Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

That's well observed, Tony. I'd noticed it too - in fact when there is a bit of litter present I try to identify it and not paint it out as a bit of dirt on the neg. It's actually not too difficult to determine what's part of the image and what's not so these images really do show how much less we littered in the olden days.

The littering habits of some of our population are disgraceful, and despite laws to try to prevent it they appear to not be enforced - in fact I suspect they are pretty much unenforceable. We drive the A41 quite often and the state of the verges is frankly awful. They get cleaned up a couple of times a year and within a week or so it looks just as bad. Even our no through lane suffers littering. I don't believe it to be the residents so one has to wonder where it originates.

Don't get me started!

Brian

 

[Dog Star]

There is something very notable by its complete absence from these recent photos - now what the heck is it?

Oh yes - litter.

Not just litter... no clutter in OOC (previously on "Tim Mill's Photos", we have discussed detritus of the steam age being left on the floor of loco sheds).

 

[oldravendale]

I've just found out a bit more about 5955. It was converted to oil burning in 1947 and renumbered 3955. I don't have a specific date but it appears that 5955 had been reconverted back to coal and renumbered back to the original series at Swindon by 21 Oct 1948.

I'll add this to the data attached to the photo.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

This one is definitely at West Ealing for reasons which will become obvious in the next post!

Yes I would say so - and I think it was taken from the rear of Hastings House. In one respect we're thankful for the photographs being taken in the winter months - otherwise useful landmarks are obscured. I've ringed a few items on the map which tally with buildings in the photograph.

 

[LarryG]

A better view of a GWR Open third coach is seen behind Sir Edward Elgar. It appears to have a shallower turn under (or tumblehome) than most Collett coaches, maybe to give passengers more leg room in the open saloon or a wider central gangway.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your confirmation, Dave, and this is how I'm certain where this series of photos were taken.

Thanks for the info about the GWR Open Third, Larry. It'll be added to the data for that particular photo.

So, 7031 Cromwell's Castle on the Cathedrals Express in May 1963 at West Ealing. Cromwell's Castle was a Worcester engine in May 1963 being withdrawn in July. It was scrapped in June 1964 at Cashmore's Newport.



Next, also at West Ealing in May 1963 is Modified Hall 7914 Lleweni Hall. It was a Reading engine at the time of the photo, went to St Phillips Marsh in April 1964 and Bristol Barrow Road in June. It was withdrawn at the end of December 1965 and was scrapped in May 1966 at Cashmore's, Newport.



Finally in this set still at West Ealing in May 1963. This is 7000, Viscount Portal. For details see post #1179.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

A mixed bag is coming up....

First is Castle 7000 again at Paddington in May 1963. We've seen this loco quite a few times previously (most recently immediately above) and details are on post # 1179



Then across to Kings Cross also in May 1963 so possibly the same date. A1 No 60124 Kenilworth at the buffer stops. It was a Yok (North) loco at the time, moving to Darlington in November 1964 from where it was withdrawn in March 1966. It went to Drapers Neptune Street Goods Yard, Hull for disposal and it was scrapped in May. Of additional interest here is the train indicator board.



Near Tim's home at Hornsey is this shot at Holloway Road, also in May 1963. It's A1 60145 St Mungo. In May 1963 it was a Copley Hill (Leeds) engine, migrating to York (North) in September, then Darlington in January 1966 before being withdrawn in March the same year. However, it was reinstated in April and went back to York (North) for a couple of months before final withdrawal in June. It also went to Drapers in Hull for scrapping which had happened by the end of August.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Another at Holloway Road before we head back to the GWR and then, a little later, we'll escape to pastures new.

So, Holloway Road in May 1963. Clearly an A3 with German smoke deflectors but unfortunately we don't know which one. EDIT. This is not an A3! It's probably also A1 60145 St Mungo (see photo above).



Back to inside Old Oak Common Shed, May 1963. 6135 is carrying an 81A, Old Oak, shed plate. It appears to be unlined so is probably one of the few in black. It went to Reading in October 1964, then Southall in January 1965 before Oxford in the September. It was withdrawn at the end of the year and went to Cashmore's, Newport where it was scrapped in March 1966.



Also in steam and at Old Oak in May 1963 is a rather unusual visitor, Manor 7807, Compton Manor. It's a long way from home which was Oswestry at the time and one wonders how it came to London - it was clearly not for a special train judging by the external condition. It was transferred to Machynlleth in December 1963 from where it was withdrawn in November 1964. It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for disposal and the deed was done by February 1965.



Brian

 

[Jordan]

One thing that stands out to me with the records of some of these engines is just how quickly they were scrapped after withdrawal. It puts into perspective the situation at Barry (as per the Barry Thread on here) and what a miracle that really was, giving time for preservation groups to get funds together. Elsewhere, there was just no chance, was there?

 

[simond]

Single use plastics… crisp bags, carrier bags, plastic bottles.

I recall being in the car with our driver in Pune, following a bus, across the back of which was a very typical patriotic slogan “India is great” or something similar, and out of the windows of which was ejected a fairly continuous stream of rubbish. I asked whether the average Indian really loved his/her country and was assured that they really really do. So I asked why they kept throwing crap all over it?

At least with the old Corona, you got a tanner back on the bottle!

 

[daifly]

At least with the old Corona, you got a tanner back on the bottle!

You're showing your youth! When we used to swarm over the local building sites after the labourers had gone home in the late 50s, we used to pick up several bottles every day but, as I recall, we only got 3d from the grocer.
Dave

 

[AJC]

The big change, as @simond notes is plastic, but littering is part of humans being humans (ask any archaeologist, literally, any of them with any period specialism you want). Cigarette ends are perhaps too small to notice, but they were everywhere. Note too, that the Keep Britain Tidy campaign - just the best known among similar campaigns - was founded in 1955 by the Women's Institute. Every parish council minute I have ever looked at, all the way back until 1894 mentions street cleaning, the cost of labour to do it and the bill to ratepayers in taking the stuff away. There's a whole hill in Rome made of amphorae, used just the once...

Adam

EDIT - the specific context merits consideration, too: the railway was a much more human environment, the track maintained largely by hand, with an employer broadly quite concerned about staff safety and a huge body of poorly paid hard labour.

 

[mickoo]

Another at Holloway Road before we head back to the GWR and then, a little later, we'll escape to pastures new.

So, Holloway Road in May 1963. Clearly an A3 with German smoke deflectors but unfortunately we don't know which one.

View attachment 160494

Brian

Clearly not It's an A1, if you look closely there's a straight bit of deflector before the lower half is obscured by steam, plus the handrail is too large and has a faint riser section, the A3 Witte deflectors have two much thinner horizontal hand rails.

It could be an A2 but they were not common at the 'Cross', #533 was the only regular allocated engine in the south (Grantham) and a hand full from Leeds worked occasionally to the capital, most worked or were based in the north.

My guess is it's 60145 from the previous photo which is also leaking steam in the exact same place and trails a Mk I BSK.

 

[Dog Star]

Not just litter... no clutter in OOC (previously on "Tim Mill's Photos", we have discussed detritus of the steam age being left on the floor of loco sheds).

Was there less 'stuff' to actually litter with, at the time?

Jordan's comment, whilst accurate in the wider scope of rubbishology, causes me to clarify / expand my comment of a few days back.

Some time back, maybe in the pre-virus era, there were several images of depots up country where comments after the post were about the dirt, rubbish, discarded materials around the buildings and tracks. My recent comment re-clutter was noting the fact that the OOC photos did not reveal the same level / quantity of detritus as had been commented upon earlier in the topic.

Of course, maybe I ought to have recalled those rather neat stacks of firebricks against the office/store/workshop wall at Southall... thinking "at what state does a neat stack become litter / clutter / junk?".

regards, Graham

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Near Tim's home at Hornsey is this shot at Holloway Road, also in May 1963. It's A1 60145 St Mungo. In May 1963 it was a Copley Hill (Leeds) engine, migrating to York (North) in September, then Darlington in January 1966 before being withdrawn in March the same year. However, it was reinstated in April and went back to York (North) for a couple of months before final withdrawal in June. It also went to Drapers in Hull for scrapping which had happened by the end of August.

So, Holloway Road in May 1963. Clearly an A3 with German smoke deflectors but unfortunately we don't know which one.

With these two you can pinpoint where Tim was standing when they were taken.

In the top photo (looking south) the bridge carries Calendonian Road and the large building in the background is the Essoldo Cinema.

The bottom photo is looking north with the signal box on the left.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Surely as Mick has suggested the two photos were taken at the same time and of the same train. I would think Tim just pivoted around as the train passed him, seems most likely. Also despite the valve spindle/piston rod leak rather giving the game away, steam mechanical maintenance on the ER at the time still seemed to care although I wouldn't have put Copley Hill high up the list.
Martin

 

[mickoo]

With these two you can pinpoint where Tim was standing when they were taken.

In the top photo (looking south) the bridge carries Calendonian Road and the large building in the background is the Essoldo Cinema.

The bottom photo is looking north with the signal box on the left.

View attachment 160563

I believe there was a gate off Stock Orchard Street to access the box. Across the tracks are the remains of the platforms for the original GN terminus before the tunnels were dug into Kings Cross. I've got plenty of photos from the other side looking at Holloway box I'll see if I cab find a decent one that shows where Tim stood.

 

[mickoo]

Surely as Mick has suggested the two photos were taken at the same time and of the same train. I would think Tim just pivoted around as the train passed him, seems most likely. Also despite the valve spindle/piston rod leak rather giving the game away, steam mechanical maintenance on the ER at the time still seemed to care although I wouldn't have put Copley Hill high up the list.
Martin

I agree, even removing the coach, reflector shape and steam the engine has angled upper cab side sheets; the boiler/footplate relationship jars with an A3, which tended to look more smaller despite the boilers being near identical.

Whilst it may not be the same engine (highly unlikely) it most certainly isnt an A3.

 

[oldravendale]

Following up the comments above I'll certainly have to wear a hair shirt at some time!

Jordan - Private scrapyards all tended to scrap the locos they were sent in quick order. This was, after all, a source of cash flow for them. In fact we were lucky to have Woodham's on so may levels and I don't know the economies of Dai's business but it seems possible that he had a good contract with BR to scrap wagons and invested in the steam locos because he had some spare cash, the rental of the land at Barry was cheap and he gambled on the value of scrap metal increasing. As it happened he probably did well out of us preservationists! (And all power to his elbow for that). You'll doubtless be aware that occasional locos were scrapped at Barry when the supply of wagons dried up.

As for litter it seems to be a cultural thing apart from anything else. I've noted that most European countries have a similar littering problem to us - perhaps Germany and Belgium are a bit better. Africa (well Kenya) and India have a huge issue, and when I was in Kenya there were polythene bags all over the trees as one came near to a township. China suffers pollution but of a different sort. Most of Singapore is so clean you could eat a meal off the pavement. We come somewhere in the middle, I guess.

And before anyone accuses me of typecasting I'll admit that the above observations are personal and sweeping generalisations.

Graham - Clutter around the sheds seemed to increase as steam edged towards extinction. At the time I fear there was little pride in the job, not helped by the management or governmental interference at the time. I have some negs in my possession of Old Oak just pre second world war and the absence of clutter and trip hazards is very notable.

Simon and Dave - I too remember Corona bottles (well, my dad told me about them.....) It was part of the visit to Southall footbridge to collect a Corona on the way and return it to the shop on the way home so you had the money for the bus fare (well, I'm exaggerating with that last bit but you get the idea).

Dave. That location is perfect, and thanks again.

Mick and Martin - Hair shirt time. I should have referred that image to you before publishing it. In fact I'm sure you are right - the two negs in question are next to one another so it's almost certain that Tim turned and took the photo of the train travelling away from him. To my ignorant eye it looked like an A3 and could, of course, have been a following train, but I'm utterly convinced by your proposal and I'll change the description accordingly.

In truth, as far as these images are concerned when we have so little original detail WT is a tremendous source of knowledge and I'm pretty sure that I'll make some similar mistakes in the future. I'm really grateful to those who take the time to correct my errors.

Back to the GWR but only briefly before we start on a few from the LMR.

Old Oak Yard in May 1963 and a King languishes after withdrawal. I'm strongly of the opinion that it's 6023 King Edward II which I photographed in he same position and with pannier tanks in the same orientation behind in September 1963. It had been resident at Old Oak from June 1956 and was withdrawn in June 1962. As a result of a happy accident involving bridge weight testing it ended up at Woodham's. Brief details of 6023's career post withdrawal and leading up to preservation appear in my Barry 1967 and 1968 thread so I'll not repeat here.



So here's condensing pannier tank 9706 in Old Oak in May 1963. I'm uncertain whether I've written this one up previously so here's a brief synopsis. As far as I can tell it had been an Old Oak engine for ever and was withdrawn from there in November 1964. It went to RS Hayes/Birds, Tremains Yard, Bridgend where it was scrapped by the end of February 1965.



Across the road - well, along the canal a bit - to Willesden Shed in May 1963. This is a really good record shot of Caprotti Black 5 44752. The Caprotti 5s were not often seen at Willesden. At the time it was a Stockport Edgeley loco being withdrawn from there in the middle of April 1964. It was scrapped at Crewe Works in June.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

I believe there was a gate off Stock Orchard Street to access the box.

There was Mick, Holloway South Down box. The interior sported a Tyers F type block instrument as did a few others around the southernmost extremes of the ECML. This is apparently normal except that the understanding is that it was an instrument developed for the WD, the only major user being the LMS in former Caley territory, the WCML to be accurate, to replace the elderly and somewhat obsolete Tyers 2 position instruments. I think the LNER was able to purchase a few from either Tyers or the WD prior to the LNER version which was an even more penny pinching design that fitted the straightened circumstances of the LNER.

Ineteresting byway to wander down even if nothing actually to do with a picture.
Regards
Martin