LarryG
Western Thunderer
The sun had to be high in the sky to make that shadow.
Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
Wagonman
Western Thunderer
Where I was in Wiltshire there was snow on the ground in April and even a smattering of fresh snow in May. It was also the time I started a measles epidemic at school, but that is another story.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks for all the thoughts about time of year. I'll take my guess from the coat the lady is wearing and the quite harsh shadows as being quite possibly late Autumn to early winter '63. I also remember that winter and one particular day my dear departed father coming with me on my paper round to help get me through the snow drifts - in Harrow!
Here's a group of photos, all at Feltham circa 1964. All feature the same S15 with one pair including a Standard 4 2-6-4T. The Standard tank is 80148, a Brighton engine since built in 1956 until transfer to Feltham in June 1963. It was withdrawn a year later and went to Steel Supply Company, West Drayton for disposal which was completed in March 1965. It was one of only two engines to go to Steel Supply Company, the other also being a Standard 2-6-4T.
The S 15 is 30824, clearly carrying a 70B (Feltham) shedplate. It was at Salisbury from 1951, then Feltham in January 1964 (incidentally putting the prospective date of these photos back to 1964), then Eastleigh a year later which was probably a book transfer only as on the same day it's shown as back at Feltham although it actually did transfer to Eastleigh in July 1965. It was withdrawn from there on 5th September the same year even though I have a photo of it as withdrawn at Feltham alongside 30833 (which actually was a Feltham engine) on 10th September 1965. For those interested in such details, pick the bones out of that! Perhaps it simply failed at Feltham and was withdrawn on the spot. It went to Cashmore's, Newport for scrapping which occurred in December the same year.
Brian
Here's a group of photos, all at Feltham circa 1964. All feature the same S15 with one pair including a Standard 4 2-6-4T. The Standard tank is 80148, a Brighton engine since built in 1956 until transfer to Feltham in June 1963. It was withdrawn a year later and went to Steel Supply Company, West Drayton for disposal which was completed in March 1965. It was one of only two engines to go to Steel Supply Company, the other also being a Standard 2-6-4T.
The S 15 is 30824, clearly carrying a 70B (Feltham) shedplate. It was at Salisbury from 1951, then Feltham in January 1964 (incidentally putting the prospective date of these photos back to 1964), then Eastleigh a year later which was probably a book transfer only as on the same day it's shown as back at Feltham although it actually did transfer to Eastleigh in July 1965. It was withdrawn from there on 5th September the same year even though I have a photo of it as withdrawn at Feltham alongside 30833 (which actually was a Feltham engine) on 10th September 1965. For those interested in such details, pick the bones out of that! Perhaps it simply failed at Feltham and was withdrawn on the spot. It went to Cashmore's, Newport for scrapping which occurred in December the same year.
Brian
A
Arun
Guest
I recall the winter of '62-3. In East London it started snowing on Boxing Day '62 and snow was still thick on the ground until April '63.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
More at Feltham in 1964 and therefore, inevitably, more S15s but one of the big tanks too. Regrettably the first two shots suffer from the winding problem so are incomplete images.
Firstly Urie S15 30507. This loco had been a Feltham resident since at least 1948, was withdrawn in mid December 1963 and scrapped at Cohen's, Kettering in March 1964.
One of the less photographed classes, a W 2-6-4T, No 31922. This was at Feltham from mid November 1962 and was withdrawn at the end of August 1963. This loco also went to Cohens at Kettering and was scrapped in June 1964. It's coupled to 30518, an H16 4-6-2T, shorn of coupling rods so certainly withdrawn at this time. Withdrawal came at the end of November 1962 and it, too, went to Cohen's where it was scrapped in April 1964 so was probably stored, withdrawn, for a year or so.
Finally Urie S15 30509. As with 30507 it had been at Feltham since at least 1948 and was withdrawn in July 1963, going to Cohens at Kettering where it was scrapped in March 1964. I can't quite read the details for the Q1 behind.
Brian
Firstly Urie S15 30507. This loco had been a Feltham resident since at least 1948, was withdrawn in mid December 1963 and scrapped at Cohen's, Kettering in March 1964.
One of the less photographed classes, a W 2-6-4T, No 31922. This was at Feltham from mid November 1962 and was withdrawn at the end of August 1963. This loco also went to Cohens at Kettering and was scrapped in June 1964. It's coupled to 30518, an H16 4-6-2T, shorn of coupling rods so certainly withdrawn at this time. Withdrawal came at the end of November 1962 and it, too, went to Cohen's where it was scrapped in April 1964 so was probably stored, withdrawn, for a year or so.
Finally Urie S15 30509. As with 30507 it had been at Feltham since at least 1948 and was withdrawn in July 1963, going to Cohens at Kettering where it was scrapped in March 1964. I can't quite read the details for the Q1 behind.
Brian
Dave Holt
Western Thunderer
More wonderful photos, Brian.
The shots of Feltham remind me that I once paid a visit as part of an organised group, though I can't remember much about it.
We travelled from Manchester London Road, overnight, to Marlylebone, arriving very early in the morning. There was an ex-Liverpool train that arrived at 05.05, so that must have been it. Through trains finished in January 1960, so I guess it would be 1959 - I was nine years old. We were met by an aged coach - a proper charabanc.
First stop on the tour was Nine Elms. However, despite having an official permit, we were refused entry - I never got another opportunity. So, after some argument with whoever was refusing, we carried on the the rest of the tour, which included Guildford and Feltam. There were probably other places, but I can't recall them.
Keep up the good work of digitising Tim's photos.
Dave.
The shots of Feltham remind me that I once paid a visit as part of an organised group, though I can't remember much about it.
We travelled from Manchester London Road, overnight, to Marlylebone, arriving very early in the morning. There was an ex-Liverpool train that arrived at 05.05, so that must have been it. Through trains finished in January 1960, so I guess it would be 1959 - I was nine years old. We were met by an aged coach - a proper charabanc.
First stop on the tour was Nine Elms. However, despite having an official permit, we were refused entry - I never got another opportunity. So, after some argument with whoever was refusing, we carried on the the rest of the tour, which included Guildford and Feltam. There were probably other places, but I can't recall them.
Keep up the good work of digitising Tim's photos.
Dave.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks for the reminiscences, Dave. I had a contrary experience - twice at the same place. I was at Stratford Station watching the twilight of GER steam (although I didn't know it then) and on two occasions a friend and I were approached by someone advising us that they had a shed/works pass and needed some people to make up a party. We didn't need to be asked twice and had two brilliant visits. It never happened anywhere else! That reminds me that we used to watch out for trains on the low level at Stratford. Usually N7s or L1s but occasionally a Flying Pig. In a while (probably at least a year away !) there are some wonderful photos by Tim on this low level/local/commuter/dockland line in steam days.
Some while ago one of our number asked whether the Bulleid pacifics were ever used on freight, as they were apparently designated when built as mixed traffic. The answer may be here (although there are a few photos of them on freight). This and the following, very similar, frame is again entitled "Feltham 1964". The date is quite probably correct. Both these photos have an element of camera shake which makes some of the detail difficult to interpret. However 34019, Bideford, was most certainly allocated to Feltham, a freight shed, between September 1964 and November the same year. Was it moved away because it was found to be unsuitable for the work? I suggest that it was a bit late to find out. You'll note that the loco is missing the nameplate on this side at least but it may be that there's some effort been made to apply the name in chalk. Certainly it looks very well looked after in these two shots.
I saw and photographed this engine at Eastleigh on 5th September 1965 on "The Hants and Dorset Rail Tour". It then had a full set of nameplates and crests and looked superb. I photographed it again on the last day of steam, 6th July 1967, at Nine Elms when it was probably contributing parts to Blackmore Vale. It was bereft of almost everything, including its dignity by then.
So, to the detail. It was at Feltham between September 1964 and November 1964 when it moved to Eastleigh. At he end of June 1966 it moved again, this time to Nine Elms and was withdrawn on 19th March 1967. It went to Cashmore's Newport for disposal which had occurred by the September.
Here's another of the Southern big tanks. It's W 2-6-4T 31912. It was at Feltham from the new year 1964 until withdrawn in August the same year. It went to Cohen's in Kettering and was scrapped in the November. I'll be happy to provide a blow up of the wagon if of interest.
Brian
Some while ago one of our number asked whether the Bulleid pacifics were ever used on freight, as they were apparently designated when built as mixed traffic. The answer may be here (although there are a few photos of them on freight). This and the following, very similar, frame is again entitled "Feltham 1964". The date is quite probably correct. Both these photos have an element of camera shake which makes some of the detail difficult to interpret. However 34019, Bideford, was most certainly allocated to Feltham, a freight shed, between September 1964 and November the same year. Was it moved away because it was found to be unsuitable for the work? I suggest that it was a bit late to find out. You'll note that the loco is missing the nameplate on this side at least but it may be that there's some effort been made to apply the name in chalk. Certainly it looks very well looked after in these two shots.
I saw and photographed this engine at Eastleigh on 5th September 1965 on "The Hants and Dorset Rail Tour". It then had a full set of nameplates and crests and looked superb. I photographed it again on the last day of steam, 6th July 1967, at Nine Elms when it was probably contributing parts to Blackmore Vale. It was bereft of almost everything, including its dignity by then.
So, to the detail. It was at Feltham between September 1964 and November 1964 when it moved to Eastleigh. At he end of June 1966 it moved again, this time to Nine Elms and was withdrawn on 19th March 1967. It went to Cashmore's Newport for disposal which had occurred by the September.
Here's another of the Southern big tanks. It's W 2-6-4T 31912. It was at Feltham from the new year 1964 until withdrawn in August the same year. It went to Cohen's in Kettering and was scrapped in the November. I'll be happy to provide a blow up of the wagon if of interest.
Brian
AJC
Western Thunderer
I do like the W, solid beasts. The wagon is a fairly common type, one of the LNER’s better efforts, a steel high, with that company’s 8 shoe vacuum brake gear. It seems to be loaded with ash (you often see these in shed shots, possibly because they could take the heat better than wooden vehicles). Intriguingly the chalk says ‘loco’ which might mean it came in with coal.
And yes, the Pacifics were certainly used on freight - I’ve even seen a shot of a Merchant Navy shunting Axminster goods yard! Other traffic - aside from the ‘last day’ Weymouth fruit trains which are well-attested but common workings - that I’ve seen photographed include block trains of cement, bananas and more run of the mill freight.
Adam
And yes, the Pacifics were certainly used on freight - I’ve even seen a shot of a Merchant Navy shunting Axminster goods yard! Other traffic - aside from the ‘last day’ Weymouth fruit trains which are well-attested but common workings - that I’ve seen photographed include block trains of cement, bananas and more run of the mill freight.
Adam
Dave Holt
Western Thunderer
One of Salisbury's MN duties had a return working of an overnight freight from Nine Elms Goods. I'm sure there were others. The locos, and their lighter brethren, were probably a right handful on unfitted workings, due to lack of brake power - OK on fitted or semi-fitted trains.
Dave.
Dave.
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
Hi Brian,
I used to travel to Stratford from New Cross via the Underground system in late 58and 59 and on one such occasion, had the same invite as you, so who knows, we may have done the visit together!!
kind regards
Mike
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
I'm with you on the Ws, Adam. Thanks for the input about the wagon too. Thanks to you and Dave for the info backing up the use of the SR pacifics on freight. I freely acknowledge that their top link passenger locos were used by all regions as maids of all work towards the ends of their lives although I'd have thought that the adhesion issues (all vastly overblown in my experience but nevertheless with more than a grain of truth) of the SR light pacifics in their original condition would have made them quite unpopular as freight locos.
I wonder, Mike..... As I've said previously although I didn't know him at the time Tim was in the same locations as me on quite a few occasions so it's entirely possible that you and I have crossed paths at Stratford. I have an abiding memory of the Underground trains shooting out of the tunnel to the surface station at Stratford and immediately burrowing below ground again.
We'll move back to the WR again now, specifically Southall shed and environs c1964 - I'll be no more precise until we have a few pictures and details to confirm the year. First an unidentified 9F in typical condition for the period. Southall hosted a number of these and it was rare towards the end not to see several on shed and working turn and turn about with the 28XX and 2884 2-8-0s and the occasional visiting Black 5 or 8F. It may be possible to identify this loco later using other images taken at the same time.
And here is one of the 28XX 2-8-0s. No 2859. It had come to live in London from the West, being at Pontypool Road from the end of December 1959, then Cardiff East Dock from the end of August 1964 and finally allocated to Southall from October 1964 - our first indication that these photos may have been taken towards the end of that year or early in 1965. It didn't last long, though, and had been withdrawn by Boxing Day the same year and was one of the final three to be working. It is almost certainly coupled to 5569 - see below. It was one of the fortunate ones, though, as it went to Woodhams in Barry, being recorded there by the SLS in 1965, 1966 and 1968. It came out of Barry in 1987 and went to the Llangollen Railway but has, I understand, subsequently been sold on to a private buyer.
Finally 4575 Class 2-6-2T 5569. This moved to Southall from Swindon in late 1963 and was also withdrawn from there on Boxing Day 1964. It wasn't as fortunate as the 2-8-0, though, and went to Cox & Danks at Park Royal for scrapping which was done in April 1965.
As an aside, despite my many visits to Southall and there being several of the class shedded there I never saw a 4575 tank anywhere near. In fact, as Southall had quite a number of the powerful 61XX 2-6-2 tanks at their disposal and which I photographed quite often I'm rather surprised that it was found expedient to transfer a less powerful version there. However, Tim has a nice few photos of them in use.
Brian
I wonder, Mike..... As I've said previously although I didn't know him at the time Tim was in the same locations as me on quite a few occasions so it's entirely possible that you and I have crossed paths at Stratford. I have an abiding memory of the Underground trains shooting out of the tunnel to the surface station at Stratford and immediately burrowing below ground again.
We'll move back to the WR again now, specifically Southall shed and environs c1964 - I'll be no more precise until we have a few pictures and details to confirm the year. First an unidentified 9F in typical condition for the period. Southall hosted a number of these and it was rare towards the end not to see several on shed and working turn and turn about with the 28XX and 2884 2-8-0s and the occasional visiting Black 5 or 8F. It may be possible to identify this loco later using other images taken at the same time.
And here is one of the 28XX 2-8-0s. No 2859. It had come to live in London from the West, being at Pontypool Road from the end of December 1959, then Cardiff East Dock from the end of August 1964 and finally allocated to Southall from October 1964 - our first indication that these photos may have been taken towards the end of that year or early in 1965. It didn't last long, though, and had been withdrawn by Boxing Day the same year and was one of the final three to be working. It is almost certainly coupled to 5569 - see below. It was one of the fortunate ones, though, as it went to Woodhams in Barry, being recorded there by the SLS in 1965, 1966 and 1968. It came out of Barry in 1987 and went to the Llangollen Railway but has, I understand, subsequently been sold on to a private buyer.
Finally 4575 Class 2-6-2T 5569. This moved to Southall from Swindon in late 1963 and was also withdrawn from there on Boxing Day 1964. It wasn't as fortunate as the 2-8-0, though, and went to Cox & Danks at Park Royal for scrapping which was done in April 1965.
As an aside, despite my many visits to Southall and there being several of the class shedded there I never saw a 4575 tank anywhere near. In fact, as Southall had quite a number of the powerful 61XX 2-6-2 tanks at their disposal and which I photographed quite often I'm rather surprised that it was found expedient to transfer a less powerful version there. However, Tim has a nice few photos of them in use.
Brian
daifly
Western Thunderer
Hi Brian
I have a photo of 5569 taken on 28th Dec '63 near High Wycombe on a short freight train. The light coloured 'stripe' below the cab shutter is also evident and is also cleaner (earlier?) than Tim's view. The stripe is on a vertical line of rivets.
I also have a colour photo of 5569 at Southall on 9th May '64 which shows the loco from the opposite side to Tim's view but showing a fair amount of rust in the cylinder/smokebox/chimney areas - more than is evident in Tim's image suggesting a possible photo date between these two dates.
Dave
I have a photo of 5569 taken on 28th Dec '63 near High Wycombe on a short freight train. The light coloured 'stripe' below the cab shutter is also evident and is also cleaner (earlier?) than Tim's view. The stripe is on a vertical line of rivets.
I also have a colour photo of 5569 at Southall on 9th May '64 which shows the loco from the opposite side to Tim's view but showing a fair amount of rust in the cylinder/smokebox/chimney areas - more than is evident in Tim's image suggesting a possible photo date between these two dates.
Dave
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Dave (@daifly),
And you did not think that I might be interested?
I attended Priory Road school between 1958 and 1962... and I have no recollection of seeing GWR small prairies - Westerns, Castles, Halls, 2800s, 6100s and panniers for certain but nothing else of GW persuasion. Oh, and there were 9Fs and B1s.
Please start your own "photos" topic and entertain us all.
regards, Graham
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Dave and Graham. Thanks for your additions to our info and now early 1964 seems reasonable, but Graham, I'm surprised that you don't include the 61XX tanks among your reminiscences.
As it's now evening time I'm taking the easy way out and you now have three views of the same loco. This suggests that Tim was as surprised as I would have been to see a 4575 2-6-2T at Southall. (I've checked my personal images and I neatly bracket 1964. I suspect I discovered wimmin that year!) It's still 1964 according to Tim's info. The loco is indisputably 4575 No 5531. At east one of these photos has the film winding problem seen previously but they are all so similar I suggest it doesn't matter. It moved from Laira - a location still visible on the buffer beam - at the end of September 1963. Maybe it left with some ceremony, as the smokebox door hinge straps are well bulled up.
However, on Boxing Day 1964 it went the way of all - or most - steam locos via Cox & Danks, Park Royal where it was despatched by the end of April 1965.
Brian
As it's now evening time I'm taking the easy way out and you now have three views of the same loco. This suggests that Tim was as surprised as I would have been to see a 4575 2-6-2T at Southall. (I've checked my personal images and I neatly bracket 1964. I suspect I discovered wimmin that year!) It's still 1964 according to Tim's info. The loco is indisputably 4575 No 5531. At east one of these photos has the film winding problem seen previously but they are all so similar I suggest it doesn't matter. It moved from Laira - a location still visible on the buffer beam - at the end of September 1963. Maybe it left with some ceremony, as the smokebox door hinge straps are well bulled up.
However, on Boxing Day 1964 it went the way of all - or most - steam locos via Cox & Danks, Park Royal where it was despatched by the end of April 1965.
Brian
A
Arun
Guest
Branch Lines Around Wimborne [Middleton Press] has a picture [Pic 93] of 34051 with a train of cattle wagons on 14 Oct 61 by West Moors. I suspect I have seen a pic of Winston Churchill with a train of oil wagons for West Moors as well.
Oh! How are the mighty fallen!
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Brian (@oldravendale), I do! The tanner-ones were built by Swindon before nationalisation and so the class "name/number" identification is "6100" rather than "61XX". I was aged 9 to 11 when at Priory Road school so the details given earlier are not inclusive... I do not recall what motive power was used for the services to/from Marylebone, probably because I borrowed only GWR-themed books from the library.
Here is 6106 in HWyc. North Yard.
The school playground was adjacent to the railway embankment between HWyc. Middle SB and HWyc. North SB so there were plenty of opportunities to watch the trains go by although such activities were constrained to the school day between 09.00 and 04/00.
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daifly
Western Thunderer
Brian
In the second of your photos of 5531, the cab of 7922 Salford Hall is visible. This loco was at Southall from Dec62 to Aug65. The chalked writing on the cab I assume is “prep 6 (or 16)/3/64” which I suggest gives a pretty good approximation of the date.
Dave
In the second of your photos of 5531, the cab of 7922 Salford Hall is visible. This loco was at Southall from Dec62 to Aug65. The chalked writing on the cab I assume is “prep 6 (or 16)/3/64” which I suggest gives a pretty good approximation of the date.
Dave
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Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Dave and I have had a WT-PM discussion about the location of this photo. I believe that we agree that the photograph shows an up freight at the west end of High Wycombe North Yard. The key pointers in the photo are the down starter and shunt signal to the LHS and the double slip for the entry to the chalk sidings on the RHS, both are shown on the SRS page for High Wycombe North Signal Box.
I worked this box a couple of times a month circa 1967-68 - I do not recall ever putting any service inside the chalk sidings.
regards, Graham