It was one of the fortunates that then went up to Scotland to work the three hour Aberdeen - Glasgow trains and was withdrawn in August 1966 from Aberdeen Ferryhill. (SLS). It went to Hughes Bolckows (try saying that a few times quickly after a couple of pints), Battleship Wharf, North Blyth where it was scrapped in January 1967. (Rail UK). Note the dreaded diseisel in the second picture, probably a class 24.





For a bit of variety here's a V2, 60925 which was a York engine for it's entire life, being withdrawn from there in May 1964. (WHTS and BR Database). For some reason it went to Swindon Works for disposal and was scrapped by the end of August 1964. (Rail UK and BR Database). The SLS record it at Swindon on 20th September 1964 though, with several others of the class so the date of it's eventual demise remains a bit uncertain. According to WHTS the loco was dispatched from York on 7th September 1964, and then recording details from the Railway Observer it was seen at Swindon being cut up in C Shop on 27th September 1964 so the suggested date of August 1964 seems a bit premature.



Finally, by way of "something entirely different" and for which there is no explanation by Tim is this photo of what I believe to be a BEA Vickers Vanguard at Heathrow in May 1963. That may well be a Viscount on the right.


Brian

 

[Deano747]

Thank you Ken and Tony for your kind comments - also for the extras about set 212, Tony.

Thanks to you too, Mick, for the info about which series the 56 comes from. All grist to the information mill.

As promised East Coast Main Line now.

This loco has appeared three times previously, in posts #1429. #1566 and #1763 and each of those was dated before this pair. Two shots here of A3 60065 Knight of Thistle at Holloway Road in April 1963 with trough deflectors which it had carried since November 1961. It became a New England engine from June 1962 from where it was withdrawn in June 1964 going to A Kings and Sons of Norwich where it was scrapped in August the same year. (SLS & RailUK).

View attachment 179016

View attachment 179017

A pair of pictures of A4 60034 Lord Farringdon at Holloway Road in April 1963. At the time it remained a Kings Cross engine although it moved to New England from June. It was one of the fortunates that then went up to Scotland to work the three hour Aberdeen - Glasgow trains and was withdrawn in August 1966 from Aberdeen Ferryhill. (SLS). It went to Hughes Bolckows (try saying that a few times quickly after a couple of pints), Battleship Wharf, North Blyth where it was scrapped in January 1967. (Rail UK). Note the dreaded diseisel in the second picture, probably a class 24.

View attachment 179018

View attachment 179019

For a bit of variety here's a V2, 60925 which was a York engine for it's entire life, being withdrawn from there in May 1964. (WHTS and BR Database). For some reason it went to Swindon Works for disposal and was scrapped by the end of August 1964. (Rail UK and BR Database). The SLS record it at Swindon on 20th September 1964 though, with several others of the class so the date of it's eventual demise remains a bit uncertain. According to WHTS the loco was dispatched from York on 7th September 1964, and then recording details from the Railway Observer it was seen at Swindon being cut up in C Shop on 27th September 1964 so the suggested date of August 1964 seems a bit premature.

View attachment 179020

Finally, by way of "something entirely different" and for which there is no explanation by Tim is this photo of what I believe to be a BEA Vickers Vanguard at Heathrow in May 1963. That may well be a Viscount on the right.

View attachment 179021
Brian

I confirm it is a Vanguard and 90% sure it's a Viscount on the right.

Regards, Rob.

 

[simond]

“It went to Hughes Bolckows (try saying that a few times quickly after a couple of pints)”

I‘ve not had a half yet, and I had trouble reading it…

 

[76043]

The second picture of Lord Farringdon is also interesting because the bogies under the MK1 are clearly experimental. Possibly a Wegmann bogie? It looks like CK in the first picture?

https://hmrs.org.uk/aen718-wegmann-bogie-on-c12k-mk1-br-e16025-in-train-birmingham-snow-hill-side-fitted-uniquely-to-this-vehic.html

Railtop 99003: HO; Wegmann 15 Bogies for UIC-X coaches | #163061529

Railtop 99003: a pair of Wegmann 15 bogies for Railtop ÖBB/OBB (Austrian) UIC-X coaches. One with a generator as per prototype. Purchased to modify one of my coaches, but never used.

www.worthpoint.com

Tony

 

[Heather Kay]

Note the dreaded diseisel in the second picture, probably a class 24.

<anorak klaxon> It’s a BR Sulzer Type 2. The TOPS classification didn’t happen for about another decade. </klaxon>

What I love about these photos is the accidental detail that Tim captured, like the experimental bogie Tony picked up on. It’s just everyday railway stuff, the humdrum daily routine stuff, unnoticed by virtually everyone at the time.

 

[AJC]

The second picture of Lord Farringdon is also interesting because the bogies under the MK1 are clearly experimental. Possibly a Wegmann bogie? It looks like CK in the first picture?

https://hmrs.org.uk/aen718-wegmann-bogie-on-c12k-mk1-br-e16025-in-train-birmingham-snow-hill-side-fitted-uniquely-to-this-vehic.html

Railtop 99003: HO; Wegmann 15 Bogies for UIC-X coaches | #163061529

Railtop 99003: a pair of Wegmann 15 bogies for Railtop ÖBB/OBB (Austrian) UIC-X coaches. One with a generator as per prototype. Purchased to modify one of my coaches, but never used.

www.worthpoint.com

Tony

Yes, I think that's right - it's mentioned in the big book of Mark 1s (which should identify the vehicles?). a quick glance at the archive of the BR Coaching Stock email group archive mentions (via Robert Carroll) that Railway Observer 1963 page 323 reported CK E16015 and E16025 and SO E4723 with them, so I assume it's one of those CKs.

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

Well, some interesting stuff there. Thank you Tony and Adam for your advice regarding that bogie which I'd not noticed previously.

I appreciate your confirmation of those plane types too, Rob.

Class A3 60062 Minoru at Holloway Road in May 1963. It was a New England engine which went to Grantham and Doncaster before returning to New England from where it was withdrawn in December 1964. The trough defectors were fitted 5th June 1961. (SLS). It then went to King & Sons at Norwich where it was scrapped by the end of February 1965. (Rail UK).



This is V2 60950 also at Holloway Road in May 1963. This was also a New England engine but then went to Doncaster. (SLS). It was withdrawn in September 1963 and went to Doncaster for disposal which was complete early in November the same year. (BR Database)



Two general views of Holloway Road in May 1963.





A4 60032 Gannet at Holloway Road in May 1963. It was still a Kings Cross engine but went to New England a month later from where it was withdrawn in October the same year. (SLS). It then went to Doncaster where it was scrapped in December. (BR Database)



Brian

 

[John Ross]

Fabulous photos with plenty of inspiration for the modeller, thanks for sharing.

John

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your comment, John. Tim's wish was that we use these for prototype information and that seems to work well. Selfishly I have to say that working on these continues to be a privilege and gives me great pleasure.

For today we'll continue on the ECML.

Again at Holloway Road but now on 27th March 1963. A4 60025 Falcon on the 4.35 to Newcastle. It was a Kings Cross engine at the time, moving to New England in June 1963 and being withdrawn in October the same year. (SLS). It went to Doncaster and was scrapped in early January 1964.



Tim records the Kings Cross turntable as having broken down when this picture was taken on 27th March 1963 so locos were travelling light engine to Hornsey for turning. Here's 60045 Lemberg in dismal external condition at Holloway Road. In March 1963 it was a Darlington engine after which it moved around a bit but ended up at Darlington in in January 1964 from where it was withdrawn the following November. It had received its trough deflectors in November 1962 during a general overhaul. (SLS). Lemberg was photographed intact at Dairycoates by Brian Egan on 17 Feb 1965. The photo, together with an amended date of scrapping at Draper's yard of 29 March 65, is in Egan and Scotney's book "BR Locomotives cut up by Drapers of Hull".

Note the Ford Anglia 105s in the background.



On the same day, 27th March 1963, looking a bit scruffy is A3 60083 Sir Hugo light engine at Holloway Road on its way to Hornsey for turning. It was a Heaton engine in March, ending up at Gateshead in June and being withdrawn in May 1964. (SLS and BR Database). It received its trough deflectors in March 1962 at the end of a general overhaul. (SLS). It went to the delightfully named Hughes Bolckows at North Blyth where it was scrapped at the end of August 1964. (Rail UK).

Ford Anglia 105s in the background again.


Brian