Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thanks again Dave. Sorry I got the electric unit wrong. Those earlier shaped cabs always seemed to my eye much better looking than the flat fronted versions.

Wagonman - it's reminiscences like yours that bring this thread, and the descriptions to go with the photos alive. As far as I'm aware you are actually correct, and I believe the last Kenny Belle was worked by 82029. I have a photo of it at Nine Elms on 6th July 1967 topping up with water and then sitting outside the shed, but to what end on the last day I've no idea!

Three more at Vauxhall, all in 1964 again and I wonder if, for reasons to become plain, Tim was trying for the perfect picture of the "Belle". The train bracketing the Bournemouth Belle seem to be the same in loco type and consist. First is one which appears to be a repeat of the one in post #953 but isn't. This is 35006, Penninsular and Oriental S. N. Co as in the previous photo but this time with an unidentified rebuilt WC/BB with a full set of plates carrying a head code disc on the top bracket. They are backing down to Waterloo so must be on another day. That wheelbarrow and gravel don't seem to have moved so perhaps these photos were taken on two consecutive days. Mr Holt of this parish may have an interest as he advises me that this was a rarely photographed engine.



Here's 35021, New Zealand Line, and this is, I'm pretty certain, the Bournemouth Belle again, so must be on a day other than the train in post #958. 35021 had been a Bournemouth engine since 1957 and was withdrawn at the beginning of August 1965. It was scrapped in October the same year at R S Hayes/Birds, Tremain Yard, Bridgend.



The last one for today is Standard 5 73155. The shed plate could read either 70B or 70D but in 1964 70B Feltham is the more likely as it had been there since early January. It's interesting to me that this may indicate that some of the Feltham locos were rostered for passenger work despite Feltham being a freight shed as we've seen one already on a passenger train and according to the head code this is actually a boat train to Southampton via Millbrook. (Thanks again Dave). In November 1964 it went to Eastleigh, then Guldford in the midddle of April 1967 before withdrawal in July. It ended up at Cashmore's Newport where it was scrapped in March 1968.



Brian

 

[Dave Holt]

Thanks, Brian. Another lovely but rare shot of 35006 in BR service.
The loco was shedded at Salisbury for nearly all its working life, both before and after modification. Salisbury had two MN specific duties - 431, which arrived at Waterloo at 10.08 am and departed for Exeter at 1.00 pm. I imagine that both of Tim's photos are of the light engine movement from Nine Elms, some time before departure.
The other diagram was 461, which arrived at Waterloo at 6.40 pm, rather late in the day for these photos. In any case, the return working was a freight from Nine Elms Goods at 10.00 pm, so there would be no light engine movement up to Waterloo station.
There was one other duty to Waterloo, 430, which arrived at Waterloo at 9.20 am and returned at 11.54 am but, in theory, this was a Light Pacific duty. Of course, there could be a MN substitution, I suppose, as Salisbury had three MNs allocated.
Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

Additional info very welcome again, Dave. Thank you.

A mix of Clapham and Vauxhall today, both 1964. First Clapham and Standard 3 82022 with a Waterloo to Clapham Junction empty train and light engine headcode and probably therefore ECS. 82022 featured in post #948 so that's where to go for more info.



Now two similar photos at Vauxhall. This is original Battle of Britain 34061, 73 Squadron on an up train carrying a Waterloo to Bournemouth West via Sway headcode so (I assume) the same route in reverse. 34061 was at Eastleigh by 1964 and withdrawn in mid August the same year. It was scrapped during March 1965 at P Woods (Shipbreaking), Queenborough, Kent.



Unfortunately focus has gone awry on this one so although it can be identified as a West Country on an up train that's about it. It's carrying a Waterloo or Nine Elms and Plymouth head code.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The bottom two photos are looking towards Nine Elms.

The building on the right was a clothing factory (1930s-40s looking building) with an engineering works behind (castellated looking end wall).

In the backgroud the tall building was the Plowman, Barrett & Co Ltd brewery and bottling plant demolished in 2018. (Vauxhall Brewery Co acquired by Wenlock Brewery in 1951).

First Clapham and Standard 3 82022 with a Waterloo to Clapham Junction empty train and light engine headcode and probably therefore ECS. 82022 featured in post #948 so that's where to go for more info.

In the far platform there appears to be a milk train which would have originated from Torrington.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks again for helpful geographical background, Dave. I'd simply not noticed the milk train.

To something rather more bucolic. These three are titled "Hayling Island 1964" which is impossible as the branch closed in November 1963. All three feature Terrier 32646, the last one including a Maunsell pull-push set. Judging by the number of people hanging out of windows this may be one of the final trains with enthusiasts doing what enthusiasts do. This loco had been a Fratton engine from 1956 until the end of November 1959 when it moved to Eastleigh. Unlikely though it may seem that allocation remained, even though the loco could not possibly have been working out of Eastleigh if on the Hayling Island branch. It was withdrawn on 4th November 1963, the day after the Hayling Island branch closed. It's now preserved on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, although I'm unaware of current status. CORRECTING UPDATES BY ADAM, MARTIN SHAW AND STEPH:

I’d lean towards ‘63 as the date going on the state of it all. 32646, now in its Isle of Wight guise as Freshwater, is currently under overhaul (it was in bits when we were there last autumn).

Adam

EDIT: PS - impossible to tell, I suspect, but might that be the fibreglass Mark 1 suburban, S1000S (which is at the East Somerset)? The remains of S6697S were/are at Swanage: SR 6697 Maunsell Brake Corridor Composite (u/frame only?) built 1935. If so, then it's notable that the whole train pictured survived into preservation and that two of the three vehicles have seen extensive use.


Adam is correct in his addendum, it is the prototype fibreglass bodied carriage S1000S. There were two Maunsell P&P sets, 618 and 619 allocated to the central division of which S6697 was the brake vehicle of 618 along with open third S1342. Both sets were disbanded early in 63, the opens going to loose stock, and the brake vehicles to Hayling Island. I would imagine closure was already in mind at the top of the SReg so I guess anything runnable would do for the last few months. It firmly dates the picture in 63, and if I may respectfully suggest Brian you alter your caption to remove the push and pull reference, cos it wasn't. I don't think there were any terrier operated P&P services in BR days and probably most of the SR era as well.
Regards
Martin

To build on that slightly - although S6697S was, indeed, one of the 1936-built 'New Window' brake thirds rebuilt as pull-push; it was noted by Mike King as being returned to loose stock and in use at Hayling Island in '63. So definitely not pull-push at this time. I confess I hadn't noticed the fibreglass-bodied coach until it was pointed out, although that's definitely what it is - and no Mk1 stock was pull-push fitted.

Steph



Brian

 

[AJC]

Classic Hayling Island shots - I’d lean towards ‘63 as the date going on the state of it all. 32646, now in its Isle of Wight guise as Freshwater, is currently under overhaul (it was in bits when we were there last autumn).

Adam

EDIT: PS - impossible to tell, I suspect, but might that be the fibreglass Mark 1 suburban, S1000S (which is at the East Somerset)? The remains of S6697S were/are at Swanage: SR 6697 Maunsell Brake Corridor Composite (u/frame only?) built 1935. If so, then it's notable that the whole train pictured survived into preservation and that two of the three vehicles have seen extensive use.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Adam. That's interesting info. It's a shame that the set number isn't showing, but somewhere I have data about the make up of the Maunsell pull-push sets so I'll try to find it!

There's a realisation crept over me that I've spent no time at all in the workshop since at least Christmas. In part that was a loss of mojo which is sort of returning but also the pressure I've put on myself to get these photos of Tim's finished. They are all scanned now - we'll, apart from another 150 or so of German railways from the early '70s that he's just turned up! I'll get to them in due course but there may be some gaps in publishing photos as I spend more time in the workshop. So far we've seen about 450 of around 4,000 so there remains a way to go!

However, for now we'll continue with some more Southern photos.

These are all "Feltham 1964" and as we go through them we'll establish whether 1964 is likely to be correct or not. There are some stonking portraits here and photos of potentially significant value to model builders, I suggest. First is Maunsell S15 30823. This is carrying a 70B shed plate (in a photo to come up a bit later) and it moved to Feltham from Salisbury in January 1964, being withdrawn at the end of November. The dating of this group is looking pretty good! It went to Cashmore's Newport and was dismantled in February 1965.



Here is S15 30497 of the Urie flavour. It has no shed plate so it is likely to have been withdrawn when this photo was taken. It had been a Feltham engine since 1950 and although withdrawn in July 1963 was not scrapped at Cohen's, Kettering until March 1964 so this could just fit in to the date window if photographed very early in the year.



I suspect that this Q1 is the one coupled to the S15 in the photo above. It's 33002, also without a shed plate. This had lived at Feltham since 1961 and was withdrawn in early July 1963. This sort of starts to make sense, as it too went to Cohen's and was scrapped in June 1964 so both could have left for the scrap yard at the same time.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

Reverting to Hayling Island, if I may. Adam is correct in his addendum, it is the prototype fibreglass bodied carriage S1000S. There were two Maunsell P&P sets, 618 and 619 allocated to the central division of which S6697 was the brake vehicle of 618 along with open third S1342. Both sets were disbanded early in 63, the opens going to loose stock, and the brake vehicles to Hayling Island. I would imagine closure was already in mind at the top of the SReg so I guess anything runnable would do for the last few months. It firmly dates the picture in 63, and if I may respectfully suggest Brian you alter your caption to remove the push and pull reference, cos it wasn't. I don't think there were any terrier operated P&P services in BR days and probably most of the SR era as well.
Regards
Martin

 

[Steph Dale]

Reverting to Hayling Island, if I may. Adam is correct in his addendum, it is the prototype fibreglass bodied carriage S1000S. There were two Maunsell P&P sets, 618 and 619 allocated to the central division of which S6697 was the brake vehicle of 618 along with open third S1342. Both sets were disbanded early in 63, the opens going to loose stock, and the brake vehicles to Hayling Island. I would imagine closure was already in mind at the top of the SReg so I guess anything runnable would do for the last few months. It firmly dates the picture in 63, and if I may respectfully suggest Brian you alter your caption to remove the push and pull reference, cos it wasn't. I don't think there were any terrier operated P&P services in BR days and probably most of the SR era as well.
Regards
Martin

To build on that slightly - although S6697S was, indeed, one of the 1936-built 'New Window' brake thirds rebuilt as pull-push; it was noted by Mike King as being returned to loose stock and in use at Hayling Island in '63. So definitely not pull-push at this time. I confess I hadn't noticed the fibreglass-bodied coach until it was pointed out, although that's definitely what it is - and no Mk1 stock was pull-push fitted.

Steph

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for putting that info right, Martin and Steph. I'd not actually made an assumption and was aware that the Hayling Island Branch didn't utilise push-pull. I was equally convinced that some of the Maunsell sets were used in conventional format too. However I'll now edit the original post to correct the info.

Three more at Feltham for today. Date remains at 1964. Standard Class 4 tank 80012 outside the shed and looking pretty reasonable. It was at Feltham from June 1963 to November 1964 when it moved to Eastleigh, thence to Nine Elms in October 1965. It was withdrawn from there in mid-March 1967 and went to Buttigieg's, Newport, where it was despatched by August the same year.



In the foreground of the full format photo below you'll notice what appears to be a broken sleeper and chipped rail at the joint. The result of a derailment, I wonder?



Standard 5 73011 was a visitor from Woodford Halse in 1964, probably arrived on a transfer freight. It moved on to Oxley in January 1965, then to Patricroft in April the same year being withdrawn in November 1967. It then went to Cashmore's, Great Bridge where it was scrapped by the end of March 1968. Nice study of an SR water crane alongside the loco.



Finally, passing Feltham, is West Country 34004, Yeovil, at the time an Eastleigh engine, moving to Bournemouth in October 1965 and lasting to the end on 9th July 1967. It was scrapped in October the same year at Cashmore's, Newport. It's carrying a Waterloo to Bournemouth West via Sway headcode.



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Chris (@ChrisBr), can you read the chairs at the bottom of the last photo? Seems to me that the on the RHS we have a mixture of steel and wood keys (fine) and one keyless chair (not good). On the LHS the chairing looks like slab and bracket at 3C followed by 4C (note wing rail key missing) followed by 5C with inside key (correct) and then 6C with another inside key (pardon... is this correct for a 6C?).

OK - this is probably a simple turnout laid with RAE fittings (slab and bracket suggest so) and not in the GWR S&C style with which you and I are familiar, however a 6C with an inside key needs some explaining.

regards, Graham

 

[oldravendale]

Does this make it any easier to see, Graham and Chris?

 

[Martin Shaw]

A little more of my ramblings around Hayling Island carriage stock. I had a look at a few other publications and I found a picture of a train with two BR 10 compartment seconds and a brake vehicle I can't identify, possibly ex LBSC since it had an arc roof. This predated the building of S1000S which means that there were other BR std carriages in use on the line and also supports Adam's point that it could be S1000 but not necessarily so, there being little visual difference between the fibreglass and steel bodied versions. It seems that when the Mk1 suburban stock was built the SR had a number of 3 car sets BS/CL/BS for use in the Exmouth area services. These proved insufficient at busy times so the SR had allocated 19 seconds, used as 18 in up to 3 loose vehicles as strengthening vehicles for the six fixed sets and a maintenance spare. This was over provision so in 1958/9 four were transferred to Hayling Island, numbers S46284,91-93. They were used indiscriminately until 1963 whe they were formed into fixed sets, supposedly S46284/6697/S46291 and S46292/6699/S46293 with S1000 used as a strengthening vehicle. I have also positively identified S46281 in a train in the bay platform at Hayling Island.
So Tim's photo could include anyone one of five almost identical vehicles, I dare not venture a suggestion.
Regards
Martin

 

[ChrisBr]

Graham (@Dog Star),

I have no expertise whatsoever in non GWR S&C practise, but all I can say, is that they (GWR) used inside keyed 6C chairs for crossing angles over 1 in 11.5.

Chris

 

[LarryG]

Flippin' heck. I must have been tired last night uploading my gallery on oldravendale's gallery! Now sorted..Soreee.

 

[Dog Star]

Chris (@ChrisBr), can you read the chairs at the bottom of the last photo? ... On the LHS the chairing looks like slab and bracket at 3C followed by 4C (note wing rail key missing) followed by 5C with inside key (correct) and then 6C with another inside key (pardon... is this correct for a 6C?).

OK - this is probably a simple turnout laid with RAE fittings (slab and bracket suggest so) and not in the GWR S&C style with which you and I are familiar, however a 6C with an inside key needs some explaining.

regards, Graham

Graham (@Dog Star),

I have no expertise whatsoever in non GWR S&C practise, but all I can say, is that they (GWR) used inside keyed 6C chairs for crossing angles over 1 in 11.5.

Explaining explained. Good answer Chris.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the comments on the track, chaps.

Larry - don't worry. It comes to all of us eventually!

More now from Feltham in 1964. I suspect these shots were very early in the year, but I continue to favour 1964. Looking at the shadows they are long and the light has a sort of crispness about it. If we feel driven towards 1963 it must have been late in the year.

Here's another Q1. 33008 had been at Feltham since October 1948 and was withdrawn at the end of August 1963. It went to Cohen's at Kettering along with several other locos from Feltham and was scrapped there in June 1964, as was 33002 in post #967.



Here's M7 30032 featuring the lady who was to become Mrs Mills in due time. The dress confirms that the weather was cold, so winter '63/64 - she was one hardy lady being dragged around engine sheds by her beau! 30032 was a Feltham engine between March 1959 and the beginning of April 1963 when it was re-allocated to Eastleigh. It was withdrawn in July 1963 and scrapped in June 1964 at P Woods (Shipbreaking), Queenborough, Kent.

I guess this must put a question mark over the dating of 1964 - maybe we are looking at the winter of '62/63. However it's also possible that Feltham was used as some sort of concentration depot for withdrawn locos. In my experience that seems rather unlikely, though, as there were plenty of withdrawn locos at Eastleigh at the time. In the circumstances, and despite my earlier protestations, I think we must be looking at 1963. In fact, having reviewed the photos the locos all seem to be in rather too good a condition to be withdrawn, complete with rods etc.



The last one here is a front view of S15 30823 which we discussed when considering the rear view in post #967.



Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I guess this must put a question mark over the dating of 1964 - maybe we are looking at the winter of '62/63.

The trees in the background of the last S15 photo suggest it's winter. either 62/63 or 63/64.

 

[LarryG]

1962-3 was a notoriously bad winter with snow and ice lingering for months on end. The sea froze in Kent. Just when you thought it was passing at last, snow fell again and temperatured plummeted.

Spring and summer were delayed as a result. Looking at the angle of the shadow beside the S15, it looks to be late April or early May.

 

[simond]

Mmmm, I’m inclined to think that the angle of the shadows is more to do with time of day than day of year...

I was only 5 in Jan 63. Short trousers. Deep snow...