Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[John Palmer]

2251 0-6-0 3215 on arrival at Templecombe Upper with the 6.18 Bournemouth West to Templecombe Upper train right next to the signal box on 9th June 1962. However, this is another that doesn’t seem right. Surely the train would have reversed at Templecombe S & D and travelled up to the bay platform. Perhaps John @John Palmer can enlighten me. In any event the loco was on the Templecombe S & D allocation and was withdrawn from there in February 1963. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s. Newport, in January 1964.

View attachment 224214

Standard Class 4 2-6-0 76027 described as on the link line to Templecombe Upper from Bath on 9th June 1962 – however I believe the signal in the “off” position suggests that the train is travelling down the bank – loco going backwards so there’s probably a pilot on the other end – in order to reach the S & D and reverse towards Bournemouth West. 76027 was a Bournemouth engine from March 1962 and was withdrawn in October 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped in January 1966 at Cohen’s, Morriston. (BR Database).

View attachment 224215

Brian

I'll do my best to contribute something of value, but I'm afraid it will be far from definitive!

Neither the 1955 nor 1961 WTTs available to me disclose a service terminating at Templecombe that left Bournemouth around 6/18. The closest approach to such a train is a 1955 service dep. Bournemouth 5/18 arr.Templecombe 7/5; in 1961 this had become dep. Bournemouth 5/30 arr. Templecombe 7/1 (massive acceleration!). Once again the shadows are long and the sun well round to the west, so I wonder whether this may be the later 6/48 (SO) Bournemouth West – Bath service, which in 1961 was timed to leave Templecombe Upper at 8/50. This may better fit with the milk train pictures in Templecombe Upper Yard, which were in locations close to the spot where this photograph was taken.

I don't have any problem with a 2251 appearing in this picture, since the train, if it has come up through Dorset, will have been piloted from No.2 Junction up the spur to Templecombe Upper by a locomotive attached to what had been the rear of the train. Such pilot work was a common task for a 2251 and is what I think is being illustrated here. I think I also detect exhaust from the train engine proper above the second carriage.

I agree with @daifly that 76027 is stationary, and suggest that it is being held at No.2 Junction's “To SR Starting” signal. I think the setting is one in which the No.2 Junction signalman, having got the road to Wincanton, has pulled off all his Up line signals including his “From SR Up Inner Distant” (which is visible here showing a somewhat questionable aspect) to permit an Up train to descend the spur from Templecombe Upper with a train bound for Wincanton and beyond. That train has yet to traverse the spur from Templecombe Upper, and the No.2 Junction signalman will have to wait until the crossover from Down to Up road at the end of Templecombe Upper's Platform 3 has been restored to normal after the Up train's passage over it before he can ask the road for 76027 and its train. A problem with this theory is that there is no obvious service shown in the 1961 WTT that is likely to find its progress up the spur obstructed by a northbound train leaving Templecombe Upper. However, bearing in mind the capacity for timetable disruption to which the S&D was vulnerable, particularly on a summer Saturday such as this, it's by no means impossible that one or both of the services in this scenario were so well adrift from their timetabled paths as to bring about this unforeseen delay to 76027's train.

 

[Barry37]

This is what I get from trying to do these things off the top of my head! Thank you, Barry.

Adam

You're welcome.
Despite much time spent looking at that book (which I've owned for 20-22 years), and having made and sold kits for D1400 on the opposite page, I hadn't noticed the sack truck door on the D1377 until yesterday.

Edited to add "made and sold kits"

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for kicking off the discussion about 76027, Dave @daifly and thanks also to Adam @AJC and Barry @Barry37 for a load of interesting stuff about wagonry. Thanks too to John @John Palmer for so much info about the train movements which, although to a degree speculative explains the likely possibilities.

The next three images are the last of those on the SR/S & D at Templecombe, and what a super diversion this has proven to be. Thanks to all those who have contributed additional information. Next we'll be going to more regular haunts on the WR and ER.

An unidentified Rebuilt Merchant Navy on an Exeter to Waterloo train approaching Templecombe on 9th September 1962.



Class U 2-6-0 31792 on a Templecombe to Salisbury freight train in Templecombe Yard on 9th September 1962. The loco was allocated to Yeovil Town in February 1960 where it was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). WHTS report it was sold to Bird’s, Morriston, Swansea who sold it on or more likely transferred it to Bird’s, Bynea as reported by the LCGB who also reported it as observed intact on 13th December 1964. BR Database advise a scrapping date of the same month.



Carrying an 82C Swindon shed plate is 57XX 0-6-0PT 3758 in Templecombe Upper Yard on 9th September 1962. The loco was allocated to Swindon in April 1959 moving to Bristol Barrow Road in March 1964 and Bath Green Park in November the same year. It was stored in January 1966 and withdrawn the following March. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in August 1966. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Barry37]

Thanks for kicking of the discussion about 76027, Dave @daifly and thanks also to Adam @AJC and Barry @Barry37 for a load of interesting stuff about wagonry. Thanks too to John @John Palmer for so much info about the train movements which, although to a degree speculative explains the likely possibilities.

The next three images are the last of those on the SR/S & D at Templecombe, and what a super diversion this has proven to be. Thanks to all those who have contributed additional information. Next we'll be going to more regular haunts on the WR and ER.

An unidentified Rebuilt Merchant Navy on an Exeter to Waterloo train approaching Templecombe on 9th September 1962.

View attachment 224237

Class U 2-6-0 31792 on a Templecombe to Salisbury freight train in Templecombe Yard on 9th September 1962. The loco was allocated to Yeovil Town in February 1960 where it was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). WHTS report it was sold to Bird’s, Morriston, Swansea who sold it on or more likely transferred it to Bird’s, Bynea as reported by the LCGB who also reported it as observed intact on 13th December 1964. BR Database advise a scrapping date of the same month.

View attachment 224238

Carrying an 82C Swindon shed plate is 57XX 0-6-0PT 3758 in Templecombe Upper Yard on 9th September 1962. The loco was allocated to Swindon in April 1959 moving to Bristol Barrow Road in March 1964 and Bath Green Park in November the same year. It was stored in January 1966 and withdrawn the following March. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in August 1966. (BR Database).

View attachment 224239

Brian

Nice end view of a van in the 3758 photo. It's an LNER van from around 1932, probably with a wood underframe. The small square on the left hand side is described as a "shutter", though in photos, it looks like a plain panel: perhaps this slid aside or up to uncover a mesh vent. This feature was inherited from the NER.

 

[John Palmer]

I think I can now offer a bit more information about photograph #3224 in post #3971 showing the return of the Bailey Gate milk working and another train. In the 1955 WTT the milk train's arrival back at Templecombe had to be synchronised with the departure from Templecombe of a Down train to Bournemouth, which must be the other train to be seen in this photograph. Back in 1955 the Down train originated at Gloucester Eastgate during the summer's high season, and thereafter at Bristol. It ran as a semi-fast service over the northern part of the S&D with calls only at Shepton Mallet, Evercreech Junction and Wincanton, but from Templecombe southwards it was, with few exceptions, an 'all stations' stopping train.

The Up Bailey Gate milk train was due to reach Templecombe No.2 Junction at 5/53, where a pilot would be attached at what had been its rear, and the train would then draw forward and be held at No.2 Junction's “To SR Starting” signal, which can be seen just to the left of a telegraph pole in #3224. There it would await the arrival from Templecombe Upper of the Down Gloucester/Bristol, due at No.2 Junction at 6/7 and departing southwards over the single line into Dorset at 6/9. In #3224 this train can be seen descending towards No.2 Junction with 2251 class number 3216 acting as pilot attached to what will shortly become again the rear of the train when it resumes its southerly progress. Meanwhile the returning milk train from Bailey Gate will commence its ascent of the spur to Templecombe Upper as soon as the section becomes clear for it to do so.

The essential principle to grasp about operations at Templecombe is that every passenger train calling at Templecombe Upper required attachment of a pilot at what had been the rear of the train in every case that would otherwise have required a propelling movement over the spur connecting the Upper station with the junction with the single line at Templecombe No.2 Junction: i.e Up trains from Dorset would be piloted up the spur to Templecombe Upper, whilst Down trains from the north would be piloted from the Upper station down the spur to No.2 Junction. Sometimes it's only possible to work out what was going on by examination of the signal aspects as these trains “performed strange rites at Templecombe.”

 

[timbowales]

"performed strange rites at Templecombe"
I wonder if there was a leyline from Glastonbury anywhere near to Templecombe

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for more wagonry, Barry @Barry37. I like to think that model builders find such details of help, and indeed I believe they do.

John @John Palmer . Once again I'm in your debt for such a wonderful amount of information and for challenging the date of those September 1962 photos. Now we've finished the S & D photos I hope you'll continue to monitor these threads, find them of interest and please comment further.

As for leylines, Tim @timbowales, with the strange goings on you may, perhaps, be correct.

An unidentified 94XX pannier tank on empty stock at Old Oak Common West on 15th June 1962.



Castle class 5098 Clifford Castle on a down parcels train at North Acton on 15th June 1962. At the time, and since January 1962, the loco was based at Newton Abbot, then Carmarthen in August the same year, Llanelli in February and Old Oak Common in May, both in 1963, and finally Reading in March 1964 where it was withdrawn in the following June. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen’s, Morriston in December 1964.



Two photos here of 9F 92147 on a down freight - probably an empty mineral train - at Wood Green on 16th June 1962. The loco had been allocated to New England when new in September 1957, moved to Immingham in March 1963 where it was withdrawn in April 1965. (BR Database and SLS). It ended up at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in August the same year. (BR Database).





An unidentified V2 on the 6.32 York parcels - or is it a simple van train? - at Wood Green on 16th June 1962.



Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

Thanks for more wagonry, Barry @Barry37. I like to think that model builders find such details of help, and indeed I believe they do.

John @John Palmer . Once again I'm in your debt for such a wonderful amount of information and for challenging the date of those September 1962 photos. Now we've finished the S & D photos I hope you'll continue to monitor these threads, find them of interest and please comment further.

As for leylines, Tim @timbowales, with the strange goings on you may, perhaps, be correct.

An unidentified 57XX pannier tank on empty stock at North Acton on 15th June 1962.

View attachment 224302

Castle class 5098 Clifford Castle on a down parcels train at North Acton on 15th June 1962. At the time, and since January 1962, the loco was based at Newton Abbot, then Carmarthen in August the same year, Llanelli in February and Old Oak Common in May, both in 1963, and finally Reading in March 1964 where it was withdrawn in the following June. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohen’s, Morriston in December 1964.

View attachment 224303

Two photos here of 9F 92147 on a down freight - probably an empty mineral train - at Wood Green on 16th June 1962. The loco had been allocated to New England when new in September 1957, moved to Immingham in March 1963 where it was withdrawn in April 1965. (BR Database and SLS). It ended up at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in August the same year. (BR Database).

View attachment 224304

View attachment 224305

An unidentified V2 on the 6.32 York parcels - or is it a simple van train? - at Wood Green on 16th June 1962.

View attachment 224306

Brian

The tanks on the pannier 'unidentified 57xx' seem very deep as well as not having the radii of the 57xx class - as well as it having an 8750 type cab. Is there a possibility this might actually be a 94xx type?

 

[Lyndhurstman]

Nice end view of a van in the 3758 photo. It's an LNER van from around 1932, probably with a wood underframe. The small square on the left hand side is described as a "shutter", though in photos, it looks like a plain panel: perhaps this slid aside or up to uncover a mesh vent. This feature was inherited from the NER.

Hello,
I have no grounds for this - other than the vague recollection of reading it somewhere (and am thus probably getting it mixed up (and in) with all the other junk in my head) - but didn't the grain vans have something like this? As an inspection panel?

Cheers
Jan

 

[Barry37]

Hello,
I have no grounds for this - other than the vague recollection of reading it somewhere (and am thus probably getting it mixed up (and in) with all the other junk in my head) - but didn't the grain vans have something like this? As an inspection panel?

Cheers
Jan

The "shutter", bolt heads and strapping are an exact match for the LNER 12 ton van. It could be one of the vans built in 1934, which were 10ft wheelbase, with identical end detail.
LNER 20ton Grain Vans, and GWR V20 Grain Vans (both hoppered inside) had small glazed windows high up on the ends, to see if they were empty and check the load level when filling.

 

[SimonT]

Deffo a 94. Back of the class please Dale

 

[Osgood]

Image 3232 - "Spaceship and Beanpoles"

Lovely how in this era all manner of odd strips of potentially fertile ground were turned into vegetable manufactories.

There's a nice story somewhere of a brake van that was left in a siding on the Mid Suffolk and kind of forgotten about - when C&W eventually came looking for it they found the verandas full of tomato plants....

 

[James Spooner]

Image 3232 - "Spaceship and Beanpoles"

Lovely how in this era all manner of odd strips of potentially fertile ground were turned into vegetable manufactories.

There's a nice story somewhere of a brake van that was left in a siding on the Mid Suffolk and kind of forgotten about - when C&W eventually came looking for it they found the verandas full of tomato plants....

Yes, I guess it was probably a hangover from the wartime “dig for victory” exhortation…

Nigel

 

[LarryG]

Yes, I guess it was probably a hangover from the wartime “dig for victory” exhortation…

My grandad G. had chickens in his front garden until the early 1950's. Chicken food in a bucket smelt soooo good.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Arun and Simon for correcting my error in identification. It is, after all, a GWR pannier tank and they all look the same, don't they? Anyway, for the purists I've edited the description accordingly.

Thank you Jan @Lyndhurstman and Barry @Barry37 for more particulars on that van (and others).

Thanks to all as well for the thoughts and comments about allotments, chickens and such.

On 16th June 1962 an unidentified B1 on an up parcels - or perhaps another van train - at Wood Green.



28XX 2-8-0 2861 on an up freight at Old Oak Common West on 15th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Severn Tunnel Junction in January 1959 where it was withdrawn in March 1963. It went to Barry for disposal and although not preserved as such is being used as a donor for new build projects. See 2861





King 6022 King Edward III on a down Birmingham train at North Acton on 15th June 1962. 6022 was allocated to Stafford Road from July 1959 and was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). It was sold for scrap to Cox and Danks at Oldbury in early June 1963. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[AJC]

Thanks again for sharing these, Brian. The B1 at Wood Green is hauling an up (so presumably loaded), fish working. All the vans are various forms of LNER or LNER-derived fish vans, a mix of insulated and non-insulated types. That explains the parcels headcode.

The pair of images of the 28xx are just lovely, too.

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Adam @AJC. That explains all! Looking back at these photos from half a century ago makes one realise the broad range of products carried by the railways. I remember fish trains. The delightful aroma when they'd passed.....

County Class 1010 County of Caernarvon on the Kensington to Whitland milk empties at North Acton on 15th June 1962. The County was allocated to Swindon from October 1959 and was withdrawn in July 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in December 1964. (BR Database).



The same County, 1010 County of Caernarvon, light engine at Old Oak Common West on 15th June 1962.



Castle Class 5099 Compton Castle on an up Worcester train at North Acton on 15th June 1962. At the time this was a Cardiff Canton loco and had been since August 1958. In February 1962 it moved to Worcester and the following October to Gloucester Horton Road where it was withdrawn in February 1963 (SLS) going to R A King, Norwich, where it was scrapped in September the same year.



Modified Hall Class 6997 Bryn-Ivor Hall on a down fitted freight at Old Oak Common West on 15th June 1962. This loco was last seen in Post #2075. It was a Bristol Bath Road loco at the time and has been since April 1957, then moving to Bristol Barrow Road from where it was withdrawn in November 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at R S Hayes/Birds, Tremains Yard, Bridgend in February 1965. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[timbowales]

"I remember fish trains. The delightful aroma when they passed...."
In my working career I experienced something much worse. Working on the modernisation of the Kowloon Canton Railway in Hong Kong in the early 80's one through train from mainland China that was dreaded was the daily train of live pigs. The stench was awful and persistent.

 

[Dog Star]

County Class 1010 County of Caernarvon on the Kensington to Whitland milk empties at North Acton on 15th June 1962. The County was allocated to Swindon from October 1959 and was withdrawn in July 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in December 1964. (BR Database).

Brian,

The caption worries me a tad here for if the empties had come from Kensington and were destined for Wales then why take the route between Wood Lane and Greenford rather than continuing north towards Mitre Bridge and then join the GW main line at the eastern end of OOC yard (giving access to the down lines towards Reading)?

I wonder if the destination is somewhere to which use of the New Line is natural... for example mid-Wales?

Rgds, Graham

 

[Osgood]

"I remember fish trains. The delightful aroma when they passed...."
In my working career I experienced something much worse. Working on the modernisation of the Kowloon Canton Railway in Hong Kong in the early 80's one through train from mainland China that was dreaded was the daily train of live pigs. The stench was awful and persistent.

Rabbit hole alert:


Don't suppose you ever came across the name Col. Kenneth Cantlie by any chance?
He had a huge involvement, starting in the 1930s, in the rebuilding of China's war-torn railway system.
I imagine this would have included the Kowloon Canton stretch at some period.
I had the great pleasure of meeting him on two occasions at The Crewe Dinner, although at the time I did not fully appreciate his achievements.

The Kenneth Cantlie Archive - National Railway Museum blog

Cantlie Project Archivist Leena Lindell shares the story of a man who travelled the world and carved his career in the railways of three continents.

blog.railwaymuseum.org.uk