Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[mickoo]

Brian, re Woodhouse, it's 1500V DC Woodhead (fringe) what's not to like

From the latest, they're all 45's, as noted before, the MML was the home stay of the 45 and by 1982 the 46 class was decimated with scrappings, even at full compliment it was rare to see a 46 south of Sheffield heading for St Pancras. I won't say it never happened but 46 were usually cross country Leeds, York, Liverpool, Newcastle and London by the early 80's. They did get down into Devon and occasionally Cornwall on summer Saturday expresses in the 70's so they might have used the MML partially.

Regarding telling the difference, externally it's very very hard, I think one or two roof panels were slightly different and in the early days the 46 had the triangular grill and small vertical grill uncovered, but as time went by the 45's also began to loose the covers over the grills. By 1982 pretty much all the MML 45's were 45/1 with ETH heating, box and cable outside the RH buffer as you look head on, the corresponding receptacle is under the LH buffer when viewed head on; the 46 were steam heat untill the end.

The HST is interesting, most (all) were WR and ECML, I think WR were seven car sets (later strengthened to eight) and ECML were eight car as delivered, this is only six if I count it right. This could be a very early test run or driver training before HST took over from the 45's on the MML.

Regarding refurbished DMU's, was there a difference then

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The HST is interesting, most (all) were WR and ECML, I think WR were seven car sets (later strengthened to eight) and ECML were eight car as delivered, this is only six if I count it right. This could be a very early test run or driver training before HST took over from the 45's on the MML.

Yes - WR were delivered as 7 car sets and stayed at 7. ECML had 8 car sets. Once on the MML they ran as 8 car sets (TF, TF, TF, TRSB, TS, TS, TS, TS).

Those originally delivered to ECML had a kitchen and a buffet car (TF, TF, TRUK, TS, TS, TRSB, TS, TS) whereas the WR only had the buffet car (TF, TF, TRSB, TS, TS, TS, TS). There was also a cross country formation of 6 cars (TF, TRSB, TS, TS, TS, TS) - which could well be the one in the photo looking at the formation.

Later on a TS was replaced by a TSB in the sets to move the guards compartment out of the driving cars as they were very noisy and the ECML formation changed once the kitchen car was removed (TF, TF, TF, TRSB, TS, TS, TS, TS).

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Regarding the first photo of the most recent post by Brian, what is the equipment lying between the switch rails of all of the turnouts forming the ladder?

regards, Graham

Looking at some of the later photos posted of Chesterfield it is the wiring associated with the point locking mechanisms for the facing points. It appears these junctions are formed of longer points and therefore traversed at a higher line speed.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Looking at some of the later photos posted of Chesterfield it is the wiring associated with the point locking mechanisms for the facing points.

Dave
It really isn't, besides they're not particularly high speed turnouts, the point machines have an integral FPL and all the detection associated with the switch positions and FPL are contained therein. The points have a mechanical back drive however at that time the back drive wasn't independently detected. A detector would be obvious if it were there. I can't readily identify the point machine manufacturer, you have a choice of WBS, SGE, GEC, ML, and my reference material is buried at the moment. Point heaters Dave.
Regards
Martin
Formerly
STO, BR -LMR, CS&TE dept.

 

[Martin Shaw]

A bit of follow up, Chesterfield was resignalled as part of Sheffield PSB which originally opened in 1973 so strictly speaking it was an ER project despite Chesterfield being resolutely Midland. It fringed to Trent PSB, the change over between them, between Clay Cross and Chesterfield. The goods line were called the Barrow Hill lines for obvious reasons. Sheffiled PSB has been closed and that part of the railway is now controlled by East Midlands ROC. They tell me it's all for the better.
Martin

 

[mickoo]

Yes - WR were delivered as 7 car sets and stayed at 7. ECML had 8 car sets. Once on the MML they ran as 8 car sets (TF, TF, TF, TRSB, TS, TS, TS, TS).

Those originally delivered to ECML had a kitchen and a buffet car (TF, TF, TRUK, TS, TS, TRSB, TS, TS) whereas the WR only had the buffet car (TF, TF, TRSB, TS, TS, TS, TS). There was also a cross country formation of 6 cars (TF, TRSB, TS, TS, TS, TS) - which could well be the one in the photo looking at the formation.

Later on a TS was replaced by a TSB in the sets to move the guards compartment out of the driving cars as they were very noisy and the ECML formation changed once the kitchen car was removed (TF, TF, TF, TRSB, TS, TS, TS, TS).

I'm not so sure about the ECML consist, I cannot recall seeing a three first, buffet and four second set up, when the kitchen went it was replaced with another second class coach.

All my photos, from 81-83

1981 Peterborough, I think the 4th car might actually be a kitchen behind the buffet so an original set.



1983 Helpston, definitely five seconds here.



1983 Knebworth, again what looks like five seconds, unless of course the east facing side of the coach was the corridor side of the kitchen with full length windows? The lack of roof vents (on this and the previous shot) over what would be the kitchen, car kind of dismiss it as a kitchen and they are in fact seconds. HST's were never turned, 1st class was always on the stops at Kings Cross and Paddington.



There may have been a short duration (I dimly recall this but it was 40 years ago....now that's scary) with three firsts, but it didn't last long and I don't recall seeing one in service. It may have been just one or two services that ran to the same slots as previous Pullmans or named trains that the landed gentry frequented.

This following is an odd one, it's a seven car set on the ECML ripping north past the Manchester boat train as we peeled off at Helpston, the year would be 1980/81. We were doing about 60 and he was ton up easy, I was in the last coach at the last door window hoping he would catch us as we were both side by side at Peterborough. I suspect this is an 8 car set that has just lost it's kitchen and no new second class coach was available to strengthen the set.





I can still hear that Paxman clear as day and vividly remember the wiper washer hose flapping furiously in the slipstream.

I'm not sure when the smoke deflectors came in, I'm sure that was 80-81.

Excuse the diversion Brian but it's ECML and HST and this was 'my' era so Tims photos from the same time are most welcome.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I'm not so sure about the ECML consist, I cannot recall seeing a three first, buffet and four second set up, when the kitchen went it was replaced with another second class coach.

Correct - I was thinking they increased the first class accommodation - should have looked in my own back yard first . Therefore the sets were TF, TF, TRSB, TS, TS, TS, TS, TS.

Here's one of mine (looks like without smoke deflectors) taken in the very late 1970s/early 80's leaving York with the buffet car increasing the first class accommodation by half a coach. I have also read later some ECML sets went up from 2+8 to 2+9 trailers with the addition of a second class coach (two firsts, buffet, six seconds).

I also recall these trains being full and standing from York to KX.

 

[mickoo]

Yup, that's an original exhaust set up

I can't recall finding seats very often on HST on the ECML to be honest, they were often standing room only.

Worst I had was out of Paddington for a Reading show, there were rugby finals of something in wales, it was tube train style packed, arrived 10 mins late at Reading and being the spotter I was headed to the front end, poor old driver was standing there on the platform, hands on hips shaking his head. It's over loaded mate, could barely reach 100 and that's on the flat from Padd to RDG, I'll be glad when/if we get to Cardiff.

 

[oldravendale]

Dave and Mick. Thanks for your comments and reminiscences about HSTs. These are great and add so much to the story. In steam days a few extra coaches would have been added to a busy train or even a relief added to the timetable at short notice - witness the ACE - but I guess it was not so easy when stock is being so intensively worked.

Thanks, too, Mick about the info re-the 45/46s. I'll try to keep this in mind when I have to identify future photos.

Thanks too, Dave and Martin for the discussion about those between rails protuberances.

There follows a series of photos which will be over a couple of posts. These are described as "Workman at Syston Junction 1982" - the box photo confirms Syston North Junction. There are a few unidentified locos - 45's, a 31, a 47 and a 56 thrown in for good measure but it's the recording of the apparently simple task of refilling the signal oil lamps which Tim has captured here - and I know of no other similar series of photos. These are quite remarkable in their ordinariness. Something from this series would make a nice little cameo. These should probably be seen in frame order for best effect in describing the sequence and I'll probably get round to doing this as I create references for each photo in the collection - a job started but a long way from being completed.





Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Continuing the series from above.....




This is the only loco which can be positively identified in this set. It's 45040, the erstwhile D50, King's Shropshire Light Infantry. At the time of the photo it was a Tinsley loco, being withdrawn at the beginning of July 1987. It was reinstated as 97412 in September the same year being finally withdrawn in May 1988 and going to MC Metals at Springburn where it was cut up in October 1991.



The next series of photos will be back to more familiar ground, with steam on the WCML.

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

A cracking set of photos, especially so as you note for being mundane. I think the job of lampman has disappeared from Network Rail, I don't believe they have any oil lit semaphore signals now.

By 1982 the Leicester Gap, from Irchester South that fringed to West Hampstead PSB, to Loughborough that fringed to Trent PSB, was one of the largest enclaves of busy semaphore signalling left in the south of the UK. It was unusual that despite large chunks of it being 4 tracks wide they were separated into passenger and goods, rather than fast and slow or somesuch. This reflected the Midland origin, plenty of railways had goods lines, it's just that the Midland seemed to have mile upon mile on the London extension.

Syston is a triangular juncion, at that time there were three signalboxes, North and South on the main line and East on the line to Melton Mowbray and points further east. The first two photos are looking north, the signal are, far left No 19 Down Passenger starting, the three doll bracket from left to right, No 17 Up Passenger Home, No 4 Up Passenger to Up Goods Home, No 3 Up Passenger to East Junc Home, with respective South and East Junc up distants beneath. The two doll brackets has No 2 Up Goods Home and No 1 Up Goods to East Junc Home, again with respective distants.

Syston North Junc was a typical standard Midland three bay design with a 35 or possibly 38 lever frame Midland rocker frame probably relocked with tappet interlocking. I cannot access my reference material to confirm this. It was unusual in that it had an added lever A for the Up Goods Distant, presumably dating from LMS days, the goods lines may well have not had distant signals originally.

The fourth picture, looking south with South Junc in the distance, with the Brush type 4 shows it passing No 20 Down Passenger Home, on the left is No 26 Down Goods Home with No 30 Down Goods Calling On, and to their right No 29 Down Goods to Passenger Home. The goods lines were worked under permissive block regs so the calling on arm would be cleared for a train entering an occupied section. Also interestingly both dolls on the bracket have D signs for fireman call plungers whilst the passenger home has a Rule 55 exemption diamond, and that within one signalbox there are three distinct versions of LMS signals, tubular, Broad Flanged Beam and lattice. I think it likely that the down pass trains are for Derby or Nottingham, certainly in the previous decade when I was up an down the MML on a regular (daily) basis that would have been typical. The memory of sitting in a Mk 1 with wheels hunting at 100mph remains with me still. Hope this is of interest.
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

A cracking set of photos, especially so as you note for being mundane. I think the job of lampman has disappeared from Network Rail, I don't believe they have any oil lit semaphore signals now.

Are any remaining semaphore signals likely to be electrically lit?

 

[oldravendale]

That's a stunning lot of info, Martin, transcribed verbatim in to the set of photos. Thanks so much for adding so much detail to the bare bones. This is another of those occasions when I wish Tim was still with us. He'd have appreciated extending his knowledge of the line which was so close to his home in his later years.

Good question, Dave!

On to more normal fare and a location I remember well.

Princess Coronation 46236 City of Bradford on the down Caledonian at Bushey Troughs on 15th July 1960. It was a Carlisle Upperby engine at the time, moving to Edge Hill and back to Carlisle from where it was withdrawn in March 1964. (SLS and BR Database). It went to Crewe Works for disposal where it was scrapped by the end of April 1964. (Rail UK)



Still on 15th July 1960 and at Bushey Troughs is Royal Scot 46122 Royal Ulster Rifleman on a down Stoke train. At the time it was a Bushbury engine, moving around quite a bit before ending up at Annesley from where SLS reports it was withdrawn in October 1964 (BR Database reports withdrawal from Carlisle Upperby, also in October) although it then appears, according to the SLS, to have been reallocated to Carlisle Upperby from 7th November. There's clearly a bit of confusion here as Rail UK also notes withdrawal from Carlisle Upperby on 17th October. Nevertheless the loco went to Drapers in Hull where it was scrapped by the end of February 1965. (Rail UK)


Finally for today and still at Bushey Troughs on 15th July 1960 is Black 5 44766 on an up van train. At the time it had recently moved to Bescot from Monument Lane and via a number of intermediaries ended up at Crewe South from where it was withdrawn in August 1967. It was scrapped in December the same year at Cashmore's, Newport. (BR Database and SLS)





Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Dave asked

Are any remaining semaphore signals likely to be electrically lit?

Yes, simply, but there are variations as to whether it's a local battery or some form of central power supply. Only just picked this up, sorry.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the further update, Martin.

We're staying at Bushey Troughs on 15th July 1960 for the present. First is an unidentified 9F 2-10-0 on an up mixed freight.



Tim's entitled this "45552 Bushey Troughs Up Light Ex Royal Train 15 Jul 60" This was Silver Jubilee, and in 1960 was an Edge Hill loco although withdrawn from Crewe North towards the end of September 1964. It went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it met its demise during April 1965. (BR Database)



Bushey Troughs again on 15th July 1960. This is another Jubilee, 45644 Howe on an up extra. This was a Longsight engine at the time, moving to Crewe South at the end of the year and being withdrawn in November 1963. (BR Database). It went to Crewe Works for disposal and was scrapped by the end of January 1964. (Rail UK)



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Three more at Bushey, and an unexpected BR(S) photo.

This is Jubilee 45571 South Africa on a Down Blackpool train at Bushey Troughs on 15th July 1960. This loco was a long time resident of Blackpool shed although it moved to Speke Junction in November 1963 from where it was withdrawn in May 1964. (BR Database). It went to Connels at Coatbridge where it was scrapped by the end of October the same year. (Rail UK)



Another Jubilee, 45583 Assam, on an exceeding short Down possibly Parcels or a simple stock movement picking up water at Bushey Troughs on 15th July 1960. Assam belonged to Edge Hill at the time and went to a number of other sheds in 1960 and 61 before ending up at Warrington Dallam in 1961 from where it was withdrawn in October 1964. (BR Database). It went to Central Wagon Co at Wigan where it was scrapped by the end of July 1965. (Rail UK)



A Black 5 - 45024 on Bushey Troughs with an Up Freight - looks like minerals - on 15th July 1960. In 1960 it lived at Rugby and went to a number of other sheds before ending up at Springs Branch (Wigan) from where it was withdrawn in May 1967. It then went to Cohen's, Kettering for disposal which was complete during February 1968.



Unexpectedly in this series, and certainly out of sequence, is Brighton C2X 32528 at Haywards Heath Station on a Cattle Train on 12th July 1960.
This was a long term Three Bridges resident and was withdrawn from there in March 1961. (BR Database). It was scrapped at Ashford Works the same month. (Rail UK)



Brian

 

[mickoo]

Brian, I think you'll find the Black 5 is on the down goods, given the placement of the electrified tracks and curvature the photographer in on the Eastern side of the cutting. The fact that they also look empty adds weight to stock moving away from the city.

 

[Martin Shaw]

I'm open to correction but I think the lines at Bushey looking south are Slow, Fast, and DC, and therefore the black 5 is on the down slow. The C2x at HH is I think shunting as it's not on a running line or there would be a third rail. Hopefully after this weekend access to books will be restored and I can check these things.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for your corrections, Mick and Martin. You are both, of course, correct. The two lines nearer the camera have always been slow, including local passenger trains and the next two are fast lines. The photo is looking south so the Black 5 is on a down train. As for the C2X I reckon shunting is more likely than a cattle train judging by the other wagons apart from the absence of a third rail.

In general I'm transferring Tim's info verbatim. I really must look more closely at the photos to determine whether there are any obvious errors but doubtless there will be a few more.

I also note that, on the photo of Assam there's a tube train on the up DC line. This is itself historical as Bakerloo line trains no longer go as far as Watford, usually terminating at Harrow & Wealdstone.

Here are the last of the Bushey Troughs photos for the time being, so:

Bushey Troughs and Royal Scot 46108 Seaforth Highlander collecting water on a Down Manchester on15th July 1960. At the time it was a Longsight engine although it ended up at Carlisle Upperby. It was withdrawn in January 1963. (BR Database). It went to Crewe Works for disposal which occurred in early May the same year. (Rail UK)



Another Royal Scot, this time 46136 The Border Regiment at Bushey Troughs on the down Lakes Express on 15th July 1960. It belonged to Preston at the time and, after passing through a number of sheds also ended it's days at Carlisle Upperby being withdrawn at the end of March 1963. (BR Database). It was disposed of at Crewe Works in April 1964. (Rail UK)



Bushey Troughs on 15th July 1960 again but this time with original Patriot 45548 Lytham St Annes on an up Rugby train. It was shedded at Rugby at the time although moved to Nuneaton in December from where it was withdrawn in June 1962. (BR Database). It was scrapped in September the same year at Crewe Works. (Rail UK)



Finally, for this tranche, Black 5 44949 again at Bushey Troughs and with the scoop down on a down Birmingham on 15th July 1960. It was a Rose Grove engine at the time of the photo, later moving via a number of other sheds to Newton Heath from where it was withdrawn, right on the cusp of the end of steam, at the end of June 1968. (BR Database). It went to Drapers in Hull where it was scrapped by the end of January 1969. (Rail UK)



Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

Brian.
Your series of Bushey photos remind me of the perils of travelling right at the front with the windows open for maximum sound - the only place to travel in steam days. Could also be maximum wetting!
Loving all the photos.
Dave.