Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Thank you Dave @Yorkshire Dave for all that additional shipping/train service info. That's all added to what has become a quite extensive file about those three photos.

Thanks for shortening the list of possible candidates in the photo of the unidentified Princess Coronation, Arun. Updated in the file attached to the photo.

Then Larry - an interesting observation for sure.

As for possible name connections, vehicles and gravy - thanks for lightening the mood Tim @timbowales, Simon @simond and Barry @Barry37.

Another loco we’ve seen on these pages previously, most recently in post #2804, is A1 60136 Alcazar seen here on a down York and Newcastle train at Potters Bar on 3rd June 1962. It was a Doncaster engine and had been since since April 1959 being withdrawn from there on 22nd May 1963. (SLS). It lasted barely a week thereafter being scrapped at Doncaster Works by 29th May. (BR Database).



An unidentified B1 4-6-0 on a down Cleethorpes train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962.



B1 61374 on an up Butlins Holiday Camp Express from Filey at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. The loco went to Immingham when new in 1951 where it was withdrawn in September 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, in March 1964.



Class A1 60119 Patrick Stirling on an up Newcastle Rose at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. For sure this is a named train about which I have absolutely no knowledge! The loco was based at Doncaster from August 1958 and was withdrawn in May 1964 (SLS), going to Messrs Cox & Danks at Wadsley Bridge to whom it was sold in August the same year. (BR Database)



By way of bonus pictures today are some traction engines. Good fun, traction engines, but yet another subject about which I have very limited knowledge. Comments will be appreciated.







Brian

 

[timbowales]

With my pedant's hat firmly on bonce, strictly speaking the middle photo seems to not be a traction engine but a portable engine? The towing hitch and the untyred wheels seem to point that way
Pedants hat removed.......
.

 

[simond]

The prototype is a rail beer tank - will try to find the photo

Transport & Vehicles - Simonds Family Website

Early transport by horse drawn drays was severely limited. The horses could deliver barrels a maximum radius from a Brewery of only around 12 miles in a day. This determined the catchment area of each brewery or later distribution depot. Longer distances had to be covered by canal or by train...

simondsfamily.me.uk

The wheels, and lashing points, suggest that this trailer was intended to go on a rail wagon, like the milk tankers, and I have a memory of seeing such a photo on here


(clipped from above website for illustration, copyright presumed to be with Simonds family)


no relation, of course!

S

 

[Martin Shaw]

Class A1 60119 Patrick Stirling on an up Newcastle Rose at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962

I've never heard of the Newcastle Rose nor can I find any reference to it in here
which is as about as definitive as I can get. There was however a White Rose which was a BR innovation and ran from 1949 until 1967. It was a service from KingsX, first stop Doncaster, to Leeds and Bradford. The up service left Leeds at 3.32pm calling at Wakefield and Doncaster, due into KX at 7.32pm so if Tim's photo is of it then it might be about 7.00ish in the evening. Willie Yeadon comments that it really didn't deserve named status, it was just too slow. The lack of a headboard is slightly troubling however a Doncaster engine fits with all the other photographic evidence so I think it may have just been misrecorded.
Martin

 

[timbowales]

Transport & Vehicles - Simonds Family Website

Early transport by horse drawn drays was severely limited. The horses could deliver barrels a maximum radius from a Brewery of only around 12 miles in a day. This determined the catchment area of each brewery or later distribution depot. Longer distances had to be covered by canal or by train...

simondsfamily.me.uk

The wheels, and lashing points, suggest that this trailer was intended to go on a rail wagon, like the milk tankers, and I have a memory of seeing such a photo on here

View attachment 225163
(clipped from above website for illustration, copyright presumed to be with Simonds family)


no relation, of course!

S

That's a wonderful rabbit-hole there, especially for someone who worked in Reading for 5 years and lived in North Wiltshire for forty-two years

 

[2-Bil]

Brian,
Bolstering Martin Shaw's comments re the "Newcastle Rose" theres no reference to it either in the relevent LNER/BR (E) titled express chapter in Dave Peel's Locomotive Headboards The Complete Story (2006) so it looks probable, as Martin says , that the photo was miscaptioned.
Respects Brian W

 

[John Palmer]

Last of the road engines (img 3958) I think is a Fowler General Purpose engine (what I know as an agricultural engine) probably dating from the first decade of the 20th Century.

Img 3957 is indeed a portable engine, maker unknown to me. Governor drive belt appears to be fitted and motion blur suggests the engine and governor are turning over, but there's no machinery being driven on the belt.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Further to mine and BrianW's earlier, I have found that on Tuesdays and Saturdays during the winter timetable the White Rose had a portion with a restaurant car serving the Tyne Commission Quay for the boat to Norway. This was detached at Doncaster and worked forward by the NE Region. Perhaps that's where the Newcastle reference came from, the 23rd June 1962 was a Saturday and would the winter timetable still have been in operation in June?
Martin

 

[MarkR]

I traveled to Newcastle by rail, on a school trip to Norway in the early sixties, catching the Fred Olsen vessel. I wonder if we used that train?
Mark

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

There was however a White Rose which was a BR innovation and ran from 1949 until 1967. It was a service from KingsX, first stop Doncaster, to Leeds and Bradford. The up service left Leeds at 3.32pm calling at Wakefield and Doncaster, due into KX at 7.32pm so if Tim's photo is of it then it might be about 7.00ish in the evening.

When the ECML was operated under the GNER franchise (1996-2007) the White Rose name was resurrected for a number of trains from Leeds to KX - generally those operated by Eurostar sets they had hired.

 

[Barry37]

Transport & Vehicles - Simonds Family Website

Early transport by horse drawn drays was severely limited. The horses could deliver barrels a maximum radius from a Brewery of only around 12 miles in a day. This determined the catchment area of each brewery or later distribution depot. Longer distances had to be covered by canal or by train...

simondsfamily.me.uk

The wheels, and lashing points, suggest that this trailer was intended to go on a rail wagon, like the milk tankers, and I have a memory of seeing such a photo on here

View attachment 225163
(clipped from above website for illustration, copyright presumed to be with Simonds family)


no relation, of course!

S

There's a photo here of one like this on a wagon at Didcot Railway Centre.

 

[simond]

Thanks Barry, that’s the one.

Though different, it is remarkably similar to the one I clipped out above.

Another measuring job next time I visit Didcot!

 

[AndyB]

The traction engine rally is even harder to put a location on this time.
The engine to the right of img3956 is the same as that in img3958 - it is a Fowler (as identified by John Palmer above) class B4, number 8224 of 1898. Registration HK 9982 and at some point named 'Mary'.
The engine to the left of img3956 is a compound, but I can't identify the maker.
Edit - this may be a Fowler too - it is a 4-shaft engine and the shape of the casting on top of the cylinder (domed with a flange all round) is quite distinctive, with single-lobed rear wheel hubs. Brian - if you can provide a high res close up of this engine it may be possible to make out a bit more of the registration plate, smokebox nameplate(s) and the nameplate? on the boiler side.

The portable engine (img3957) is quite a large one, maybe 10 nhp. From the shape of the crankshaft support brackets, the pump location, the beam at the front of the fore-carriage and the flywheel I think it is from Ransomes, Sims & Jefferies. There isn't a huge list of RS&J portables that survived into preservation but there is nothing more to pin-point this one at present.


Andy

 

[John Palmer]

Regarding the lefthandmost engine in img 3956, there is a lighter toned oval area to the right of the nameplate that looks right size for the large Marshall transfer. Although a manhole door is frequently found in this location, I have come across at least one picture of a Marshall engine carrying its transfer in this position, so I wonder whether this engine may have been made by that company.

...but on further thoughts, the distinctive shape of the cylinder casting has a very good match in the picture at the foot of this page of a Fowler R GP engine. Bunker and chimney shapes are a good fit too, so @AndyB coukd well be right.

 

[AJC]

Thanks Barry, that’s the one.

Though different, it is remarkably similar to the one I clipped out above.

Another measuring job next time I visit Didcot!

I think Dyson were the trailer makers (certainly they were for Guinness and, I think, United Dairies). I haven't seen an ERF ballast tractor quite like that one before!

Adam

 

[AndyB]

Regarding the lefthandmost engine in img 3956, there is a lighter toned oval area to the right of the nameplate that looks right size for the large Marshall transfer. Although a manhole door is frequently found in this location, I have come across at least one picture of a Marshall engine carrying its transfer in this position, so I wonder whether this engine may have been made by that company.

John,
Top of the cylinder is the wrong shape for a Marshall - have a look at the pictures here - Pictures of Marshall Steam Engines - Steam Scenes
I agree that the transfer appears large - but definitely wider than it is high. That initially said 'not Fowler' to me (due to the apparent overall size) - but the cylinder top is quite distinctive.

 

[Dave Holt]

Looks to have a stovepipe chimney, which rules out quite a few manufacturers who fitted capped chimneys?
Dave.

 

[Barry37]

Thanks Barry, that’s the one.

Though different, it is remarkably similar to the one I clipped out above.

Another measuring job next time I visit Didcot!

The BR Diagram for 6 wheel wagons is D1/332 - there were 18 of these. There's an outline of the road tank (Guinness). The diagram can be found in the BR drawing books on the Barrowmore MRG website here. There was a single ex-LMS wagon D1/341, and 13 other wagons, but I haven't found the diagram for these.
Langley Models do an OO kit for a similar road tank - this , £28.70, though.
Modelling (N) and prototype info here.
This is a better photo of the GWR wagon at Swindon - about halfway down the page.

 

[oldravendale]

Cor. That's a great big rabbit hole Simon and others. Really interesting but how I incorporate it in to these photos I've yet to work out.

As for the traction engine photos I'm surprised and delighted in equal measure about the detail that's come out of them. I was going to call the portable a stationary engine but as it has wheels it was clearly never going to be stationary. Thank you Tim @timbowales, John @John Palmer, Andy @AndyB and Dave @Dave Holt for all the details.

We've also built up a lot of details about that named train. Thanks to Martin @Martin Shaw, Brian W @2-Bil, Martin @Martin Shaw, Mark @MarkR, Dave @Yorkshire Dave and any other contributors I've missed.

Seen on these pages very recently is A3 60054 Prince of Wales on a down Leeds train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. Prince of Wales was allocated to Grantham in July 1957, moved to Doncaster in October 1963 and ended up at New England in November the same year where it was withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It was sold for scrap to R A King at Norwich in August 1964 and reported as scrapped in the same month. (BR Database).



A4 60029 Woodcock on an up Leeds train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. This was a Kings Cross engine at the time of the photo and had been since 1943 until June 1963 when it moved to New England. (BR Database and SLS). It was withdrawn in October and went to Doncaster Works for scrapping which was completed in January 1964. (BR Database).



A4 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower on an up York train at Potters Bar on 23re June 1962. At the time of the photo this was a Kings Cross engine and had been since October 1957. It moved to New England in June 1963 and was withdrawn in July the same year. On 27th April 1964 it was shipped to the USA and is now in the museum at Green Bay, Wisconsin. See 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower (LNER 4496, LNER 598, LNER 8 & BR 60008) This loco has previously been in post #3036.



...and to complete today a few more gratuitous traction engines.

I understand this is Foster Tractor 14378, The Iron Duke, Reg No PP7306. See Foster Tractor, 14378 "The Iron Duke", PP 7306 - Steam Scenes

​

No details known about this one.



or this one - or more.



Brian

 

[AndyB]

Img3960 is a ploughing engine - given away by the bevel gear to the left of the crankshaft - which drives via a similar bevel on a vertical shaft down to the winding drum under the boiler. A compound engine, Fowler I think (characteristic casting shape on top of the cylinder again), though what class I couldn't say.

Img3961 - No.1 is clearly a Burrell, single crank compound. I believe that is it's county registration plate attached to the side of the bunker - [edit] some other examples here and here
[/edit]
Looks like No.2 may also be a Burrell SCC, but a different size - note the rubbing blocks on the boiler sides (I ought to know if that is the correct term for them but don't....) with the drain cock pipe routed around it.

Andy