Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[mickoo]

I can't find a decent digital shot of the area that I think Tim was that's not covered by a train, but I do have this lovely shot of the signal box, I've no idea who's copyright it is, I grabbed it off the web a few years ago.



The gate is just visible between the handrail and what I assume is the 'dunni'. Not a place you could sneak in unobserved so Tim at least had the nod from the bobby to be there.

Today it's all changed but the main infrastructure is still there.


Street side you can easily see the blocked off old doorway.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for all the stuff about Holloway South Box, Mick and Martin. All added to the data for these photos.

For a change to the LMR.

Here's another of 44752, details in post # 1240.



Now to North Wembley (station in the left background) in April 1963. 45198 on the slow lines heading up what I believe to be a semi fast to Euston but may be empty stock. The Black 5s were used on all but the fastest trains and for us observers the usual shout was "another bloody Black 5 (or 8 freight)". 45198 was a Willesden loco at the time, then went to Chester in November 1963, Croes Newydd in October 1965 and finally Springs Branch (Wigan) in March 1967. It was withdrawn at the end of September 1967 and was scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge by the end of July 1968.



Also at North Wembley and in April 1963, but on the fast lines is another Black 5, 45021, on it's way to London. This certainly looks like an express, or at least a semi fast. 45021 was a Crewe North engine in April 1963, moving to Crewe South in September and being withdrawn in September 1967. It too went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for disposal and had been scrapped by the end of December.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Thanks for all the stuff about Holloway South Box

You're most welcome, I should stress because it's important that the box in MIck's picture is Holloway South Down Box, there was a Holloway South Up Box on t'other side of railway, as there was also at Holloway North and several other locations. For some distant unfathomable reason the GN, I think alone in Britain, favoured separate up and down boxes in busy locations. More reading I suppose.

44752 as well as having Caprotti valve gear also had Timken roller bearings on all axle, These differed fron the SKF version in that they were in a one piece split cannon housing, whatever benefit that may have accrued from reducing the need to drop axleboxes was probably mor than made up by the additional dismantling time if the need arose. None the less BR-LMR built 50 Black 5's with roller bearings so they can't have been a disaster. Another change that resulted from this was that the coupled wheelbase was lengthened by 4" at the rear to move the axle centre line further from the firebox, which beacme the standard for all subsequent locomotives.

Of the 3 pictured 5s this is the only railway built one, at Crewe in 1948, 16 years of use is a pretty disgraceful waste of asset life don't you think, whatever the prevailing political wind. 45198 was an Armstrong Whitworth loco of Oct 35, it's carrying ECS lamps so it probably is rather than a pass, I don't have a date to hand for the commissioning of Willesden PSB but if it was in use by 1963 then the lamps are next to no useful help anyway so more likely habit. 45021 was from Vulcan in 1934 so one of the very first. Having fired and driven several of the breed about the only things operationally I would change are the location of the blower valve, directly over the firehole door is the most unreachable location if needed, and Mr Deeley's abomination of a brake valve, no doubt cheaper than paying royalties to Gresham & Craven.
Regards
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks again Martin, and for the info about 44752. I suspect that most of us who were around as steam was withdrawn failed - and still fail - to understand the economics of scrapping what were, at the time, relatively modern assets. Furthermore, although some of the first generation diesels were successful there were an awful lot which were not. Germany seemed to have a more measured approach to modernisation, but that's a debate we've had on these pages previously so I'll not reinvent it here.

In truth I should have thought of checking the lamps on the two Black 5s at North Wembley although I have no specific knowledge of when the PSB came in to use. If I had to guess I'd have thought it was more than likely coincident with the resignalling associated with electrification. Anyway, info attached to the photos will be updated and expanded thanks to your input.

Three more on the LMR today.

Here's Princess Coronation 46228 Duchess of Rutland at North Wembley in April 1963. It was working out of Crewe North at the time and was withdrawn in September 1964 when it was sent to Cashmore's Great Bridge and scrapped by the end of the year.



Also at North Wembley in April 1963 but this time from the station platform is 8F 48629 light engine. It lived at Willesden at the time, moving to Birkenhead Mollington Street in October, then Saltley at the end of November. It was withdrawn in September 1966 and also went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped by the end of the year.



Finally we move to Headstone Lane in April 1963 - well, that's what the info with the photo says but Headstone Lane was not an island platform so I'm sure this is still North Wembley and taken from the footbridge we can see in the photo above. Anyway, it's an 8F doing what they did best. If only we could hear that again now. I can't work out the number from the grime on the front of the loco but what a cracking photo.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

We're back on the GWR for a while again.....

Here's the first of the 15XX 0-6-0PTs, 1500 itself. It's wearing an 81A, Old Oak Common shed plate and was photographed at Paddington in March 1963. It went new to Old Oak in 1949 and stuck there. Withdrawal came in December 1963 and it went to TW Ward, Briton Ferry where it was scrapped by the end of May 1964.



Now, here's an unexpected little gem of a time past. This has snuck in to the Paddington photos in March 1963 and is clearly in Praed Street, Paddington, W2. These "totters" and their horse drawn wagons were a common sight probably up to the 1960s but were becoming a rarity in London at the time this photo was taken. That could so easily be Steptoe and Son. For me a shot typical of the opportunistic style of photo journalism which Tim was so good at. There are some more London street scenes to come, but none are as charming as this one.

Note the street furniture of the time, the Ford Popular (probably) disappearing to the left of the scene and the bus, probably an RT, held up by the slow moving traffic ahead. Then there's the half timbered mini and what is possibly a VW Caravanette or van just inside the beautiful ornate iron gates of the private road, Norfolk Mews although the road sign says it's Norfolk Place. Google Maps shows that those gates are still there and it remains a private road.

This, to my eye, has the potential to make a lovely little cameo and even without applying Rule 1 could legitimately be included in a city street scene.

Oh yes! And since it's a matter of current interest where actually is all the litter?



A Castle at the buffer stops, Paddington in March 1963. This is 5057 Earl Waldegrave (have we seen this loco previously? I'm uncertain so brief details will follow). It looks in splendid condition, although sadly for not much longer, and is carrying an 81A shed plate. It had been at Old Oak since March 1960. A year to the month after this photo was taken 5057 was withdrawn and sent to Swindon for scrapping which was completed by the following August.

Lots of lovely modelling inspiration on the adjacent platform with this one.



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Note the street furniture of the time, the Ford Popular (probably) disappearing to the left of the scene and the bus, probably an RT, held up by the slow moving traffic ahead. Then there's the half timbered mini and what is possibly a VW Caravanette or van just inside the beautiful ornate iron gates of the private Road.

Not a VW - there is a hinge to the RHS of the rear window, VWs had a top hinge to the rear window flap.

regards, Graham

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Graham.

Wonder if it's a Commer then?

B

 

[daifly]

A Castle at the buffer stops, Paddington in March 1963. This is 5057 Earl Waldegrave (have we seen this loco previously?

Yes Brian. Here

 

[LarryG]

In 1950's/60's Oldham, dimps would be flicked in the gutter. Bobbies on the beat were eagle-eyed and would have you for dropping a fag packet, and we just wouldn't drop chip paper. Most everyone had coal fires and that was the place to get rid of everything. There was a pig bin down every ginnel for waste fruit and veg.

Back to choo-choo's, I like the side view of the Caprotti Five. Choc full of character. The coal can't be far off the loading gauge! Lots of leaking steam and a sharp exhaust, but they were plodders compared with the swift of foot normal Black five.

 

[oldravendale]

I'm so pleased that someone is paying attention, Dave.

You'll end up at the front of the class if you're not careful.

 

[daifly]

Wonder if it's a Commer then?

I don't think so. The vast majority of vans of the period (including the Commer) had a pair of rear doors. Apart from the rear-engined ones that had two top-hinged doors at the rear. The raised waist band should be a diagnostic but, despite a good search, I've struggled to find a likely candidate for the van type. Hopefully someone will be along with a definitive identification.
Dave

 

[daifly]

Cracked it. It's a Morris J2 van like this:

Dave

 

[simond]

I have an abiding memory of a van like that, a crew-bus model, I think it was a Morris.

At the age or 17, with my new licence in my wallet, and not much cash to keep it company, a friend of my mum’s asked if I would service his van for him. A price was agreed, and a pal enlisted. Oil, filters, tappets, adjust brakes, check lamps, etc.. Well within the capability of a couple of petrol heads who’d been fixing minis and motorbikes for a few years. And he mentioned that it used a lot of oil.

checked the book, 7pints, ok, cut the side out of an old oil can, drain oil whilst still warm. It’s going in the can, great, leave it whilst we do something else.

Hang on, where’s all that bloody oil coming from? There were about three gallons of oil in the engine. It made a dreadful mess of my mate’s mum’s front drive, she was not pleased at all. And it cost a fortune is washing powder to clean up.

but we won in the end. I told him I’d fixed the “using oil” problem, which earned a bit more cash. I had too, though I didn’t tell him how - I straightened the dipstick, so it went in properly.

 

[LarryG]

No, just no, no, no, write out 100 times after school Princess Coronation, Princess Coronation.......

Why do people still persist in calling these Duchesses, never were, never existed, do we call A4's Mallards, or A3' Flying Scotmens? No we do not

Where's me mask? Is this a new variant of RMWebitis?

 

[mickoo]

Where's me mask? Is this a new variant of RMWebitis?

Wow, that's an ironic snipe.

It's supposed to be a bit of Friday evening fun, but hey, you know what....sod it.

 

[Dave Holt]

That Caprotti 5 is something of an enigma. AWS and overhead warning flashes confirm a post 1960 date, but the tender still has the early BR emblem and the loco still has the original "gorilla arm" steam pipes, years after the straighter type were introduced. Lovely photo though.
Dave.

 

[mickoo]

That Caprotti 5 is something of an enigma. AWS and overhead warning flashes confirm a post 1960 date, but the tender still has the early BR emblem and the loco still has the original "gorilla arm" steam pipes, years after the straighter type were introduced. Lovely photo though.
Dave.

There were two types of steam pipe depending on the type of Caprotti gearbox, the low footplate ones (748-754) had the cranked (Gorilla) pipes the high footplate ones (686-687) had the straight pipes, both kept their style of steam pipe through out their lives.

 

[Dave Holt]

Looking at the Wild Swan profile book, it seem that locos 44738 to 47 (I've modelled 44741) had a straighter type of steam pipe compared with other low running plate examples. I had thought this was a later modification also applied to other locos but perhaps not.
Dave.

 

[mickoo]

Looking at the Wild Swan profile book, it seem that locos 44738 to 47 (I've modelled 44741) had a straighter type of steam pipe compared with other low running plate examples. I had thought this was a later modification also applied to other locos but perhaps not.
Dave.

Interesting, I didn't realize the second batch had a slightly straighter pipe, Wild Swan notes it as straight as built but then modified later, I've not yet found out what to nor found any late BR pictures that look any different to those shown as built. So that makes three types of pipe

 

[oldravendale]

But we call Royal Scots Royal Scots and Castles Castles, don't we , Mick? And Jubilees Jubilees and West Countries Battle of Britains. Hmm. P'raps you have a point.

(Mick is well aware that I normally call Duchesses Princess Coronations. I was speaking in the vernacular I suspect he was trying to elicit a reaction - weren't you, Mick?)

Thanks for the additional info on the Caprotti 5 Dave and Mick. It refines our knowledge yet further.

And Simon - remind me never to let you anywhere near my car.....

Brian