Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

No doubt the CRA will identify the location but for what its worth I think it's Crianlarich West, the signal box and topography works. There was a curve there, I think your memory is playing tricks Jim. It could have been a B1 but by then LMS motive power had pretty much a strangle hold on WHL trains. I wonder if it might be a K4 although they were less common on WHL trains by then, they were allocated to Thornton around this time.
Regards
Martin

 

[Overseer]

Overseer - I'm aware of the Fort William association with aluminium so your proposal is very likely.

I didn't mention Ballachulish as the other alumina terminal as I couldn't remember the closing date of the Ballachulish branch and had a feeling it was early 1960s. It closed in March 1966 so is certainly a possibility or probability as it was a branch from the C&O. Ballachulish served Kinlochleven aluminium refinery which went to delivery by ship after the Ballachulish branch closed. The Lochaber aluminium refinery is at Fort William, now supplied with alumina from Aughinish in Ireland via Blyth the train to Fort William. There is a photo of Presflo wagons at Ballachulish in 1960 here - Ballachulish Shed - RAILSCOT

 

[JimG]

No doubt the CRA will identify the location but for what its worth I think it's Crianlarich West, the signal box and topography works. There was a curve there, I think your memory is playing tricks Jim.

Martin,

You are correct - brain fade with advancing years here. I checked in Jim Summers' Caledonian signalling book and there's an excellent picture of Crianlarich West box which matches the box in the picture - you can see the walkway by the line which led to the tablet catcher. And I checked up on an OS map and the loop curved at its entry point to straighten out leading to the junction.

And Rob is correct about the train at standstill since it would have been awaiting the arrival of the other train. You can see the FPL cover of the turnout leading to the single track just in front of the waiting train.

I think at the time of my interest in the line I probably took more time at the Crianlarich East box which sat between the legs of the junction - quite a complex formation for what was essentially a simple junction which didn't get a lot of use as a junction.

https://signalbox.org/~SBdiagrams/crianlaricheast1897.jpg

...and the much simpler West box

https://signalbox.org/~SBdiagrams/crianlarichwest1897.jpg

Jim.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Martin and Jim for the clarification/confirmation. Duly changed to the title and added to the info attached to the photo. Please keep an eye out for potential geographical errors though - my knowledge of Scottish rail routes is sorely lacking.

Overseer - I didn't know about the Kinlochleven refinery despite quite a few trips to Scotland so another bit of geography added to my arsenal.

Standard Class 5 73009 and an unidentified LMS Black 5 double heading entering Balquhidder from Oban on 12th September 1961. 73009 appears to have been a Scottish loco for its entire life, being at Perth South in 1961 but moving to Corkerhill in early 1963. It was withdrawn from there in July 1966. (SLS) Disposal took place at Motherwell Machinery and Scrap in Wishaw in September the same year. (BR Database).

With the benefit of belief I think the Black 5 may be 45357. It's a possible as in 1961 it was based in Stirling, moving to Corkerhill in April 1966. (SLS). It was withdrawn in December the same year and went to J McWilliams at Shettleston where it was scrapped by the end of April 1967.



Tim must have been beside himself with glee in getting a footplate ride on 45115 which was heading his train. These are both described as 45115 footplate view climbing to Dalmally 12th September 1961.





Brian

 

[oldravendale]

A not-so-great view which I suspect was taken from the train detailed in the previous posts. Tim records this as 55253 at Killin on 12th September 1961. However, there's a problem in that I can find no record of 55253 in any of the lists I have to hand. Any suggestions?



Another view from Black 5 45115 between Killin and Dalmally on 12th September 1961.



Our final views of Black 5 45115 now at Connel Ferry leaving for Oban on 12th September 1961.





Brian

 

[mickoo]

However, there's a problem in that I can find no record of 55253 in any of the lists I have to hand. Any suggestions?

Possibly 56235?

 

[oldravendale]

Although it's difficult to be certain, Mick, I think the loco in Tim's photo is one of the 0-4-4 tanks (Class 419?). 56253 was an 0-6-0T.

B

 

[Oban27]

Although it's difficult to be certain, Mick, I think the loco in Tim's photo is one of the 0-4-4 tanks (Class 419?). 56253 was an 0-6-0T.

B

Definitely an ex Caley 419! No where near my books at the moment to check the number, but possibly 56523. If not it could possibly one that was based at Oban.

Roja

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Roja, and for offering some further investigation.

Coming at the picture from another direction it's impossible to be certain about the number, and is it that important? We now know the loco class and could, I guess, create a list of likely candidates but that's about it. Personally I'm comfortable that we know the class - trying to be more detailed will be a matter of surmise.

I'll edit the description to "an unknown ex-CR Class 419" and leave it at that.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The 74 Caley 439 class 0-4-4Ts inherited by BR were numbered 55159-55236 (with gaps). However it could be one of the other classes of Caley 0-4-4T.

Hopefully the loco number and class can be narrowed down as the one in the photograph has a stovepipe chimney of which some of the 0-4-4Ts were later fitted with.

 

[mickoo]

Although it's difficult to be certain, Mick, I think the loco in Tim's photo is one of the 0-4-4 tanks (Class 419?). 56253 was an 0-6-0T.

B

Sorry should have been 55253

 

[Martin Shaw]

The LMS had built by Nasmyth Wilson in 1925, 10 tanks which in BR days were numbered 55260-55269. I think it's one of those, the number appears to be possibly 5526x .Note also that they were the 439 class, 419 is the Caley no of the preserved one.
Regards
Martin

 

[Oban27]

The LMS had built by Nasmyth Wilson in 1925, 10 tanks which in BR days were numbered 55260-55269. I think it's one of those, the number appears to be possibly 5526x .Note also that they were the 439 class, 419 is the Caley no of the preserved one.
Regards
Martin

Oops, my bad! Of course they were 439 class! Don't why I thought 419! I think it's a lack of a dram of a good single malt to lubricate the brain cells!

Roja

 

[Daddyman]

The LMS had built by Nasmyth Wilson in 1925, 10 tanks which in BR days were numbered 55260-55269. I think it's one of those, the number appears to be possibly 5526x .Note also that they were the 439 class, 419 is the Caley no of the preserved one.
Regards
Martin

But that batch has triangular builders' plates - this one seems to have oval (low on the bunker side). It's certainly not 55263, which had extra coal rails. 55207 and 208 were regulars on the branch.

Weren't the Killin locos taken from the Perth pool, not the Oban one?

 

[Gadgie]

I’m pretty sure that the photo of the ex-Caley tank engine was taken at Killin Junction (Killin Junction - RAILSCOT) rather than Killin. The junction would have been passed en-route from Balquhidder to Crianlarich, and Killin station had a much more open aspect with fewer trees.

I walked along the trackbed earlier in the year while staying in Killin, and thought the junction would make a nice model. It had a compact layout, interesting gradients, and a fine array of signals.

Richard

 

[Martin Shaw]

I've found two photos of 55263 at Killin which confirms Daddymans post, it did have more coal rails. It shouldn't be too difficult to arrive at which locos were still in traffic at that date and allocated to Perth, it wasn't so many. Yes it is Killin Junc.

Regards
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

My Dad was in the same area four years earlier in 1957 when he was based in Scotland. He took these two of Caley 439 class 0-4-4Ts.

55216 with a standard chimney at Kyle of Lochalsh.




55215 (63D, Oban) with a stovepipe chimney at Ballachulish. On the back of this photo are his notes: VP Exakta f2.8 Tessar, 1/250 f8, Orange filter, 02/07/1957, 15:55 BST, Cloudy, Pan X, Capitol (which I assume is the film developer he used).

 

[Martin Shaw]

For info only really. There were 40 of the 439 class still in traffic on the 12th Sept 1961 spread across Scotland. For these purposes there were 10 at Oban for Ballachulish traffic, which seems a lot, and 3 at Perth for Killin trains, which seems right. The question might be what else Oban did with all these engines which for the record were 55173, 204, 207, 208, 215, 220, 224, 230, 260, 263. 207 and 230 were withdrawn on the 13/9 and 14/9 respectively which leave 8 possible contenders. Perth shed by contrast had only three engines of this class at the time, 55209, 217, and 226 which also happens to be withdrawn on the 14/9. I therefore reckon that the engine in Tim's pic is either 55209 or 55217, take your choice, or one of the 8 Oban engines which seems less likely. BR Std 2-6-4T engines were working Killin trains in 1962 so the paucity of Caley tanks at Perth isn't a surprise, indeed all of the remainder were withdrawn in 62.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks all. Lots of lovely stuff to get our teeth in to despite my suggestion that the 0-4-4T could remain an unknown 419 (or, perhaps, a 439). Also I much appreciate the confirmation of the location, duly changed on the description.

We end up, then, with a CR loco with coal rails and stovepipe chimney. I thought that, perhaps, we'd found the loco with Dave's Dad's photo of 55215. However, the dome is wrong - Dave's photo has a "flat" dome. Tim's is properly domed. But if further investigation is possible, then bring it on! As a side thought, look at the number on the side of the bunker. It's another example of why model builders shouldn't get too screwed up about a few skew whiff transfers.

Thanks, Martin, for your analysis. Bearing in mind what we now know about the loco in Tim's photo comparison of some other photos may establish the actual candidate.

A further comment from me on Dave's Dad's pictures. From that description the film was probably sadly missed Kodak Panatomic X. It was a beautiful fine grained and slow (ASA25 or later 32) film. I'm not familiar with and can find nothing about Capitol developer. The favourite with Panatomic X was Microdol which had the benefit of slightly dissolving grain. The grain in the photos Dave has posted is certainly fine.

Hopefully time to post a few more pictures tomorrow.

Brian.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I therefore reckon that the engine in Tim's pic is either 55209 or 55217, take your choice, or one of the 8 Oban engines which seems less likely.

Do records tell you which one of the two you've noted had a stovepipe chimney? This would be the clincher if only one of them had a stovepipe chimney.