Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[simond]

That's a great big rabbit hole Simon and others. Really interesting but how I incorporate it in to these photos I've yet to work out.

Brian, sorry for the off-piste diversion, great fun but totally irrelevant!

carry on…

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Andy @AndyB once again for sorting out more and better details of the traction/ploughing engines. There's now 100% more info attached to those photos than there was previously. I'm sorry to say that there are no more generic traction engine photos for the time being although quite a few in the slides I'm scanning right now. Whether they see the light of day on this forum will be a question of whether there's a) sufficient interest and b) acceptance that we're comfortable for not everything to be railway orientated.

And Simon - Apologies not needed. It was a delightful diversion and I found it of great interest. I have two kits here of the GWR railway chassis and the Dyson trailers for my milk train and there are interesting parallels. I wonder how Dyson got from making tanker trailers to vacuum cleaners?

Britannia 70040 Clive of India on an up Cleethorpes train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. Seen previously in post #2502 and #2671 70040 was had been at Immingham since December 1960, moving to Carlisle Upperby in December 1963 and then Kingmoor in March 1964 where it was withdrawn in April 1967. (SLS). It went to J McWilliams, Shettleston where it was scrapped in November. (BR Database).



A4 60017 Silver Fox on a down Scarborough train on 23rd June 1962. This is a loco that's featured several times previously, one such reference being post #2971. It was a resident of Kings Cross where it had lived since new at the time of the photo, moving to New England in June 1963 and being withdrawn in October. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for disposal which was completed by the year end. (BR Database). Perhaps that incidental as far as Tim was concerned platelayers' hut (if that's what it is) will be a helpful prototype.



Seen previously in post #2421 A3 60050 Persimmon on an up Peterborough train at Potters Bar on 23rd June1962. This was a New England engine from June 1962, having previously been at Grantham and was withdrawn in June 1963. (SLS). It went in to Doncaster Works for cutting up in August. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

V2 60906 on an up York and Hull train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. This loco had been allocated to New England (in that state where else?) since January 1959 and was withdrawn in May 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works a month later. (BR Database).



60103 Flying Scotsman on an up parcels at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. The history of this loco is, of course, well known and it's been in these pages several times previously, for example post #2971. Suffice to say that it was a Kings Cross engine and had been since April 1957, withdrawn in January 1963. (SLS).



Seen previously in post #1954 A1 60131 Osprey on an up Leeds train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. It was an Ardsley engine at the time and had been since the May previous to the date of this photo, moving to Neville Hill in August and being withdrawn from there at the beginning of October 1965. (SLS). It went to TW Ward at Killamarsh for disposal which was complete at the end of November 1965. (Rail UK).



A3 60048 Doncaster on the down Scarborough Flyer at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. This has been seen before, for example in posts #2260 and #2953. This had been a Grantham engine since February 1959, then New England in October 1962 and back to Grantham in April 1963 where it was withdrawn in October the same year. (SLS). The now sadly defunct Rail UK refers to a withdrawal date of September 1963 and disposal at Doncaster Works the same month.



Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

The picture of Silver Fox on #4082 reminded me once more of my youth. When I visited Grantham for a day's 'spotting' 60017 was , almost without exception, on the shed yard. No doubt it was between turns but I rarely saw it on a working. Sheer co-incidence, I expect, as my visits were usually on Saturdays and service requirements were reduced at weekends. The picture on #4083 of A3 60048 Doncaster took me back to the days of it's brief allocation to Leicester GC (38C) - my local 'Eastern' line. Happy days, long gone.

Roger.

 

[oldravendale]

Well done again, Roger. These memories become more important as time passes. They are a reflection of a small part of the social history of the time.

Princess Coronation 46250 City of Lichfield on The Merseyside Express at, I believe, North Wembley on around 23rd June 1962. This has been seen in post #2794. The loco had been allocated to Carlisle Upperby since June 1958 and was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It ended up at Arnott Young, Troon, where it was scrapped in December the same year. (BR Database).



Princess Coronation 46255 City of Hereford, probably at North Wembley, on 23rd June 1962. This was allocated to Carlisle Kingmoor in April 1961 and withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Arnott Young, Troon, in December 1964. (BR Database).



Rebuilt Jubilee 45735 Comet probably at North Wembley 23rd June 1962. The loco has been in these pages a few times previously and details were in posts #1716 and #3835. 45735 had been at Edge Hill but transferred officially to Willesden at the beginning of February 1962. It was one of the locos which ended up on the GC during its dying days being withdrawn from Annesley in October 1964. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's at Great Bridge where it was disposed of in January 1965. (BR Database)



An unidentified Fairburn 2-6-4T believed to be at North Wembley on 23rd June1962. Following further advice possible 42102.



Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

I've had a guess at the Fairburn tank, the first two digits must be 42 and the last digit looks very much the same as the 2 which makes the number 42xx2. Of the 25 locos that fit that criteria, in June 62 42062 was shedded at Rugby and 42102 at Watford and they are in my view the most likely candidates. The number could be 42102, maybe convincing myself.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for that suggestion, Martin. You may well be correct - Watford provided a lot of the motive power for the locals to London.

I've been continuing to work on Tim's colour slides and suddenly there's a box of about a dozen - maybe a few more - of Betteshanger and Snowdon Colliery locos and trains in 1968. They'll be a long while getting to these pages as there remains a lot of black and white to still get through but having scanned them I'm looking forward to starting a bit of Photoshopping...

I know we've had one posting today but having just come indoors from a glorious afternoon in the garden I have half an hour which is perfect time to put up a few more pictures, so:

Another photo where Tim got it "just right". This is an unidentified Royal Scot (probably in need of your eagle eyes again, Martin) on around 23rd June 1962 at North Wembley. I read this initially as 46106, Gordon Highlander, but the smoke deflectors are, of course, wrong. 46103 was in store at Saltley and 46105 was a Polmadie engine (these are the two alternatives I considered). Edit: Suggested as possibly 46156. However of probably greater interest is the electric unit – probably one of the LMS units but possibly (unless they’d already all been withdrawn) Oerlikon stock. Fill your boots Dave @Yorkshire Dave. Edit. Now confirmed to be ex-LMS electric stock.



An unidentified Princess Coronation on a named train I can’t identify on a date around 23rd June and believed to be at North Wembley. Not much to go on there! I suspect both trains above are just visible centre left of the photo.



B1 61223 on an up special from Lincoln at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. The loco was allocated to Lincoln from March 1960 moving to Immingham in October 1963 where it was withdrawn in January 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Garnham, Harris and Elton at Chesterfield. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

I've had a guess at the Fairburn tank, the first two digits must be 42 and the last digit looks very much the same as the 2 which makes the number 42xx2. Of the 25 locos that fit that criteria, in June 62 42062 was shedded at Rugby and 42102 at Watford and they are in my view the most likely candidates. The number could be 42102, maybe convincing myself.
Martin

It should be possible to confirm that identity by means of the rivet patterns on the side tanks. The Fairburn engines had three quite different types of rivet patterns depending on where and when they were built. 42102 was built at Brighton between July and October 1950 and would have the type C tank pattern as well as a right angle [rather than curved] join with the cab at the top of the tank.

The presence of the additional rivets and the cab/tank join would appear to confirm that it is a type C tank so 42102 would seem a likely candidate.
Afternote: Where this drawing might be of interest is that neither the ex-College Models kit or the DJH Fairburn kit are able to make all types of tank without perhaps removing significant surface detail and reimplanting rivets in new positions.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Another photo where Tim got it "just right". This is an unidentified Royal Scot (probably in need of your eagle eyes again, Martin) on around 23rd June 1962 at North Wembley. I read this initially as 46106, Gordon Highlander, but the smoke deflectors are, of course, wrong. 46103 was in store at Saltley and 46105 was a Polmadie engine (these are the two alternatives I considered). However of probably greater interest is the electric unit – probably one of the LMS units but possibly (unless they’d already all been withdrawn) Oerlikon stock. Fill your boots Dave @Yorkshire Dave.

You were right the first time - it's ex-LMS electric stock. Easily identified as it's all compartment whereas Oerlikon stock was saloon.

Oerlikon stock in the London area had all been withdrawn by 1960. The ex-LMS stock seen here only had another year of service before withdrawal in 1963.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
It could be 46156 South Wales Borderer which was a Willesden engine at the time of the pic, however much of a guess on my part and does the tender tank look welded which throws an almight spanner into things?
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Arun. That makes sense (and useful info there of which I was not aware). I've done a quick edit to suggest the "possible" but the full data will be attached to the file for that photo.

Dave @Yorkshire Dave - if there is one person who'd know.... Thanks for the confirmation and an appropriate edit has been made.

Finally Martin @Martin Shaw . I'll take that as a "possible" so thank you.

By way of explanation - when searching for images it's sometimes useful to be able to do it by loco number, hence including the possibles in the descriptions. Anyway, moving on.

Seen previously in post #1940 is A3 60083 Sir Hugo on the down Norseman at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. It was a Heaton engine at the time and had been since October 1940, ending up at Gateshead in June 1963 and being withdrawn in May 1964. (SLS and BR Database). It received its trough deflectors in March 1962 at the end of a general overhaul. (SLS). It went to the delightfully named Hughes Bolckows at North Blyth where it was scrapped at the end of August 1964. (Rail UK).



Britannia 70038 Robin Hood on an up Cleethorpes train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. Seen previously in post #2554 70038 was an Immingham engine from November 1961, moving to Carlisle Upperby in December 1963 and then Kingmoor in February 1964 where it was withdrawn in August 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at J McWilliams at Shettleston in December the same year. (BR Database).



A1 60156 Great Central on an up Newcastle train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. Seen previously in post #1575 from April 1959 until February 1964 this was a Doncaster engine, moving to York and withdrawal in May 1965. (SLS). By the end of June 1965 it was scrapped at Clayton & Davie, Dunston-on-Tyne. (Rail UK). There's a new boy on the block too in terms of the unidentified Brush Type 2 which I like to think the steamer is overtaking!



Bran

 

[Roger Pound]

Brian, re #4091 - I am sure your wish was granted. The A1 should have been comfortably easing past the A1A without problem. Those Brush 2's as they were known by we earlier guys were very willing and tried hard, but fell short of certain higher levels of achievement. As an aside, I have personal memories of one with four coaches going ''over the top' on the run from Carlisle to Leeds via the S&C . Earplugs were a must - and that was inside the leading coach!
The type 2's (Class 31's) indeed did sterling work and had the benefit of many heavy modifications throughout their long lives, but that is not a matter for this thread. Apologies for the deviation.

Roger.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

A1 60156 Great Central on an up Newcastle train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. Seen previously in post #1575 from April 1959 until February 1964 this was a Doncaster engine, moving to York and withdrawal in May 1965. (SLS). By the end of June 1965 it was scrapped at Clayton & Davie, Dunston-on-Tyne. (Rail UK). There's a new boy on the block too in terms of the unidentified Brush Type 2 which I like to think the steamer is overtaking!

The Brush type 2 diesels (later class 31) were used quite early on for local services to and from KX and KX York Road/widened lines. Certainly to Hatfield, Welwyn GC and Hitchin and probably to Peterborough and Royston (later in the hands of Cravens DMUs).

At this date there were also rush hour services hauled by Brush type 2s from Moorgate to Dunstable North via Welwyn GC, Harpenden (GN) and Luton Bute Street and vice versa.

 

[oldravendale]

Another two in one day! First, though, thank you Roger @Roger Pound and David @Yorkshire Dave for refining the info about the 31s. (I know that's what they were called!) I remember them going out of Kings Cross and have photos.

Only two photos here for reasons which will become obvious very soon.

V2 60854 on a down Edinburgh relief train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. 60854 was a Kings Cross engine from July 1961 and it moved to New England in April 1963 where it was withdrawn in June. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for scrapping which was completed in October. (BR Database). There's that platelayers' hut again.



A4 60021 Wild Swan on an up parcels train from York at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. This loco has been in these pages too many times to mention, for example in posts #2279 and #3557. In March 1962 it was allocated to Kings Cross and was moved to New England in June 1963 where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1964 at Doncaster Works. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[AJC]

Another two in one day! First, though, thank you Roger @Roger Pound and David @Yorkshire Dave for refining the info about the 31s. (I know that's what they were called!) I remember them going out of Kings Cross and have photos.

Only two photos here for reasons which will become obvious very soon.

V2 60854 on a down Edinburgh relief train at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. 60854 was a Kings Cross engine from July 1961 and it moved to New England in April 1963 where it was withdrawn in June. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for scrapping which was completed in October. (BR Database). There's that platelayers' hut again.

View attachment 225459

A4 60021 Wild Swan on an up parcels train from York at Potters Bar on 23rd June 1962. This loco has been in these pages too many times to mention, for example in posts #2279 and #3557. In March 1962 it was allocated to Kings Cross and was moved to New England in June 1963 where it was withdrawn in October. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1964 at Doncaster Works. (BR Database).

View attachment 225460

Brian

That’s a lovely short parcels train behind Wild Swan. Formation looks to be, SR Bogie B, a GW Fruit D, what may be a couple of vanfits (the rear, going on the roofline, LMS), a Gresley full brake and what seems to be a Gresley passenger brake of some kind on the back.

Adam

 

[LarryG]

Out of curiosity, was the photographer using an old camera with a slow top shutter speed and fired early knowing that any later would incur speed blur?

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Adam for a really useful description of the vehicles behind 60021.

As for the camera Tim was using I can't help, Larry. All I can confirm is that it was 35mm.

Moving on now to a new sequence which I've taken some time to get in to order and provides a good record of a rail tour in progress. Regrettably some of the details provided by Tim are incorrect and where the given locations are in error I'll welcome comments to put the information right. This is the Sussex Coast Ltd using set 237, run by the LCGB on 24th June 1962. I'm grateful to Six Bells Junction for providing much of the detail here - see The Railtour Files Information about each of the locos will be provided as we get to them. There are quite a few photos but I believe are worth showing in their entirety so this will happen over a few days.

T9 (30)120 on the LCGB special, The Sussex Coast Ltd, at Waterloo on 24th June 1962. – despite being in LSWR livery the loco was still in capital stock – at the time it was allocated to Eastleigh where it had been since November 1961. (SLS). It was withdrawn from capital stock in July 1963. Further details are in 30120 (LSWR 120, SR E120, SR 120 & BR 30120)

120 took the train from Waterloo to Horsham by way of Clapham Junction, Earlsfield, Wimbledon, Surbiton, Cobham, Effingham Junction, Guildford, Cranleigh and Christs Hospital, then from Haywards Heath to Eastbourne via Plumpton, Lewes and Polegate. It was then employed in the company of M7 30055 to Rotherfield via Polegate and Heathfield. Finally it took the train single handed from Rotherfield to London Bridge via Eridge, Ashurst Junction, Forest Row, East Grinstead High Level, Oxted, Sanderstead, East Croydon, Forest Hill and New Cross Gate.



A view from the Sussex Coast Ltd with T9 (30)129 in charge near Surbiton on 24th June 1962.



Another view from the Sussex Coast Ltd but now held at signals near Guildford with (30)120 on 24th June 1962.



Still held at signals near Guildford with the Sussex Coast Ltd and (30)120 in charge on 24th June 1962.



T9 (30)120 taking water at Guildford on the Sussex Coast Ltd on 24th June 1962.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Continuing the theme:

Another of T9 120 taking water at Guildford Station on the Sussex Coast Ltd of 24th June 1962.



B4 0-4-0T 30089 at home at Guildford where it had been allocated since March 1959 on 24th June 1962. The loco was withdrawn in March 1963 (SLS) and went to Eastleigh Works where it was scrapped in May 1964. (RO).



Three of T9 (30)120 on a photostop at Cranleigh when hauling The Sussex Coast Ltd on 24th June 1962.







Brian

 

[oldravendale]

More on the Sussex Coast Ltd.

The Sussex Coast Ltd with E4 32503 and E6 32417 at Horsham on 24th June 1962. 32503 had been allocated to Brighton in September 1955 and was withdrawn in April 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works in June 1965. (RO). The E6 was also a Brighton engine but only since May 1961 and was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works in October 1963. (RO).

The two locos took the train from Horsham to Midhurst by way of Pulborough and then back from Midhurst to Pulborough.



The two locos still at Horsham, again on the Sussex Coast Ltd of 24th June 1962.



From train leaving Horsham. 32503 and 32417 in charge.



From the train this time near Christs Hospital with 32503 and 32417



The E4 and E6 possibly at Selham when working The Sussex Coast Ltd of 24th June 1962.



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Here's the E4 and E6 again possibly at Selham when working The Sussex Coast Ltd of 24th June 1962.



The Sussex Coast Ltd, hauled by 32503 and 32417 leaving Midhurst or Selham on 24th June 1962.



The Sussex Coast Ltd with 0-6-2Ts E4 32503 and E6 32417 probably running round at Midhurst on 24th June 1962.



32503 & 32417 on the pointy end of the Sussex Coast Ltd at Midhurst on 24th June 1962.



32503 and 32417 still at Midhurst and waiting to leave with the guard pointing the direction on 24th June 1962.



Brian